Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[Saxnot]

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/8081/article/god-of-war-ascension-will-not-feature-violence-against-women/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-05-03-fire-emblem-dlc-censored-in-the-west

See, I agree that the role of women in videogames should be re-evaluated, but i'm not so happy about devs censoring their games. It's one thing to change a characters appearance during development in response to criticism, as in the divinity example, but another to add a ridiculous piece of curtain to a scene or stop violent acts towards female characters in GoW.

In the first case, there's introspection and reasoned changes, while the other two cases reek of devs censoring themselves out of fear. I'm not a fan of violence against women, but GoW is a a brutal game about extreme violence, that's what the game is. Creating a double standard for women in that game where there wasn't before is not progress. There's a difference between women not pointlessly getting their tits out and women being treated as a special kind of NPC who may never be interacted with in a negative way.

 

[generals3]

There is misogyny in gaming.
It is pervasive and toxic in its nature.
Therefore people should oppose it.
Opposition to misogyny IS feminism, by definition.
Therefore it is necessary.

Two points:
1) Opposition to misogyny isn't feminism. There are plenty of people who oppose misogyny and do not identify themselves as feminists. And that is because feminism does more or sometimes use very very broad definitions of misogyny, definitions which encompass a lot more than it should.
2) If it is pervasive than the point you make below seems a bit weird. If it was as pervasive as you make it out to be people wouldn't need to be looking for it, it would be thrown at their face all the time.

So long as there are people making rape threats to people for stating their point of view, so long as strangers are told to 'tits or gtfo' in public games, so long as people at conventions are derided for not conforming to some misogynists idea of what a normal gamer should be, so long as there are men in our culture trying to derail progress to include women on the level in the community without marginalizing them as women, then yes, feminism IS necessary within the community.

The problem here is that you're taking bigger issues and seem to claim that when it happens to women it's just misogyny. That ignores the idea that said people who may be misogynists in your eyes may just be pricks who also act like pricks towards women. Take Anita for instance, a lot of people are hell bent on thinking she only got crap because she's a woman. WRONG. Men who made absurd claims about VG's also got a lot of flack. You may say that it wasn't as bad. Well she also went out of her way to rub her crap into people's face by advertising her kickstarter on 4chan of all places. I think if Jack Thompson did the same and advertised himself on 4chan he could have expected some really really nasty shit too. Thunderf00t for instance is a man who also got lots of nasty crap thrown at his face (and he didn't even crap on VG's like Anita). Is that misandry?

While there is no doubt there is misogyny you aren't going to fix people who are just dicks by treating them like misogynists just because they also acted like dicks towards women. What you need to fix is general dickness on the internet. You'll already see a lot of what you think is plain misogyny go away.

Good question. Now you're talking about strategy, and this is where different types of feminists differ on their approach and ideas on how to do so. My standpoint is on a man who's grown tired of the immature nonsense, and of people excusing it as 'it's just the 14 year old COD players' or turning a blind eye to threads complaining that a woman who streams is some sort of 'attention whore who isn't actually there to play the game' or nonsense like that.

If I point it out, it's just lost in the noise, you'll compartmentalize it as someone making noise about it. The point is for YOU to look for it, and see it happens for yourself, and to stop excusing it. And so on. That's one thing we can do as men--actually LOOK for it instead of pretending it's not a problem and trivializing the experiences of our community's female members.

I think the issue is more a matter of people knowing how pointless this fight is. As long as there is anonymity and consequently social impunity there is little you and I can do to change the behavior of dicks on the net. People usually don't excuse it, they just see it as a hopeless fight and thus rather just ignore it instead of torturing themselves by hopelessly trying to do anything about it.

 

[wulf3n]

For the most part I agree, or can't disagree but...

Preceding censorship is kind of part of the whole thing, if a certain region gets a reputation for being especially prudish or sensitive towards certain subjects (for instance violence in Germany and Australia or breasts in the USA: http://kotaku.com/5327197/the-witcher-uncensored-for-north-america ) a lot of companies will go ahead and pre-censor their work or change it to fit the regional customs.

