Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Lonewolfm16]

I don't see how Dragon's Crown is problematic at all. They use caricatures of stock types. Thus why the warrior looks like he is wearing power armor or has a absurdly tiny head.

You honestly don't see a problem with characters like the Sorceress, a character with breasts twice the size of her head in a skimpy outfit, sashaying around to accentuate every jiggle? Or female NPCs that are there to be nothing more than damsels, lying in suggestive poses and wearing next to no clothing? You don't see how that is problematic?

As for sexual vs power fantasies, the only way sexual fantasies are demeaning but power fantasies are fine is if we assume that sex is a evil dirty demeaning thing, which I refuse to do.

That's not what it is at all. The reason sexual fantasies can be problematic when power fantasies usually aren't is intent. Characters like Kratos, Marcus Fenix or Nathan Drake are supposed to make the player feel like a badass when you play as them, whereas with a lot of female characters they're seen as nothing more than objects designed to titilate the player.

No, I don't. Sure it's silly, but as I pointed out, the game is meant to be. As for sexual fantasies being meant to titillate the player, my response is "And...?" Why is sexualisation bad? Characters serve purposes within stories, and eye candy can b nice. Feminism seems to accept the premise that sex is dirty and evil, and that thinking sexual thoughts about someone takes away their value as a human being. I disagree. Sex is fine, and being shouldn't be viewed as demeaning or dishonorable. Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.
Also, Escapist, scrapt the video ads on the side of the forum, they cover my text box and I can't see wha I am tyoing.

 

[carnex]

I'm trying to play as the goddamn Batman, but when Catwoman has a skintight suit open down to her navel and starts talking in that suggestive voice it just drags me right out of it. It's just stupid, degrading and an insult to my intelligence and the intelligence of everyone else playing. It has no reason to be there.

You are making a wear argument there. Catwoman is that sort of character, a seductress when it suits her. As far as I know she is neutral character (I'm no comic buff, and really laugh at superhero comics) and uses every trick in the book to get her way. Seduction is one of them.

That said, are you Batman? If you are then tell me how the hell did you pull off not getting shot in the face all this years. And If you aren't Catwoman isn't talking to you.

P.S.
Has anyone considered the fact that in this medium story often gets in the way (Duck Tales Remastered I'm looking at you). So when you need quick emotional tie you put woman in danger and everyone freaks out. In real life we appreciate female life much more so they put her in danger. If it was just some bloke off the street I would be first to assume that gang has some "domestic dispute" to work out.

As for sexy clothes, unless we are talking BlodRayne type deal there she is purposefully fetishied or character theft like Lara Croft (god damn it, why did they create terminator out second one? Can't we have normal female character?) it is perfectly normal thing. Look at how women dress during summer. Only thing I can say about that is for women and girls to own their sexuality. not only will they be more self-confident, guys will like them more (and girls if they are into them)

 

[jehk]

OT, feminism can be used to help tell a story, but should it be a measure of the medium? Fuck no. The only measure of video games should be, "Is this a good video game?" of course what that means is really up in the air.

Treating women equally (as characters and players) isn't a metric of a good video game?

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I dunno in my opinion it seems more like people are being nitpicky and try to create the fallacy of there is a huge soul sucking gap in race or gender when what it really is, is some people just being shallow and petty. IMO there is a slight gap but it?s neither very deep nor very wide. Our skewed perspective as individuals that group together to form groups to pick on other groups seems to make a river into an ocean.

 

[carnex]

OT, feminism can be used to help tell a story, but should it be a measure of the medium? Fuck no. The only measure of video games should be, "Is this a good video game?" of course what that means is really up in the air.

Treating women equally (as characters and players) isn't a metric of a good video game?

Skimpy dressed males, skimpy dressed females? Check

But wait, that is sexist!

If they are equal, no it's not.

 

[Hazy992]

No, I don't. Sure it's silly, but as I pointed out, the game is meant to be.

I can buy that. Up to a point. Beyond that I ain't buying the 'it's just for a joke guys, jeez!' When you do it enough there's something more to it than that.

As for sexual fantasies being meant to titillate the player, my response is "And...?" Why is sexualisation bad? Characters serve purposes within stories, and eye candy can b nice.

Because believe it or not women are actually people, not just objects. If you reinforce this idea that that's all women are good for how do you think that's going to make some women feel? Not only that but that's all you get. As I said above if you want games that do nothing but pander then by all means, but if you don't want that then what other choice is there?

It is possible for a character to be attractive without being objectified.

Feminism seems to accept the premise that sex is dirty and evil, and that thinking sexual thoughts about someone takes away their value as a human being. I disagree. Sex is fine, and being shouldn't be viewed as demeaning or dishonorable.

