Should Illegal Immigrants have the same rights as U.S. citizens?

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44-Blue

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Jul 1, 2010
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If you are a US citizen, what rights do you expect to have in other countries? Does that change if you are there legally or illegally?

I have met americans living illegally in england, thailand and japan, if these guys were caught and treated as badly as some immigrants in the west/US, how would your government/press/citizens react?
 

DuctTapeJedi

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They deserve some of the rights, such as protection from exploitation, but rights such as the right to vote should be reserved for full citizens only. I don't want to screw over all of the immigrants who worked really hard to come here legally.

EDIT:
Whichi said:
Sir John the Net Knight said:
The keyword is ILLEGAL! They are breaking the law by being here. They have the right to be arrested, deported and to get in the back of the line.
With a fucking watertight arguement like this one, such a question should rendered moot.

outside of the basic human rights, what rights do you deserve for hopping a few fucking fences and stealing someone else's identity so you can live your idea of the easy life? (I say your idea because there's a lot of illegal immigrants in California that go back and forth to mexico and earn a few dollars a day and take that money home and live pretty nice for a few weeks before deciding to come back)
I'm sorry, did you say easy life? Most of these people work insanely hard in low paying jobs just to support their families back home.

EDIT 2: God, I love this man.
 

outcesticide69

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Of course not, immigrants that legally become us citizens should have the same rights. Illegals just ruin the economy and take jobs that college and high school students need.
 

dex-dex

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If they do not play by the rules then why should they get the same rights as a citizen?
Why should get cuts in the line?
 

44-Blue

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AjimboB said:
Rewdalf said:
I am a US immigrant, and I had to go through the process of becoming a citizen.
I deserve my rights, so I don't agree to giving them to those who skip the necessary process...

I'm from Bulgaria if anyone is wondering, by the way...
This^^^

Hell, I'm from Russia. Do you know how hard it was to immigrate from Russia to America during the cold war? The only reason they let me in is because I'm of Jewish decent.

I'm English, got good grades and earn more than enough money. I can move to Australia or Canada, (or pretty much anywhere else in the world) but for some reason I am not good enough for the US? (This was kinda annoying when I found out - was going out with an american girl) Would I want to live there illegally? Nope, and fuck the lottery system or having to get married as well :)

But... If I was living illegally, I would expect to be bounced straight out if caught, no complaints.. but surely if I was working, could speak the language, wanted to fit in and making a contribution to society, it would be better to let me stay and take my tax $$ and the rest??
 

Signa

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Hafrael said:
Signa said:
When I say source your claims I mean, source this specifically:

For every good hard working Mexican we don't see, I see 10 more refusing to learn the country's language (don't give me that no official language bullshit. No one speaks french here and expects the rest of American to know it or cater to them), living off of welfare, and even joining gangs and becoming murderers.
They do pay taxes, and they generally pay more taxes than you. Just because you would want to cheat the system doesn't mean that everyone does.
So you are wanting me to source people who are trying to remain invisible, because you disagree that there are Mexican gangs and illegal aliens on welfare? Well, I doubt anyone can if they haven't been surveyed.

Well, a Quick Google search got me this:
Welfare
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2010/mar/county-spends-600-mil-welfare-illegals

Murderers/death-rate

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=39031

But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws.

While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers for another annual death toll of 4,745. That's 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001.

While no one in or out of government tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year's 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens.

A report by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Study found 20 percent of fatal accidents involve at least one driver who lacks a valid license. In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers.
bolded part showing 25 people die a day at the hands of people who aren't supposed to be here

Friend's dad that got murdered:
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58730/arrest-made-in-murder-of-galen-may

Obviously I can't verify these claims personally, and I wouldn't even know how. Who knows if it's all misinformation put out by racists (except the friend's dad part). But my point is still the same; they are rude guests in this country, regardless if they are paying taxes. I shouldn't have to tolerate the neighbor kid coming over and breaking a ton of stuff and smearing mud on my walls even if I'm getting reimbursed for it.

A quick Google search shows you are right about illegals paying taxes, so I'm glad. Maybe my image of the "average Mexican worker" is skewed, but if I was in their place, I don't even know why I'd pay income taxes. Reading the 1040 forms would be troublesome without knowing English and I probably would be employed under the table, or just doing odd jobs since most employers won't hire illegals. Given the choice between going through the work of filing and not filing, I'd not file because there would be little point. It's not a matter of trying to cheat the system as much as going through work that I see no point in with an increased risk of INS knocking at my door. However...

Last year, 1.4 million people filed tax returns using the numbers. That's an increase of 40 percent over the previous year.

In 2003, 7,600 people in New Mexico requested the numbers.

For opponents of illegal immigration, the system shows the federal government's fractured approach to the country's undocumented work force.

