Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes, I know that the reason for this is because developers think games with female leads won't sell. I know. We all know. That doesn't mean it's good, right, or okay, or that we shouldn't talk about it.

Well...it does mean it's not really "censorship" though, save in perhaps the most egregiously far reaching interpretation of the word. This is the same kind of loose interpretation of language that has people claiming criticizing a game or industry is the same as "censoring" it.

 

[Olikar]

I don't fucking believe it... I had responses to all 3 of my responders and just as I was reaching the end and about to post my browser crashed.

I'm literally dead inside right now. Fuck it, there is no such thing as sexism, it's all made up and industry and community are tearing itself asunder for the larf.

Now I'm going to lie down, for a long, long time.

Ha man I feel for you, that's happened to me several times before.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

 

[nuttshell]

To all people who constantly are saying that feminism is this and that

You ahve people among the movement who are much more extreme and have large following, People who are not for dialogue, are violent and deny and possibility of other poeple having problems or having different opinion. Often all in one package. And those people are the ones who are most out there and most visible.

Wow! 11 pages untill someone finally made this point clear. The general ideas of feminism actually sound pretty good to me. There are many people who tend to shout stupid bullshit in everybody's face and some of them use the label of whatever noble cause seems to be the point of origin of their bullshit to protect themselves from criticism and further their cause like Anita. Many feminists disagree with people shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGdmmPGKfkg

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

I'd say there are 2 factors that make that apparent. People naturally get defensive about things they like, and people automatically get more aggressive when others get defensive. So the frustration for all camps escalates.

The problem at this point is that, as a result of all the controversies, people have taken sides. So there isn't really a discussion as much as a wrestling match to see who falters first. That is an incredibly poor method for approaching issues.

This results in extremes in both parties, one in which people are convinced that there is no problem just a bunch of people swept up by the current trends and the other that thinks anyone who isn't decidedly in favour of feminism MUST be a bigot.

Or at least, there is some illusion that this is the case. And that feeds back into the first problem which widens the gap between both extremes, further complicating the discussion and frustrating everyone else to boot.

I know it's hypocritical to say at this stage, but I think everyone needs to walk away from this for the moment and let the rivalries subside. We're all just shouting at brick walls for the most part. I could have something perfectly valid to say, but because another person conveyed the same point but badly, people will reject the point thinking they've heard that tune before and have filed it away as bullshit. That goes both ways.

Also, about that point of the BI ad. You are right that it sold the actual game side to the game pretty well. Watching it gives you a good idea of what to expect even if it's pre-rendered. It just didn't do anything for the narrative, which was the games strongest point (the gameplay being the absolute weakest).

That is another difficulty when it comes to discussing something that has such subtle influences like sexism in any social space. It can be so intertwined with everything we become accustomed to that we struggle to both see, discern and explain the things that are problematic (let alone offer solutions), without sounding like we are jumping at ghosts or trying to dismantle what actually DOES work and leave nothing but a rickety husk behind.

I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall on this subject. It's not doing me, nor the person I'm sparring with, any freaking favours. And when I get frustrated, I end up blocking valid criticism in my ire.

This needs to be both approached delicately, but also engaged over the wider community... and it just seems that those 2 things are impossible to bring together.

 

[carnex]

To all people who constantly are saying that feminism is this and that

You ahve people among the movement who are much more extreme and have large following, People who are not for dialogue, are violent and deny and possibility of other poeple having problems or having different opinion. Often all in one package. And those people are the ones who are most out there and most visible.

Wow! 11 pages untill someone finally made this point clear. The general ideas of feminism actually sound pretty good to me. There are many people who tend to shout stupid bullshit in everybody's face and some of them use the label of whatever noble cause seems to be the point of origin of their bullshit to protect themselves from criticism and further their cause like Anita. Many feminists disagree with people shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGdmmPGKfkg

I must say that I have bunch of problems with Feminist movement but most of all you can't have equality by adressing problems of one side going even to levels of giving taht movement power of deciding what equality is (in Canada for example). When one has power unchecked, even if it has best of intention, it will abuse it one time or another. We can't be objective without having counterweight to stop us from steering off.