This isn't a result of feminism/feminists at least in Australia, as practically everything is censored. Still bad, but credit where credit is due.

 

[nuttshell]

It happened after people got agitated over what they called ?boob plate? after an article on Penny Arcade, redrawing the character concepts in Photoshop and stating how that is somehow sexist and offensive

I knew about the other games but didn't catch onto this. Makes me cry a little inside. I don't think it's severe, or really that important, but still...my precious Project Eternity.

 

[Yuuki]

Feminism is done! It accomplished it's mission; there is literally nothing in our culture that women are barred from doing, and in fact have a great deal of advantages in certain areas (mostly family court and criminal court). Women have the right to vote, they have the right to abort an unwanted or inadvisable fetus. They. Are. Equal.

Only in first-world/developed countries, in less stable/third-world nations women are far from equal.

Regarding first-world problems, now that femnists have ironed out most important/critical aspects of gender equality, they have moved onto the smaller things.

That's basically what modern feminism is, privileged people who have moved on women's rights/equality to women's woes/worries/complaints.

Or to copy from Wiki:

One issue raised by critics is the lack of a single cause for third-wave feminism. The first wave fought for and gained the right for women to vote. The second wave struggled to obtain the right for women to have access and equal opportunity to the workforce, as well as ending of legal sex discrimination.

The third wave of feminism, some argue, lacks a cohesive goal, and it is often seen as an extension of the second wave. Also, third-wave feminism does not have a set definition that can distinguish itself from second-wave feminism. Some argue the third wave can be dubbed the "Second Wave, Part Two" when it comes to the politics of feminism, and "only young feminist culture as truly third wave".

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Feminism is done! It accomplished it's mission; there is literally nothing in our culture that women are barred from doing, and in fact have a great deal of advantages in certain areas (mostly family court and criminal court). Women have the right to vote, they have the right to abort an unwanted or inadvisable fetus. They. Are. Equal.

Only in first-world/developed countries, in less stable/third-world nations women are far from equal.

Now that first-world women are equal in the most important/critical aspects, the feminists had nothing else to do. So obviously they moved onto the smaller things.

That's basically what modern feminism is, privileged people who have moved on women's rights/equality to women's woes/worries/complaints.

Or to copy from Wiki:

One issue raised by critics is the lack of a single cause for third-wave feminism. The first wave fought for and gained the right for women to vote. The second wave struggled to obtain the right for women to have access and equal opportunity to the workforce, as well as ending of legal sex discrimination.

The third wave of feminism, some argue, lacks a cohesive goal, and it is often seen as an extension of the second wave. Also, third-wave feminism does not have a set definition that can distinguish itself from second-wave feminism. Some argue the third wave can be dubbed the "Second Wave, Part Two" when it comes to the politics of feminism, and "only young feminist culture as truly third wave".

While it's true feminism if pretty much done in the west, in the developing nations that do practice gender discrimination, I'd prefer they go by "human rights advocate," because nations that treat women as second class citizens, usually also have issues that are just as bad that affect both genders.

Also don't forget: the reason feminism even got off the ground in the first place here in the west was because they were privledged enough to afford to go on protests and attend rallies and stuff.

 

[carnex]

Regarding first-world problems, now that femnists have ironed out most important/critical aspects of gender equality, they have moved onto the smaller things.

1) Problem is that large groups within the feminist community are using social inequalities of women in some other countries to pressure governments and other governing/ruling bodies into further concessions in their.

2) They are doing their best to push their views on various issues like sexuality, which is what we are discussing here most of the time, as only acceptable views.

Captcha = you win
Hell Yeah!

 

[jehk]

I have to confess, I still don't understand half the so-called feminist reactions to that Tomb Raider reboot.

Not only is wanting to save someone from rape bad - somehow - but the old Tomb Raider (who quite clearly was shamelessly marketed on her tits) was talked up as some kind of bad-ass.

Logic!

Read this.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Trigger_warning

Knowledge!

