Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[wulf3n]

How exactly does that create the problem?

It comes down to someone claiming a problem exists and needs to be addressed, which is all fine and dandy, but if I'm going to believe said problem exists I'm going to need evidence. Why it's a problem will be explained more below.

Because as Tanakh stated it, he seemed to think through twist of logic that she must think video games cause violence and therefore the ones that do must be banned.

It's a bit of a stretch I'll admit but what Anita says does come off as "Games contribute to a culture that contributes to violence against women"

It's not illogical to assume that one would want to prevent contribution to a culture that contributes to violence. While I believe ban is the wrong word I do believe she does want games to stop "casting men as aggressive and commanding and framing women as subordinate and dependent"

The argument he'd been having seemed to be about his claim that she wanted to censor things. I'm not seeing how you complaining about a lack of supporting evidence means she wants to censor or ban things.

Again I think censorship is the wrong word, but my complaint about the lack of supporting evidence relates to the idea that if i'm going to accept someone who wants games to avoid certain tropes because of their negative contribution to society then I'm going to need proof that these tropes do have a negative contribution.

 

[Olikar]

They seemed a very flimsy support to jump all the way to saying it means video games increase violence against women and then him jumping to saying it means logically she must want those games banned.

Saying it's 'dangerously irresponsible' to create certain types of games, doesn't seem like a far leap from censorship to me.

She's saying it has a negative cultural influence it seems. Not that it increases violence towards women.

But she clearly implies these cultural attitudes contribute to violence towards women (directly or indirectly.) For example she cites how domestic violence is often blamed on the victim, she says this is because of myths based on subconscious cultural attitudes towards women (I.E they where asking for it.)

Also it's worth noting that even if you don't agree with the conclusion that she thinks the portrayal of women in vidya causes violence towards women most of what she does directly state e.g 'it tends to reinforce the dominant gender paradigm which casts men as aggressive and commanding and frames women as subordinate and dependent.' is complete, unsubstantiated drivel.

 

[wulf3n]

Good for you! Now why the fuck is that now my problem just because I disagree with the conclusion that she's accusing it of causing violence and clamoring for censorship? So many rabid anti-Sarkeesian people here apparently they'll jump on anything without looking closely.

When did I state that it was your problem?

It is illogical to jump to saying she wants censorship. Clearly she wants it dealt with. However to pull out that she wants censorship is clear fiction. Scream all you like about how she is saying there is a problem, none of that has said anything about what she thinks is the proper solution and how it is to be reached.

When did I ever say she want's censorship?

I don't really care about your sense of self-importance here. It does not, in any way, make your demand for evidence for her claims relevant to what I was saying because I was not supporting her claims.

When did I say you were supporting her claims?

You've completely misunderstood everything I said.

I was showing that Anita' use of vague language contributes to the misunderstanding that she want's to censor games, and the lack of evidence only reinforces the "rant" nature of her videos. I was agreeing with you that there's nothing to indicate that she want's censorship however I can see why people would think that.

I think you need to take a step back from this thread, it can't be doing any favours to your health.

 

[wulf3n]

Evidence of her claims doesn't matter at all to the topic of whether she is for censorship.

It affects the perception of those who believe she is for censorship, so I would argue it does matter to the topic of whether she is for censorship.

And I point out that there is no censorship because you try to say you can see why people would think that.

Yes all my posts were trying to show why people would perceive their to be a call for censorship.

So I point out that it really is not at all reasonable to jump to it.

I never said it was, merely that it is an easy conclusion to come to.

It's people who go around complaining about Anita at me when I'm simply saying that what she says does not imply what he said that are annoying me, not the thread itself.

When you start jumping down the throats of those that are agreeing with you it's about time to take a breather.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

How exactly does that create the problem?

It comes down to someone claiming a problem exists and needs to be addressed, which is all fine and dandy, but if I'm going to believe said problem exists I'm going to need evidence. Why it's a problem will be explained more below.

Good for you! Now why the fuck is that now my problem just because I disagree with the conclusion that she's accusing it of causing violence and clamoring for censorship? So many rabid anti-Sarkeesian people here apparently they'll jump on anything without looking closely.

Hhm... I'll admit that my response too you was to quick. That was the fault of myself. I hope that you'll forgive my brashness.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Playboy and Playgirl look quite a lot alike to me.