But that is off topic.

--

We can have discussion, but I will not have one on grounds that censorship is needed, sexually charged representation of women is somehow wrong unless intended as insult and blaming whole selfidentifying group for incidents coming from small subset.

We can talk about quaility and amount of representation of women, inclusivnes, organized exclusion of guility parties and positive actions of women to include themself not waiting for silver plater.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I thought someone a few pages back explained this really well. There is a difference between subjective criticism (I, personally don?t like the depiction of a certain things or ?I don?t like the art style?.) and moral criticism that claims moral superiority over your opponents and tries to paint them as the bad people instead of someone with a different opinion.

Pointing out that, say, Dragon Age indulges in pandering or that Dragon's Crown appears to be guilty of objectification is in no particular way a "moral criticism". It's calling a spade a spade. I've never understood the ass clenching fury a certain demographic of the gaming community experiences every time one of these criticisms is levied against a title they enjoyed. Or didn't enjoy. It doesn't really seem to matter. I liked Django Unchained, but when Spike Lee complains about it being disrespectful, I don't immediately presume Spike is an idiot or a PC whackjob out to spoil my good time. It's just criticism of the medium. Any and ALL artistic mediums should not only be open to criticism of this nature, they should welcome it.

You see, because in that case it?s not just your opinion clashing with that of your opponent (?I like sexy/large breasted girls? or ?There should be no/less sexy/large breasted girls in gaming?) but you are fighting for a higher moral goal altogether which is above you and thus artists which employ these techniques are suddenly not just artists whose work you don't like, but "14 year old boys", "misogynists" and "sexist pigs".

We all indulge in a little hyperbolic name calling from time to time in these forum discussions when we're feeling impatient or lazy, but you are correct...it is not a good foundation for any kind of reasoned argument. I'm not sure who the "you" in this analogue is meant to be however. If it's individuals, great. If it's a collective, then you are generalizing at best.

It?s kind of like the holy crusades, if you believe that you are on a mission from god to eradicate the infidels you feel justified in whatever you do or say and believe yourself in the right on moral grounds alone.

Actually it's nothing like the Crusades at all, unless you feel that millions of people being murdered for their religious beliefs is a fair analogy for some gamers having their hobby criticized.

In this case the enemies aren?t ?infidels?, but these evil sexists/misogynists that like sexy women or certain kind of media which should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

Bit of a straw man, chum.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

I'd say there are 2 factors that make that apparent. People naturally get defensive about things they like, and people automatically get more aggressive when others get defensive. So the frustration for all camps escalates.

The problem at this point is that, as a result of all the controversies, people have taken sides. So there isn't really a discussion as much as a wrestling match to see who falters first. That is an incredibly poor method for approaching issues.

This results in extremes in both parties, one in which people are convinced that there is no problem just a bunch of people swept up by the current trends and the other that thinks anyone who isn't decidedly in favour of feminism MUST be a bigot.

Or at least, there is some illusion that this is the case. And that feeds back into the first problem which widens the gap between both extremes, further complicating the discussion and frustrating everyone else to boot.

I know it's hypocritical to say at this stage, but I think everyone needs to walk away from this for the moment and let the rivalries subside. We're all just shouting at brick walls for the most part. I could have something perfectly valid to say, but because another person conveyed the same point but badly, people will reject the point thinking they've heard that tune before and have filed it away as bullshit. That goes both ways.

Also, about that point of the BI ad. You are right that it sold the actual game side to the game pretty well. Watching it gives you a good idea of what to expect even if it's pre-rendered. It just didn't do anything for the narrative, which was the games strongest point (the gameplay being the absolute weakest).