And herein lies the problem. This assumption that feminists are basically like The Borg and all think in a hive mind just isn't true. Feminism is an umbrella term for an array of diverse ideologies that center around rights for women. That's it.

There are plenty of feminists who embrace their sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't get things like The SlutWalk. Do some feminists believe what you said above? Maybe. Do they all believe that? Hardly.

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

See above.

 

[Dr.Awkward]

Can't feminism become its own genre? Like if you don't like or want obnoxious amounts of feminism in your games, then you can just avoid most of that as a genre, kind of like how some people don't like RPGs or military shooters or simulators don't get the games in those genres.

 

[carnex]

And herein lies the problem. This assumption that feminists are basically like The Borg and all think in a hive mind just isn't true. Feminism is an umbrella term for an array of diverse ideologies that center around rights for women. That's it.

There are plenty of feminists who embrace their sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't get things like The SlutWalk. Do some feminists believe what you said above? Maybe. Do they all believe that? Hardly.

And here lies the BS. You can't really say what feminism is can you? You can repeat the subtitle, but that doesn't define it. Actions define. And when actions do not coincide with proclamations you have a problem. If there are 1000 brands of feminism and one has problem with many of them one is going to fight all of them since they are united front.

Not all German soldiers during WWII signed up to Nazi ideology. Many of them actually were against it. But my grandpa wasn't reluctant to put bullet in one of them because he might be "communist in disguise"

 

[II2]

Putting aside both all the social noise and the limited anecdote of the OP, it strikes me as a strange question to ask, fundamentally:

Should _____ and gaming mix?

If you had said, say, Objectivism, prior to 2007, I would have said no, but Bioshock was undeniably made more interesting for it. Ken Levine is a great writer and even still could have cocked it up if he hadn't put a lot of love and care into crafting its place in the world.

I feel its all about execution and context, really. Feminism exists primarily as criticism in relation to games at this point in time, which doesn't make it a popular subject - there's very little feminism in game design, itself. Like any big idea, it would be hard to handle and express, though. Ideally, you'd want the idea there to ask questions, not give answers - to show both the positive and negative sides of how it might play out in a story.

Just spitballing:

- A contemporary game where you are a book smuggler and underground teacher, ducking the Taliban and bringing education to oppressed women in the middle east. Stealth adventure sorta deal, same modern warfare trappings, but focusing on evading the soldiers and fanatics to bring books and healthcare in and people in peril out. If you screw up, it's all your asses. Great central risk / reward mechanic for accumulating and keeping ahead of the heat.

- A historical strategy game; sorta a 4X political game to get women the vote, rights and other issues addressed in a turn based campaign across the USA. Try and gain ground, organize rallies, distribute literature, manage expenses and manage a roster of agents, whose abilities and opinions bring buffs and debuffs, etc.

You know, that kinda thing. Make a meal of the subject with meaningful mechanics, rather than just spouting off about it an an unrelated action adventure vehicle, or whatever. It would be good to try and avoid Margret Atwood style hyperbole, or - worse - censorship in game design, saying "you can't do that / say that".

 

[carnex]

-snip-

On the same note
There is little anti-slavery in games. Actually games in which you can own slaves or are required to own slaves outnumber those in which you are required to release slaves because slavery is bad thing is on the scale of times infinite since number of later games, to my knowledge, is zero.

 

[Maitresse Zem]

yes. go back to your mancave.


also, I study film and literary sciences and they are all about feminism and psychoanalysis. If I cannot write feminist essays about games I will have to return to reading books, and since I cannot read for as many hours as I can play videogames since I have the attention span of a Muppet, I will end up here, at the forums, to spew my dark, feminist rage.

and it will be all. on. you.

/feminist out

I'm not sure the satire in this will be read by a community who thinks that feminists are out to destroy gaming as we know it.

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

 

[carnex]

yes. go back to your mancave.


also, I study film and literary sciences and they are all about feminism and psychoanalysis. If I cannot write feminist essays about games I will have to return to reading books, and since I cannot read for as many hours as I can play videogames since I have the attention span of a Muppet, I will end up here, at the forums, to spew my dark, feminist rage.

and it will be all. on. you.

/feminist out

I'm not sure the satire in this will be read by a community who thinks that feminists are out to destroy gaming as we know it.

well, my post is about as much satire as gaming's portrayal of women is satire.

Nice name, I'm guessing you like being Domina.

Anyway...
In games geared towards males female characters will be made to suit male tastes, expectations and preferences. I played few casual games geared for female audience, mostly casual stuff. I was curious, what can i say. What I found s that male characters were either throwaway hunks, throwaway fat wasters meant to be disgusting, Mr. Perfect of Mr. Perfectly Disgusting (I actually saw bad representations only in few cases). So, we are equal. I didn't found myself offended, rather amused. Then again, men are portrayed that way in female light literature for ages, nothing new.