Apparently, some people will never see the point until men are objectified and demeaned every bit as much and as often as women have been. So, that is what I am rooting for. If you have to literally have your nose rubbed in shit for you to understand what shit is, then BATHE in it!

I no longer care if it is also sexist or just as bad or even worse. If this makes me an evil person, then so be it. I am evil,

When I first started reading/commenting on these "feminism in games" threads I thought it was a relatively simple and benign thing to say "Hey could we get some more games that don't have gratuitous heterosexual male sex appeal and/or use women as a quest item?" But apparently not. Apparently the glue that holds the universe together is giving adolescent-minded heterosexual gamer nerds exclusive consideration when making games, and God damn anyone to the lowest circle of hell for suggesting that such a narrow minded and lazy design ethic is in any way bad, unfair, undesirable, or harmful. And how dare any of us call that "sexist" because feminists around the world are trying to take our rights away.

(Rolls eyes) You know... I've seen this straw mam argument used so many times that it doesn't even make me mad anymore. I guess I'll avoid a wall of text because neither you nor I have any desire to type/read it. I'll just say, in case you missed what many people have said, it's not the existence of sexism in the industry that people are denying (Just look at Scarlet Blade for instance) we just don't agree with things like game developers making stories specifically so that women are inferior to men.

Yup- my give a damn just broke... Even though I've grown up playing video games since 1980, all I have to do is go to a store to realize I have no interest in most games being made, marketed, or designed. I attribute some of this to the fact that I GREW UP. I don't care if games are sexist, and I certainly don't care how hard you want to fight to prove that they aren't. I don't care what other people ask for or the reasoning behind the request.

I am going to have to try to avoid these forums. By that I mean all forums. All they do is get me worked up over shit that ultimately doesn't matter. On top of that I get to read pages of text from people that just like to hear themselves speak.

If you don't like my long, rambling and incohesive response, well, that is what you get for butting in on the tail end of a conversation I was having with someone else.

That's always when you should just take some time off from the internet. I know the feeling. I actually had a moment when I lost my cool over this issue a month or two back and felt incredibly ashamed of how I acted. The positive of these boiling points is that you tend to get better after them, I think.

 

[kabahaly]

I don't get it, it's my opinion, if I were to make a game, I wouldn't allow women to play because I know they will overreact about everything.

 

[Olikar]

I don't particularly care what it seems like to you given that it does not come close to what censorship actually is.

Clearly you don't understand what censorship actually is, saying it is dangerous to society to create certain types of art or depict certain things in art and thus it's 'irresponsible' for an artist to do so is censorship. Not all censorship has to be through legal measures, instead it can be achieved simply through condemnation of an artist for creating a work until he feels pressured to 'voluntarily' remove certain elements out of fear of economic or social reprisals. (e.g boycotts)

As Orwell said on censorship

The sinister fact about [literary] censorship in England is that it is largely voluntary. Unpopular ideas can be silenced, and inconvenient facts kept dark, without the need for any official ban. Anyone who has lived long in a foreign country will know of instances of sensational items of news - things which on their own merits would get the big headlines-being kept right out of the British press, not because the Government intervened but because of a general tacit agreement that 'it wouldn't do' to mention that particular fact.

To be exact, what you just mentioned was poor handling of violence, not actual violence.

You act as if they're distinct seperate things, a society that passively excepts a crime (or even blames it on the victim) will find that crime more widespread than it otherwise would.

 

[carnex]

Playboy and Playgirl look quite a lot alike to me.

We don't have Playgirl Magazine over here so I can't comment on that. Also, playboy is not erotic magazine, it's magazine targeted at men with some light erotic content.

Apparently, some people will never see the point until men are objectified and demeaned every bit as much and as often as women have been. So, that is what I am rooting for. If you have to literally have your nose rubbed in shit for you to understand what shit is, then BATHE in it!

Men are "objectified" almost as much as women are (you cant objectify image, only real person) but men don't pay as much attention as women do. We don't call is sexist but stupid. And weather we like it or not is irrelevant, it has it's audience and does not hurt anyone who doesn'h have issues already.