That is another difficulty when it comes to discussing something that has such subtle influences like sexism in any social space. It can be so intertwined with everything we become accustomed to that we struggle to both see, discern and explain the things that are problematic (let alone offer solutions), without sounding like we are jumping at ghosts or trying to dismantle what actually DOES work and leave nothing but a rickety husk behind.

I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall on this subject. It's not doing me, nor the person I'm sparring with, any freaking favours. And when I get frustrated, I end up blocking valid criticism in my ire.

This needs to be both approached delicately, but also engaged over the wider community... and it just seems that those 2 things are impossible to bring together.

Yeah, you're right. I think a problem is that there are too few really good voices out there in the midst of this conversation. The most prominent person seems to be Anita, and the divisiveness surrounding her is not helpful at all. Jim Sterling sometimes does a good video, but he really seems to only excel when he's calling out stupidity for what it is, and doesn't handle very delicate topics all that well.

Although if you're interested here's a post on objectification that kind of complicates the issue, although it looks at it through a D&D lens, which is something I'm not too familiar with: http://nagorascorner.blogspot.com/2012/07/chainmail-burqa.html

But yeah, all of this is a rather deep issue and more yelling doesn't seem to help.

 

[Sofus]

To hell with equality, the word has been tainted so much that is has lost all meaning.... I want uniformity.

 

[carnex]

To hell with equality, the word has been tainted so much that is has lost all meaning.... I want uniformity.

When you say equality, everyone instaltly thinks "women should be treated better" when infact they should be thinking "we need to get rid of these stupid gender specefic words".

I don't want uniformity. It's stupid to have uniformity when we are not the same. And uniformity has the same problem as equality, too vague.

For example when we talk about equality there are 3 main ways social equality could be looked upon

- Equal Opportunities - set the demands, best suited candidate does it. (what I want)
- Equal Chances - set ground rules adapted to abilities of individuals or group (I think this begins to stink, but can be good in some areas.)
- Equal Representation - set ratio of representation of each group, best suited candidate of EACH group get it with no merit between groups (what Feminists demand in male dominated areas, for me this is smells like outhouse on wet and hot summer day)

Just like sexism doesn't actually mean what people use it for, plus in its definition stands unreasonable demand (dictionary.com)

1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. (indicates that traditional roles are bad by default. It can be used as tool of oppression, but if one models his life or writes character in one that person isn't comiting some sin)
2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. (good part, only part I don't like is need to single out women. We are WAY part the need for that)

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Sad stuff that sounds really sad

I've been reading your posts, and for the most part I generally agree with you. (Although in defense of the BI trailer, it did give a decent depiction of the gameplay while not being actual gameplay footage, which is rare. It just took out like nearly every story element, but I think the story would have been mutilated if only given 30 seconds in an ad meant to show gameplay.)

I just think that the argument over whether or not there is sexism in the industry is an unhelpful one, because even just labeling it all as sexism can be taken as just a beginning, although the temptation is to call it an end. The discussion that needs to take place is how to make things better.

And you get some of this. The Anita Sarkeesian threads have been getting a little better as time has gone on, but that does not mean that everyone agrees with her. There are many people that agree with her points, but find them to be relatively simplistic and badly made.

But that's just my take. Saying something is sexist is all too easily taken as the final word when really it's just saying that there is a problem that needs to be discussed.(I'm in college right now, that sort of thing happens all the time here)

I'd say there are 2 factors that make that apparent. People naturally get defensive about things they like, and people automatically get more aggressive when others get defensive. So the frustration for all camps escalates.

The problem at this point is that, as a result of all the controversies, people have taken sides. So there isn't really a discussion as much as a wrestling match to see who falters first. That is an incredibly poor method for approaching issues.

This results in extremes in both parties, one in which people are convinced that there is no problem just a bunch of people swept up by the current trends and the other that thinks anyone who isn't decidedly in favour of feminism MUST be a bigot.

Or at least, there is some illusion that this is the case. And that feeds back into the first problem which widens the gap between both extremes, further complicating the discussion and frustrating everyone else to boot.

