Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Specter Von Baren]

It has nothing to do with comfort but relevance and intellectual value. And I (and most of western philosophy) don't believe art should be criticized on moral grounds or political/social values, in fact most would argue the opposite, and that Art should be the one criticizing morality and political/social values not the other way round. Someone can say a work of art is morally disgusting or sexist or whatever but what does that actually tell you beyond that the person is offended by the work? It offers no actual insight into the aesthetic value of the art, and is really nothing more than the person whining 'WAAAAAAAAA this opposes my own views and opinions!"

To highlight why I think criticizing art on social ground diminishes the value of art take the short story The Renegade by Camus. Camus was a staunch atheist who believed religion was poisonous to rational thought and this story is written as a metaphor for that. If I was to bring my own social values into it I would criticise the book for being monstrously bias and intolerant towards religion, I would call it disgusting vile trash. But of course since I am actually capable of rational thought, I know that my social values are not only irrelevant to other peoples judgment of the book (because my personal opinions and philosophies are of no use to others) it is also entirely irrelevant to mine, because even though I disagree with the message I can appreciate how masterfully the message was delivered (which is in my opinion the true value of art.)

On the flipside, an example of someone not restraining themselves from their views is His Dark Materials series of books. Pullman apparently set out to make a book like The Chronicles of Narnia but with an atheist bent to it and he got so hung up about pushing his ideology that it turned the series into a mess.

Sorry if that's off topic, I guess I'm still a little bitter over how that series ended up. The Golden Compass, fantastic. The Subtle Knife, average at best. The Amber Spyglass, garbage.

*sigh*

 

[Tanakh]

--

I still think "didn't need", and by that I mean didn't need as a qualified part of it's workforce, because not well situated women have always done physically excruciating and dangerous tasks but before current social organizations it would have been impossible to ask them to work in addition to what they did. But with work came a modicum of power, and with the consciousness of it some changes were made, we are still far off from a just place for woman tough.

It's not like they couldn't. Some did, but mostpeopel do have emapthy and concience so they didnt.

But the reason why I replyed is to ask you what you meant with last sentence, especially last statement in it.

I meant that with work women started to earn and have more freedom and power, once it was no longer sustainable to have them as second rate citizens due that and the social movements, they were granted full citizenship.

As for the last statement it might be just me being biased because at work i see a lot of women that suffer violence due just being women, but here in Mexico between 35% to 50% of women have suffered aggressions from their partners (numbers aren't consistent for this stat).

 

[white_wolf]

Don't forget Garrus.
I don't think the creators of Mass Effect ever thought that a stick thin, scaly, bird/lizard/cat alien would enter the wet dreams of so many of my fellow ladies.

Perhaps we should compile a list of characters female gamers are most attracted to and see what similarities they tend to have.

Thanks
You just reminded me of great example of difference between female and male preferred representation of desired sex. That women really prefer or even need context and that context can replace physical attraction while men are much more visual.

Actually...yeah, now that you bring that up it makes sense.
If there is one thing female fans who are sexually interested in Garrus have stated appealed to them is that they like and voice and personality above all things.
In fact, his actual appearance is probably down on the list in 3rd or 4th priorities.
Same with all the others. Axel, Dante, Drake, all of them always had a story, personality and/or context in order for them to be liked.
A hunk guy that is there for the sake of being hunk is shrugged off.
The same can even be said for a female characters with big breasts. Plenty of guys have stated that those women have no interest to them for they aren't even important to the context of the story.

Garrus just goes to show we need more well written characters in games he is multi faceted he has good and bad points to him. I romanced him and yeah I'll admit his voice really helped but what first drew me to him was his drive back in ME to do right even if he was crazy about it to always get the bad guy. While not agreeing at the time with the whole blow up the bad guy to save future victims later in BDTS I got to test that scenario out and see would I agree with him now that I was in a similar place?

 

[Oirish_Martin]

This question came up couple weeks ago in a blog. It detailed one guy's experience playing an online multiplayer game. He performed a violent action against a male avatar that he has done hundreds of times before. A female voice, who was playing that particular male avatar, accused him of being sexist for doing that to her. If that wasn't enough of a buzzkill, half an hour later, she tracked him down in the game and continue to berate him.

I'm for women equality. There are serious issues around the world where that kind of passion and dedication is needed. When you take up an issue in gaming, and claim that you are doing so because you are a feminist. You are devaluing what feminism is about.