I no longer care if it is also sexist or just as bad or even worse. If this makes me an evil person, then so be it. I am evil,

Grow an evil mustache and tie a woman to trail rails

When I first started reading/commenting on these "feminism in games" threads I thought it was a relatively simple and benign thing to say "Hey could we get some more games that don't have gratuitous heterosexual male sex appeal and/or use women as a quest item?" But apparently not. Apparently the glue that holds the universe together is giving adolescent-minded heterosexual gamer nerds exclusive consideration when making games, and God damn anyone to the lowest circle of hell for suggesting that such a narrow minded and lazy design ethic is in any way bad, unfair, undesirable, or harmful. And how dare any of us call that "sexist" because feminists around the world are trying to take our rights away.

And here we have you yourself contradicting yourself. I said over and over again that more active women in games, more well written and well rounded female characters is something wee all want. As long as you promote this, we are in agreement.

But then you switch to removing of certain storyline, mechanics and roles, Censorship is bad by default. I will stand for anyone's right to create anything, no matter how offensive it is. As you call for removal of certain things, i will fight for authors rights and against you. You can ridicule any work, criticize it and nitpick to no end. If you do that I will fight for your right to do that. Plain and simple.

Yup- my give a damn just broke... Even though I've grown up playing video games since 1980, all I have to do is go to a store to realize I have no interest in most games being made, marketed, or designed. I attribute some of this to the fact that I GREW UP. I don't care if games are sexist, and I certainly don't care how hard you want to fight to prove that they aren't. I don't care what other people ask for or the reasoning behind the request.

I am going to have to try to avoid these forums. By that I mean all forums. All they do is get me worked up over shit that ultimately doesn't matter. On top of that I get to read pages of text from people that just like to hear themselves speak.

If you don't like my long, rambling and incohesive response, well, that is what you get for butting in on the tail end of a conversation I was having with someone else.

Well, that is your personal decision. If you want to go, it's what you feel is best for you. Also, I don't mind scatter-gun approach to responses.

But, What I try to do here is point out to people that there are far more contexts in which these this potential problems should and must be viewed. Female perspective of affecting feelings and possible effects of it's influence on gender views of gamers is only small part of much bigger picture. Causes, reasons, other perspectives and facts are at least equally if not more important to scrutinize. Whenever is any subject viewed form single perspective and in one single context, false conclusions are bound to surface.

To answer your question "should feminism and gaming mix?" my answer is of course. Games are medium, and medium should be free for anyone and anything. Including things I agree with, I oppose and I don't care about. As long as there are no calls for restricting or censorship of medium, I'll stand for anyone's fight to use it. But that's the idea, USE it, not ABUSE it.

 

[Oirish_Martin]

Hang on, isn't HUGE TITS OMG the argument against the design of the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown? Isn't she a fully realised PC regardless of her boobage?

So why the furore about that, but not Lara Croft, who was also intentionally crafted with huge boobs?

She is, but in Dragon Crown's case most of the noise is coming from people who aren't familiar with the developers' art style and how they illustrate pretty much everything as extreme/hyper-exaggerated throughout all their games.
I'm fine with people criticizing Vanillaware's general art style, but singling-out the Sorceress for her big boobs and ignoring everything else is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction from people who couldn't miss the point harder even if it danced naked in front of them with it's tits out (no pun intended).

Apparently there is something holy/sacred about female body proportions which an artist simply isn't allowed to tamper with, unlike male proportions where the artist can do whatever they like and hear no criticism about it. It's funny/comical/awesome/etc when a male with fucked-up proportions shows up, but the moment it's done with a female then holy shit, ring the sexism/misogyny alarm! Videogame feminism in a nutshell.

Two scoops of double standards with a healthy sprinkling of irony, coming right up

The double standards aside, the other reason I have issues taking feminism in gaming - and in many other areas - seriously is that so often it dispenses entirely conflicting advice depending on which subset of feminists you listen to.

I'm all for listening, but when you have two groups of people giving you conflicting instructions, with a tendency to yell at you when you get things (according to them) wrong, then quite frankly I get tired of listening.

 

[Oirish_Martin]

Apparently, some people will never see the point until men are objectified and demeaned every bit as much and as often as women have been. So, that is what I am rooting for. If you have to literally have your nose rubbed in shit for you to understand what shit is, then BATHE in it!

I no longer care if it is also sexist or just as bad or even worse. If this makes me an evil person, then so be it. I am evil,

That right there would explain the motivation behind a lot of feminist actions.