I know it's hypocritical to say at this stage, but I think everyone needs to walk away from this for the moment and let the rivalries subside. We're all just shouting at brick walls for the most part. I could have something perfectly valid to say, but because another person conveyed the same point but badly, people will reject the point thinking they've heard that tune before and have filed it away as bullshit. That goes both ways.

Also, about that point of the BI ad. You are right that it sold the actual game side to the game pretty well. Watching it gives you a good idea of what to expect even if it's pre-rendered. It just didn't do anything for the narrative, which was the games strongest point (the gameplay being the absolute weakest).

That is another difficulty when it comes to discussing something that has such subtle influences like sexism in any social space. It can be so intertwined with everything we become accustomed to that we struggle to both see, discern and explain the things that are problematic (let alone offer solutions), without sounding like we are jumping at ghosts or trying to dismantle what actually DOES work and leave nothing but a rickety husk behind.

I really do feel like I'm banging my head against a wall on this subject. It's not doing me, nor the person I'm sparring with, any freaking favours. And when I get frustrated, I end up blocking valid criticism in my ire.

This needs to be both approached delicately, but also engaged over the wider community... and it just seems that those 2 things are impossible to bring together.

Yeah, you're right. I think a problem is that there are too few really good voices out there in the midst of this conversation. The most prominent person seems to be Anita, and the divisiveness surrounding her is not helpful at all. Jim Sterling sometimes does a good video, but he really seems to only excel when he's calling out stupidity for what it is, and doesn't handle very delicate topics all that well.

Although if you're interested here's a post on objectification that kind of complicates the issue, although it looks at it through a D&D lens, which is something I'm not too familiar with: http://nagorascorner.blogspot.com/2012/07/chainmail-burqa.html

But yeah, all of this is a rather deep issue and more yelling doesn't seem to help.

It's an interesting read all right, but I think he misses the point towards the end. While there is an element that wants to treat scantily clad women as some sort of sexist male fetish that should be shunned, the real meat of the issue is how they are depicted, not how they are designed.

I find this to be a great way of illustrating the problem:

See black widow in the back? In the film she is a very competent fighter rivalling that of hawkeye (but not the super frontmen Cap, Hulk, Ironman and Thor) and an expert manipulator. The latter quality can be construed as sexist by some (women using their "feminine charms" to get ahead of men) but for the fact that she uses it as a tool, not as a core part to her character.

In that picture, where Ironman is taking flight and firing his high tech gadgetry, Cap is taken his iconic heroic pose with shield held high, Hawkeye exerting himself as he draws his bows, Thor pounding the ground with his god like powers and the hulk... hulking out?

Then there is black widow. Pulling some odd pose, making sure to illustrate a bit of side boobage and the crevice of her ass. What's her abilities again? Flexibility? Sexyness? Oh yeah, she's a top class agent with advanced martial arts training and almost scoiopathic levels of subversion. I'm not too sure how you can illustrate the latter in a still image, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with her Tits or Ass.

Now here is a parody image:

They are all, technically doing the same thing, except the hulk, but the poses completely change the focus. Ironman is still taking flight and firing his lazors, Thor is still pounding the grounding with his god like strength and magical doohicky, Cap is still centre stage with his shield held high...

But, it looks totally bizarre. Aside from the fact that it is deliberately cartoonified for the sake of driving home the satire, it has a completely different impact on the viewer.

Now look at Black Widow. She is essentially just as descriptive about her abilities as before (seriously, how do you illustrate cunning? I'm an artist, I should know...) but not as provocative as before (this while still in the same tight fitting clothes and still a smoken hot red head).

As an aside, you will need a ton of brain bleach to remove the visual image of Hulk pulling a "goatsie" (if you don't know what that is, don't google it... it's a graphic image of a man who is actively gaping his anus)

I'm terrified that that last image might have blocked embedding. Hopefully it's nothing graphic put in its place.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

--

I'm kind of bised towards PCs. I build and maintain them and computer networks for my livelihood...