EDIT: There's one particular scene where Lara is caught by the bad guys. That's totally a trigger for some women. It hits way too close to the mark.

I'm interested as to why we don't just go ahead and use these trigger warnings too.

Pictures of missing limbs and explosions (for military veterens)
Images of drugs and parties (for addicts and recovering addicts)
Passages about child abuse (for the abused)
Bible quotes (for atheists)
Pictures of meat (for vegans)
Pictures of any food at all (for anorexics)
Comments about break-ups
Pictures of attractive people (for the ugly)
Self-harm
Pictures of people smiling (for the depressed)
Song lyrics (for the deaf and tone-deaf)
Pictures of cats (for people who are allergic to cats)
Any mention of straight relationships or default gender identities that isn't negative
Any passage of text (for the illiterate)

Anyway, moving past my indulgence in a little bit of juvenile humor.

I've tried several times to try and type up a proper response to this asinine crap. If someone knows they are speaking with a rape victim then yes, watching what you say is good. If you are going into a place where there are likely to be people that were victims of rape (Like a forum for people to discuss it or what have you) then you should watch what you say or bring. But purchasing an M rated game and then having a fit of indignation when it shockingly has mature themes is on the head of the person purchasing the material.

As much as that list I posted is a joke, there are people that are victims of torture or survivors of public shootings and we don't have people get outraged over things that could trigger them to have flashbacks.

I don't want to come off as some sort of insensitive ass that doesn't care about the problems of other people, but what do you expect people to do? To never have anything that could possibly trigger someone to have a flashback to something horrible that happened to them?

Do you really have such little empathy for others? Do you really not understand the point being made? I'm not sure what you are blathering about. The Mature rating has nothing to do with it.

Let me explain...

Crystal Dynamics: We're reinventing Lara as a women who's more than just an adolescent sexual fantasy. Women will have a protagonist they can identify with and feel empowered by.

Some Women: That scene where Lara almost gets captured [and strangled to death if you fail] didn't make me feel empowered. In fact, it reminded me of a time when I had no power. Not a good way to go about empowering women.

EDIT: Yes, if you cared about the feelings of other you would use trigger warnings. It's really not that hard.

 

[Yuuki]

Let me explain...

Crystal Dynamics: We're reinventing Lara as a women who's more than just an adolescent sexual fantasy. Women will have a protagonist they can identify with and feel empowered by.

Some Women: That scene where Lara almost gets captured [and strangled to death if you fail] didn't make me feel empowered. In fact, it reminded me of a time when I had no power. Not a good way to go about empowering women.

Some women: That scene where Lara gets crushed by a boulder and unable to move didn't make me feel empowered. In fact, it reminded me of a time when I had no power. Not a good way to go about empowering women. Also when she got impaled by spikes if you fail, that didn't make me feel empowered either.

That's the "gameplay" part of the game, you fail if you don't do anything and you CAN empower yourself if you do something. How about that.

It's important to remember that the "some X group" with their own opinions will always exist (and they have a right to free speech). But it's important to know how much attention/weight to give to their opinions...similar as to how you wouldn't give much weight to the opinions of a bunch of pre-schoolers, or the opinions of a tribe of primitive cave-people. They simply don't know better and will never be able to see the forest for the trees.

 

[jehk]

Some women: That scene where Lara gets crushed by a boulder and unable to move didn't make me feel empowered. In fact, it reminded me of a time when I had no power. Not a good way to go about empowering women. Also when she got impaled by spikes if you fail, that didn't make me feel empowered either.

It's important to remember that the "some X group" with their own opinions will always exist. But it's important to know how much attention/weight you give to their opinions, similar as to how you wouldn't give much weight to the opinions of a bunch of pre-schoolers, or the opinions of a tribe of primitive cave-people.

What are the stats of women being crushed by a boulders [or impaled by spikes] and women being the victims of [sexual] assault?

Spoiler Warning: One of these is an actual problem for many women in our society.