What it's actually about is faux rage. Being self-righteously upset about a non-issue. So, you can release whatever anger and stress you've dealt with that day on somebody anonymous online. Yeah, doing that is fun and addictive. Yet, it really does negative impact.

So, isn't about enough time to call B.S. on anyone who try to make a mountain over a molehill about sexism. When you take the time and breakdown their argument about videogames. It really comes down to lazy writing in general. Not some evil patriarchy trying to keep the women down by having Princess Peach getting kidnapped in every game.

As much as I really don't like feminism that much (and I can't really believe I'm going to do this, but), Not All Feminists Are Like That. Mind you, some are this level of dumb too.

Actually, why are you even assuming she's a feminist?

In general I have no problem with feminism and gaming mixing - how it manifests, potentially. Sarkeesian levels of fail should be avoided.

 

[Oirish_Martin]

It's idiot feminists (and I mean idiot feminists, not that feminists are idiots) who are just hurting gaming when we have characters Lara Croft like the latest Tomb Raider game. They were trying to tell the tale of a strong hero's horrible beginning, which shows why they are not phased by the shit they go through. Someone acting whiney and depressed when their entire crew is killed and they are captured by a bunch of raiders is a realistic depiction of a character, male or female. That is good writing. Then there was the scene where he looked like he was about to rape her. It's clear the character was supposed to be just that: An awful human being. The game nor the trailer never tried to put him in a positive light at all, and the trailer clearly showed he gets killed straight after. That isn't something that is bad for women. That is a case of feminists being whiny shits. If that scene had turned into an actual near rape scene, and that character becomes some kind of heroic and likable important character in the game, that would be a bad thing. If feminists are going to ***** about stupid shit like this, they are going against videogames having better writing, and can get out.

I have to confess, I still don't understand half the so-called feminist reactions to that Tomb Raider reboot.

Not only is wanting to save someone from rape bad - somehow - but the old Tomb Raider (who quite clearly was shamelessly marketed on her tits) was talked up as some kind of bad-ass.

Logic!

 

[jehk]

I have to confess, I still don't understand half the so-called feminist reactions to that Tomb Raider reboot.

Not only is wanting to save someone from rape bad - somehow - but the old Tomb Raider (who quite clearly was shamelessly marketed on her tits) was talked up as some kind of bad-ass.

Logic!

Read this.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning

Knowledge!

EDIT: There's one particular scene where Lara is caught by the bad guys. That's totally a trigger for some women. It hits way too close to the mark.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I have to confess, I still don't understand half the so-called feminist reactions to that Tomb Raider reboot.

Not only is wanting to save someone from rape bad - somehow - but the old Tomb Raider (who quite clearly was shamelessly marketed on her tits) was talked up as some kind of bad-ass.

Logic!

Read this.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning

Knowledge!

EDIT: There's one particular scene where Lara is caught by the bad guys. That's totally a trigger for some women. It hits way too close to the mark.

I'm interested as to why we don't just go ahead and use these trigger warnings too.

Pictures of missing limbs and explosions (for military veterens)
Images of drugs and parties (for addicts and recovering addicts)
Passages about child abuse (for the abused)
Bible quotes (for atheists)
Pictures of meat (for vegans)
Pictures of any food at all (for anorexics)
Comments about break-ups
Pictures of attractive people (for the ugly)
Self-harm
Pictures of people smiling (for the depressed)
Song lyrics (for the deaf and tone-deaf)
Pictures of cats (for people who are allergic to cats)
Any mention of straight relationships or default gender identities that isn't negative
Any passage of text (for the illiterate)

Anyway, moving past my indulgence in a little bit of juvenile humor.

I've tried several times to try and type up a proper response to this asinine crap. If someone knows they are speaking with a rape victim then yes, watching what you say is good. If you are going into a place where there are likely to be people that were victims of rape (Like a forum for people to discuss it or what have you) then you should watch what you say or bring. But purchasing an M rated game and then having a fit of indignation when it shockingly has mature themes is on the head of the person purchasing the material.

As much as that list I posted is a joke, there are people that are victims of torture or survivors of public shootings and we don't have people get outraged over things that could trigger them to have flashbacks.

I don't want to come off as some sort of insensitive ass that doesn't care about the problems of other people, but what do you expect people to do? To never have anything that could possibly trigger someone to have a flashback to something horrible that happened to them?

 

[wulf3n]

I believe in gravity because I can observe its effect. I've yet to see any effect of feminism in games, and no one can explain how it is going to work.