 

[Thaluikhain]

No.

I want to play videogames.

I don't want politics, feminism, cis-privilege, gay marriage, immigration reform, gender politics, transsexual acceptance, anti-war, pro-interventionist, abortion, PeTA or Greenpeace in my entertainment.

Take your soapbox, for whatever purpose, however valid or petty your complaints, and take it somewhere where it doesn't impact my unrelated hobby.

Excepting, of course, it's not just your hobby. Why do you assume it should be solely what you like? Don't, for example, gay people play games?

Secondly, there isn't a default, to which people stick ideologies. Get rid of feminism, and you aren't getting rid of gender ideologies, you are enforcing another one. Or to put it another way, nobody says we should make games solely about disabled black lesbians, and that anyone trying to make games about able bodied straight white males is doing so for ideological reasons, but it's just as valid.

Now, sure, you can do away with all of that if you are playing something like Tetris. Or, I guess, you demand every game be solely about disabled black lesbians just to end discussions about it.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

No, I don't. Sure it's silly, but as I pointed out, the game is meant to be.

I can buy that. Up to a point. Beyond that I ain't buying the 'it's just for a joke guys, jeez!' When you do it enough there's something more to it than that.

As for sexual fantasies being meant to titillate the player, my response is "And...?" Why is sexualisation bad? Characters serve purposes within stories, and eye candy can b nice.

Because believe it or not women are actually people, not just objects. If you reinforce this idea that that's all women are good for how do you think that's going to make some women feel? Not only that but that's all you get. As I said above if you want games that do nothing but pander then by all means, but if you don't want that then what other choice is there?

It is possible for a character to be attractive without being objectified.

Feminism seems to accept the premise that sex is dirty and evil, and that thinking sexual thoughts about someone takes away their value as a human being. I disagree. Sex is fine, and being shouldn't be viewed as demeaning or dishonorable.

And herein lies the problem. This assumption that feminists are basically like The Borg and all think in a hive mind just isn't true. Feminism is an umbrella term for an array of diverse ideologies that center around rights for women. That's it.

There are plenty of feminists who embrace their sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't get things like The SlutWalk. Do some feminists believe what you said above? Maybe. Do they all believe that? Hardly.

Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.

See above.

"something more to it than that" there really isn't. Why do you think the dwarf looks like he overdosed on steroids? The game uses caricatures of stock types in its design. Mystery solved. Moving on, I am well aware that women are people. My mother is a woman. Believe it or not, my best friend is a woman too. And one of the smartest people I know. But men are human as well. And humans are animals, who happen to reproduce sexualy. Sexy outfits don't invalidate a character. Additionally, the idea that people will see women as nothing more than sex objects because they stared at a fictional woman's boobs is ludicrous. Women make up half the population. Men have met real women. And the fact that we tend to form romantic relationships proves that it is entirely possible to respect, admire, and appreciate someone and also want to see them naked. If someone is determining the worth of half the human species based on random pieces of fiction then they were never mentally stable enough for their opinion to matter in the first place. Besides, most skimpily dressed women in games are also highly competent warriors. Which actually brings to mind a comparison. If putting sexualised women in your games is misogynistic because it implies that women only exist for men's sexual pleasure, isn't the fact that most soldiers in games are male misandristic, because it implies men are only good at killing each other? As for feminism being the Borg, no I don't believe that. I just wish people would stop using the label feminist to describe themselves, when it is so meaningless that you can have feminists both demanding that video game women where more clothes and that real women be allowed to wear less without society judging. Pick more descriptive terms, or every discussion on feminism is doomed to fail.
Edit: I also think there are parallels to be drawn between the "video games teach our children to be mass murderers" idea and the "video games will teach our children that women are sex objects only existing for their pleasure" idea. Both are very very silly.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I'm all for better written female characters who occupy the entire spectrum of physical proportions real women can actually be.

But feminism? Fuck that noise. The feminist narrative spins everything to look like it's stacked against women, even when it's equally (or more) shitty for men.

For example.
I like how when a women feels unrequited romantic feelings for a guy, she's unappreciated and undervalued and the guy just hasn't recognised it. We're supposed to feel sympathetic. When a man feels unrequited romantic feelings for a woman, he's a selfish asshole who's not content with just being friends because he's so obsessed with sex. He's an unsympathetic whiner.
When you look at the numbers for marital violence, they're actually fairly even going both ways. It's just that when you specifically call it 'abuse' it all skews to look like most of it is violent husbands attacking wives. Why? Because when a women hits you, you're meant to suck it up. You don't report it, and you don't think of yourself as an abused husband.

There are plenty of middle eastern countries that could do with a big ol' dose of feminism. And a big ol' dose of atheism, too. But do I want it in gaming? Nope. There's enough of it in society as it is...