 

[carnex]

There must be a line between uncomfortable feeling and censorship. I didn't feel good at all when my nationality was presented as group of psychopaths, but i didn't scream my head off. I know nobody intended to insult me. I didn't allow me to project myself onto characters harder than IMAX theater. I wrote single letter of complaint to company and I was done. That is normal reaction.

Blaming others for issues one person, or relatively small subset of a larger group has is sign of instability of immaturity. I can understand that people have problems with scenes that trigger some personal traumas, but that never was and never should be grounds for censorship or we would have ground for banning every single piece of media ever created.

 

[Yuuki]

Some women: That scene where Lara gets crushed by a boulder and unable to move didn't make me feel empowered. In fact, it reminded me of a time when I had no power. Not a good way to go about empowering women. Also when she got impaled by spikes if you fail, that didn't make me feel empowered either.

It's important to remember that the "some X group" with their own opinions will always exist. But it's important to know how much attention/weight you give to their opinions, similar as to how you wouldn't give much weight to the opinions of a bunch of pre-schoolers, or the opinions of a tribe of primitive cave-people.

What are the stats of women being crushed by a boulders [or impaled by spikes] and women being the victims of [sexual] assault?

What are the stats of women fighting off their [sexual] attackers and then shooting them in the face with a gun? Wiggle the analog stick and then press X, it's a video game.

 

[Yuuki]

Wasn't Lara Croft more than just sexual fantasy prior towards the reboot though?

Seeing as how she was a fully controllable protagonist playing as an adventurer/explorer seeking historical artifacts, solving puzzles, and defeating countless enemies/bosses on the way...I would say yes, she was more than a sexual fantasy even prior to the reboot

Those who classify Lara as "only" a sexual fantasy (and nothing else) can be safely ignored.

 

[jehk]

Wasn't Lara Croft more than just sexual fantasy prior towards the reboot though?

Maybe for some. Old Lara was certainly an adolescent male sexual fantasy. I can't say the same about new Lara. Sure, she's attractive but she's not portrayed as being sexy or desirable (or wearing a catsuit lol). Look at the kind of poses you see on the box art.

 

[jehk]

Wasn't Lara Croft more than just sexual fantasy prior towards the reboot though?

Seeing as how she was a fully controllable protagonist playing as an adventurer/explorer seeking historical artifacts, solving puzzles, and defeating countless enemies/bosses on the way...I would say yes, she was more than a sexual fantasy even prior to the reboot

You don't think that's not part of the adolescent male sexual fantasy?

 

[carnex]

Nope, what you are referring to is media hijack of character. Crystal Dynamics and Core Design before that never treated her as eyecandy.

 

[jehk]

Nope, what you are referring to is media hijack of character. Crystal Dynamics and Core Design before that never treated her as eyecandy.

[citation needed]

Even if the very original Lara wasn't designed to be eye candy it soon became that way in later games and movies.

Lara became a sex symbol.

 

[Yuuki]

Wasn't Lara Croft more than just sexual fantasy prior towards the reboot though?

Seeing as how she was a fully controllable protagonist playing as an adventurer/explorer seeking historical artifacts, solving puzzles, and defeating countless enemies/bosses on the way...I would say yes, she was more than a sexual fantasy even prior to the reboot

You don't think that's not part of the adolescent male sexual fantasy?

Exploring caves, platforming puzzles and killing monsters = adolescent male sexual fantasy?

I don't think you and I have the same definition of "sexual fantasy". Look it up.

Nope, what you are referring to is media hijack of character. Crystal Dynamics and Core Design before that never treated her as eyecandy.

[citation needed]

Even if the very original Lara wasn't designed to be eye candy it soon became that way in later games and movies.

Lara became a sex symbol.

James Bond is also a sex symbol, while at the same time being much more than that.

Don't see the point of this obsession over pigeon-holing characters into something that serves only one purpose.
If Lara was truly a sexual fantasy and nothing more that, she would not be featuring as a game protagonist to begin with. She'd just be some side-character who exists solely for nude/lingerie scenes and sex (and nothing else).