Now you can observe some of its effect:

I'm going to assume you're referring to negative effect given your previous posting specifically regarding changing the gaming industry.

http://abload.de/img/ibj7b3c4vumh.jpg
http://www.gearboxsoftware.com/community/articles/1077

Looks to me like he's actually interested in creating more diverse female characters, and not through any form of coercion.

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/8081/article/god-of-war-ascension-will-not-feature-violence-against-women/
http://www.vg247.com/2013/03/11/god-of-war-ascension-trophy-to-be-renamed-following-criticism/

This I disagreed with at the time, but was more upset with the developers/publishers caving in than the response it garnered. It takes a special kind of stupid to think that wouldn't cause an uproar, and they gain nothing by changing it post release.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-05-03-fire-emblem-dlc-censored-in-the-west

Seems like the stock standard western prudishness to me, and I couldn't find anything regarding the dlc and sexism.

http://abload.de/img/gamedesign71u05.png
http://abload.de/img/1365336565502tnuf0.jpg

Well both outfits appeared in the game, so the articles "worried" about Elizabeth's appearance did nothing to sway Irrational Games.

http://abload.de/img/divinityoriginalsinfed1utk.png

The argument here is the one I use when people complain there aren't enough well written female characters. "The people funding the game get to say how it's made" this applies to publishers who don't want to risk money on a female lead just as it does to people giving their money on kickstarter who want a game with armour that works.

http://abload.de/img/projecteternity_cadeg15u7g.png

I wasn't able to find any context to this image. Looks to me like the design changed naturally.

http://abload.de/img/i8rq1cniquwr.jpg (this might be somewhat pushing it)

Yeah. EA are well known for wanting to reach the largest audience possible, and as one of their few games with a decent female lead it's only logical they'd try to get Anita on board.

 

[DracoSuave]

You might as well ask 'Why does no one tell how extinguishing fires is supposed to put them out?'

But if I asked someone how they were going to extinguish a fire they'd be able to tell me. Poor water over it. Remove its fuel supply etc.

Which is fine for extinguishing fires. But if one had a forest fire that had challenges to be extinguished, one where the method of combatting it isn't as simple as 'Just grab a fire extinguisher', then if one said 'The people fighting that fire are trying to put it out' you'll come across as an idiot by challenging that statement by asking what fighting the fire has to do with putting it out.

Which is why your question is malformed in the context. I am giving a statement of definition, that feminism is the attempted removal of barriers to female integration within society. If it came across that I was stating that feminism was specificly successful at it or was making a statement that specific strategies were being enacted, then you've completely misunderstood my point, which is getting lost in all the noise of trolls demanding evidence that there's misogynist people in the gaming community after I provided evidence of such, followed by the constant moving of goalposts, and a lack of accepting of the methodology for acquisition of such evidence as actual presenting of evidence WHEN IT IS.

So, I will repeat my point.

OP asked if feminism is necessary in gaming.

My argument:

There is misogyny in gaming.
It is pervasive and toxic in its nature.
Therefore people should oppose it.
Opposition to misogyny IS feminism, by definition.
Therefore it is necessary.

So long as there are people making rape threats to people for stating their point of view, so long as strangers are told to 'tits or gtfo' in public games, so long as people at conventions are derided for not conforming to some misogynists idea of what a normal gamer should be, so long as there are men in our culture trying to derail progress to include women on the level in the community without marginalizing them as women, then yes, feminism IS necessary within the community.

Feminism is removing barriers to female integration within society.

By doing what?

Good question. Now you're talking about strategy, and this is where different types of feminists differ on their approach and ideas on how to do so. My standpoint is on a man who's grown tired of the immature nonsense, and of people excusing it as 'it's just the 14 year old COD players' or turning a blind eye to threads complaining that a woman who streams is some sort of 'attention whore who isn't actually there to play the game' or nonsense like that.

If I point it out, it's just lost in the noise, you'll compartmentalize it as someone making noise about it. The point is for YOU to look for it, and see it happens for yourself, and to stop excusing it. And so on. That's one thing we can do as men--actually LOOK for it instead of pretending it's not a problem and trivializing the experiences of our community's female members.

 

[wulf3n]

Which is fine for extinguishing fires. But if one had a forest fire that had challenges to be extinguished, one where the method of combatting it isn't as simple as 'Just grab a fire extinguisher', then if one said 'The people fighting that fire are trying to put it out' you'll come across as an idiot by challenging that statement by asking what fighting the fire has to do with putting it out.

If I asked someone how they're going to put out a forest fire they'd tell me how they plan to do it. Big Helicopter with lots of water, controlled back burning etc.