As for girl power games, they are here. But mostly in non-action genres. They went where gamers went unfortunately. Hope that Mirror's Edge 2 doesn't flop like first one or I see another drought of female action heroes in games.

But I wish women would stop talking and start working on this problem. Game creating process has no sex bias. Some of most celebrated game designers of all times were women.

And don't underestimate indie games. I'm not sure what you meant by "meat", but they are just as fun and, more often than not, even more thought provoking and intelligent that AAA titles.

I can certainly understand why you'd favor PCs.

Where the girl power games went was generally off the radar, largely. At least to a console gamer.
I honestly think if Mirror's Edge 2 flops it won't be because of the game, rather names attached to it, one rather polarizing, and exclusivity to PC and Xbone.
Of course that won't free the female protagonist from blame no matter how good the game actually is.

Women face the sme problems in the gaming industry as they do elsewhere, stuff that I don't really care to go into. They can get into the industry, but there's obstacles women alone face.

I know indie games can scratch some itches, and I'm fairly aware of the more prominent indie games and the one that make it to console. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying that I can't sustain myself off them. they're worth getting into if one can, though.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

snip

The point is this is not how we depict heroic poses. They are fighting an armada of alien invaders... not putting on a strip tease.

AND AGAIN, FOR FUCK SAKE THIS ISN'T ANTI-SEXY! Yeah, so the fuck what if Thor takes a hot shower? He still at some point dons his armour and wields his hammer to kick some villainous ass. The same is true for blackwidow. We get some cheeky cheesecake, but we also see her take out a horde of marauding aliens and fool a trickster god.

Now if Thor was in his bath towel on the promotional posters, then we would have a different issue wouldn't we...

The problem with a static image is that it is meant to describe as much as possible in a single moment of time. It doesn't have the virtue of film where we see a progression and context take shape.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Spoiler

Niin during the game wasn't particularly sexualized. I've played it form start to finish. Still, she didn't get her heterosexual relationship as it was on the chopping block along with Nilin's gender.
Also, check the box art. (spoiler code for size concerns)

Spoiler

I mean they couldn't have tried/used:

Spoiler

I can agree that the new Tomb raider seems like a step in the right direction as far as a relatively normal woman's portrayal, Lara seemingly being modeled after a model, aside. Still she does breathe in a loud, somewhat moaney way. Watch some gameplay on youtube. I mean it's kinda natural, but I can see why people would be inclined to bring it up.
Heck, I usually have Lara in her Aviatrix outfit which has her in pants (IIRC), and a bomber jacket. Bomber Jackets are cool. Lara's getting a sequel in the works.
The Last of Us as you get to play as Ellie briefly kinda helps bridge the gap.
Then there's 2 souls that seems to be sane in their portrayal of women.
CoD, and X-com Enemy Unknown are pretty good about military women.
Upcoming Mirror's Edge 2 might be nice.
The upcoming game Transistor will seemigly have a sanely dressed woman.
While things are getting better a bit, how far, and how long it lasts is something I cannot be sure of at all.

Thing is, Dragon's Crown, the upcoming Bayonetta Sequel, and a lot of games still have women in sex object clothes more than anything despite the strength of character. There's nothing wrong with it to me, and it seems like there's some slow crawls towards equalibrium in representation, but it still feels like the norm same as before. Maybe things are going to change, and I'll at least have less, and less reason to populate these threads as the rarity of a female playable character will go away, and I can buy more than a handful of games per year, and be happy?

One side of me aknowledges Deadpool being pretty juvenille. The other side of me has been a Deadpool fan for years, so I don't care, and still want the game. <.< Wouldn't hurt if they got his alternate universe female self out there as DLC, but still, I respect Deadpool.

Fighting games, as I've stated before, seem to represent a decent goal towards representation of women. Women make up a good chunk of the cast, and they're pretty varied in style.

Yes, Soul Calibur gets flak for the gradual sexualization of Ivy, and Sophitia(sp?) and Taki, and her protoge, but some women are actually dressed decently, aren't they?

People like pointing out Mai Shiranui from King of Fighters as a "problem" but they overlook King, Leona, Yuri, Athena, Whip, Kula, and well, pretty much every other woman in the series that doesn't dress like Mai. And even considering that, Mai -owns- who she is. She dresses like that to screw with people, and go after Andy Bogard(sp?).
Street Fighter's a bit murkier. It seems like every last woman is dressed to to make guys drool, and some ladies if they're into that. <.<

Dead Or alive is pretty murky like Street Fighter, but there's alternate outfits. Problem is they don't really get screen time, so you can imagine it has a rep with sexualization.

I'm just saying, you look at the women of fighting games, and you look at the women of gaming in general, and it seems to me like that there's the best variety in videogames, and there has been for years.
The plots are wafer thin, sure, but still, there's a lot of variety in fighting games.

Captcha: I have fallen
And I can't get up!... well, more like I dun wanna get up. <.< *Gets lazy.*

I'm not a huge fighting game fan, but there's examples on both sides, right? you mention street fighter, but i find Chun Li a lot less sexualised than Ivy from Soul Calibur.

I don't think the problem is sexualisation in itself. almost every form of media had sexualised/fanservicy characters and lowbrow content. the problem is variety. And in that sense there has been a movement towards more games with better plot, and better female characters. In fact, its remarkable how much of a stink there's been around Dragon's crown, and the Hitman trailer before that. It's a sign of change that there's been so much discussion about these things in recent times. Something like Dragons Crown or Bayonetta have their place like pulpy movies and books have, and that's a good thing. Occasionally we all want to see a stupid blockbuster or trashy tv series. That doesn't in itself change the value of a deeper, more meaningful work in the same medium.

I can't say I've seen a whole lot of outright pretty boys aimed to be fan service to women in the big picture of fighting games, or western gaming in general. In asia, it's another story we rarely ever see in the west.

I agree Chun Li is pretty modest by today's standards, and especially compared to Ivy.

I agree with you on the case of variety, or rather the lack there of in terms of games, and media in general than the sexulization in itself. I just feel that the reason games are focused on so much is because they're the most common offenders.
I wholly agree we need the "popcorn flicks" abnd the "So bad, it's good" stuff, and low brow stuff as much as the opposites. In a good balance, these 2 opposites can exist in harmony.

 

[carnex]

--

Do you agree that men and women, or male audience and female audience, see different representations of prefered gender as desirable?

If you do not, take just one erotic magazine for men and one erotic magazine for women and take a look at content. They are nothing like each other. It's all about symbolism and contextualization. Men like some things, women like other things (of course talking as general preferences). Why look at things from one perspective only?

I am ready to put down my month's paycheck that man and women would find characters on original poster far more desirable than if they took poses in likeness of parody poster. If women prefered to see superheroes in cute or cute and sexy poses you can bet thor, at the very least, would be in one and ironman would not be in suit.

 

[carnex]

I can certainly understand why you'd favor PCs.

Where the girl power games went was generally off the radar, largely. At least to a console gamer.
I honestly think if Mirror's Edge 2 flops it won't be because of the game, rather names attached to it, one rather polarizing, and exclusivity to PC and Xbone.
Of course that won't free the female protagonist from blame no matter how good the game actually is.

Women face the sme problems in the gaming industry as they do elsewhere, stuff that I don't really care to go into. They can get into the industry, but there's obstacles women alone face.

I know indie games can scratch some itches, and I'm fairly aware of the more prominent indie games and the one that make it to console. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying that I can't sustain myself off them. they're worth getting into if one can, though.

Didn't know Mirrors Edge 2 won't come to PS4. Seems strange to me.
Giant bomb lists it as PC/XBONE/PS4...

Yea, it won't be easy. But look at Studio Clover. All female manga/anime studio (i heard they included some men as aditional workers when they grw really big). Highly sucsessful. It can be done.