I am giving a statement of definition, that feminism is the attempted removal of barriers to female integration within society.

But how does it attempt that?

Opposition to misogyny IS feminism, by definition.

But it doesn't, it is simply a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism]

Feminists who rallied paraded an protested for most of the 1900's opposed mysoginy.

If feminism opposed misogyny you'd be able to explain how by it's nature it opposed misogyny.

Good question. Now you're talking about strategy,

That's what I've been asking.

and this is where different types of feminists differ on their approach and ideas on how to do so. My standpoint is on a man who's grown tired of the immature nonsense, and of people excusing it as 'it's just the 14 year old COD players' or turning a blind eye to threads complaining that a woman who streams is some sort of 'attention whore who isn't actually there to play the game' or nonsense like that.

If I point it out, it's just lost in the noise, you'll compartmentalize it as someone making noise about it. The point is for YOU to look for it, and see it happens for yourself, and to stop excusing it. And so on. That's one thing we can do as men--actually LOOK for it instead of pretending it's not a problem and trivializing the experiences of our community's female members.

Ok I see it and?

 

[carnex]

You might notice that in new Tomb Raider no rape takes place. What happens could be treated as harsh harassment but not more. It's implied that it's intended but never carried out. It has as much rape as Terminator 2.

 

[Aramis Night]

The thing is brah, actions taken by woman to acquire rights have existed since way before, at least the 18th century but i think they are as old as humanity. They didn't got anywhere tough because the social tissue was not ready for them, the economic demands didn't need feminism.

I think a good analogy would be to see it as a pinwheel, it doesn't provoke any changes nor usually moves anything but tells us if the wind is blowing and in which direction. Again, more of a conscience than a motor.

As for the issue of misogyny, I simply don't see it, but since usually just play PvP games might be less apparent.

It's not that it didn't need, it's more that there were very little available workplaces that weren?t physically excruciating (not that women didn't do some of those) and dangerous to life and health. Also, with industrial revolution gave industrialists unprecedented control over person?s life, like nothing after early serfdom (workplace person worked at, shops where person bought supplies and lodgings were often owned by same person or group of colluding owners) which often led to need for women to work so that family could sustain itself (really, probably the low point for females, new expectations forced upon them with no real relaxing of old ones. No power/no responsibility dynamic still standing).

What I always found funny and great example how powerful marketing is, is the fact that Suffragettes movement was led by upper class females which were most protected and privileged group in history outside some royal families. And they called themselves Suffragettes. One of the most brilliant marketing moves in history.

What i always thought was rich was how the police who were tasked with arresting them and breaking up their protests, were themselves unable to vote. The vote was not strictly dependant on gender, but on land ownership. Police typically did not have property. They were provided housing by the government but they did not own property. Meanwhile, there were in fact women who found themselves the sole owners of property who were legally allowed to vote as a result. This was even true in the 13 colonies before the break away from England.

Somehow the suffragettes managed to convince everyone that it was a sexist conspiracy to keep women from voting, rather than a limitation on voting to insure those with the most at stake(property owners), had a say in government. Now the way property rights were handled can certainly be argued as sexist, but that wasn't exactly fair to men either from the responsibility side of things (covered in http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Legal_Subjection_of_Men).

 

[Kenmoo]

I don't see how Dragon's Crown is problematic at all. They use caricatures of stock types. Thus why the warrior looks like he is wearing power armor or has a absurdly tiny head.

You honestly don't see a problem with characters like the Sorceress, a character with breasts twice the size of her head in a skimpy outfit, sashaying around to accentuate every jiggle? Or female NPCs that are there to be nothing more than damsels, lying in suggestive poses and wearing next to no clothing? You don't see how that is problematic?

As for sexual vs power fantasies, the only way sexual fantasies are demeaning but power fantasies are fine is if we assume that sex is a evil dirty demeaning thing, which I refuse to do.

That's not what it is at all. The reason sexual fantasies can be problematic when power fantasies usually aren't is intent. Characters like Kratos, Marcus Fenix or Nathan Drake are supposed to make the player feel like a badass when you play as them, whereas with a lot of female characters they're seen as nothing more than objects designed to titilate the player.

Well. All in all. There shouldn't be a problem with ridiculisation.
But your problem is not dragon's crown. Your problem is - and you're absolutely right - every damn AAA-game does it. No ?

I remember playing Tomb Raider 1 the first time. The oversized boobs were good as a joke. I guess in DOA it was sort of their signature and something to laugh at. But when every game has skimpy clad girls there's a problem.