Immigrant-rights groups say paying taxes is one way immigrants show they want to comply with US laws.
source
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/1424.html

...this certainly gives me some faith.

Or maybe a lot more employers are able to hire illegals than I realized, and they just want their return like everyone else. In that case, the assumption that they are abandoning the money that is pulled out of their check each week is false. That's where I thought this "paying taxes" bit came from, since there wasn't a way as far as I know how to get that money back without a social security number.
 

Warforger

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RUINER ACTUAL said:
Paragraph One - So, because our system is flawed, probably on purpose, it's okay to break the law?
Morally yes. The system is badly flawed so that agricultural companies have to hire illegal immigrants because no US citizens take them.

RUINER ACTUAL said:
Paragraph Two - How dare you say they do jobs no American will do. What jobs are those and why won't American citizens do them?
These are agricultural jobs, they take up the longest work hours, they're repetitive, you work in hot conditions and the pay is way too small. This is what California found out when it passed a bill to deport the illegals in the 70's, no one in the US takes these jobs besides immigrants and so when the immigrants were stopped no one took these newly vacated jobs, the agricultural companies suffered in California and so then the bill was repealed.
 

Warforger

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RUINER ACTUAL said:
Paragraph One - So, because our system is flawed, probably on purpose, it's okay to break the law?
Morally yes. The system is badly flawed so that agricultural companies have to hire illegal immigrants because no US citizens take them.

RUINER ACTUAL said:
Paragraph Two - How dare you say they do jobs no American will do. What jobs are those and why won't American citizens do them?
These are agricultural jobs, they take up the longest work hours, they're repetitive, you work in hot conditions and the pay is way too small. This is what California found out when it passed a bill to deport the illegals in the 70's, no one in the US takes these jobs besides immigrants and so when the immigrants were stopped no one took these newly vacated jobs, the agricultural companies suffered in California and so then the bill was repealed.
 

Luke5515

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Of course not. I mean, sure, some rights are universal, but ask me to let them vote and work and I say nay!
 

BenzSmoke

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In my opinion: No. (Basic human rights not withstanding.) Real hard working citizens that pay taxes to keep the programs that allow our high standard of living should be allowed the fruits of their labor. An illegal immigrant that comes to our country to take advantage of these systems, while not helping pay for them with taxes (Because they aren't registered citizens.) is wrong.

I really don't want to sound mean here, I'm all for cultural diffusion and giving people better lives. But free loading just isn't cool.

On the other hand: Becoming a citizen legally can, literally, take years. These poor people want better lives for themselves and their families now, not in five years. All they want is to live a good life, just like the rest of us. So both sides of the argument are valid.

If the American government took it upon themselves to stream-line the citizenship process then, maybe, we wouldn't have this problem.
 

Ensiferum

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No, they should not have the same rights as an American citizen, in fact they should be arrested and prosecuted like any other criminal because being ILLEGAL immigrants, they're BREAKING THE LAW. If however they come to the country through legal means and show that they're willing to work hard and learn the language in order to garner the benefits of being a US citizen, then they're more then welcome to be here.
 

RUINER ACTUAL

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Warforger said:
RUINER ACTUAL said:
Paragraph One - So, because our system is flawed, probably on purpose, it's okay to break the law?
Morally yes. The system is badly flawed so that agricultural companies have to hire illegal immigrants because no US citizens take them.

RUINER ACTUAL said:
Paragraph Two - How dare you say they do jobs no American will do. What jobs are those and why won't American citizens do them?
These are agricultural jobs, they take up the longest work hours, they're repetitive, you work in hot conditions and the pay is way too small. This is what California found out when it passed a bill to deport the illegals in the 70's, no one in the US takes these jobs besides immigrants and so when the immigrants were stopped no one took these newly vacated jobs, the agricultural companies suffered in California and so then the bill was repealed.
Well where I live, the farmers hire the very willing high school students around to help on the farms. Many of them have stopped hiring "sesonal workers" in favor of them.
 

Thedayrecker

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Yes. They're taken advantage of, and half the country wants to build a wall to keep them out (which in itself seems kind of barbaric). Instead of throwing them out, give the hard-working ones (see: most of them), and their families, citizenship.

My mom came here illegaly, but worked hard her whole life, did great in school, went to college, became a citizen, and unfortunatly makes only half of what my dad (who didn't go to college) makes.

Is it because she's a woman? Or hispanic? Who knows?

But I digress. Yes they should have the same rights.
 

DiMono

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They shouldn't get all the rights of citizenship, but they should be able to follow a clear path toward being a citizen, rather than being demonized and expelled without a second thought. They're in America to find a better life, so why not give them the chance to do it the right way?
 

Sn1P3r M98

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Hell no! If they want to live in our country, they can complete the immigration process and immigrate legally. It's not fair to those who have legally immigrated that these guys can just hop the border and call themselves citizens.

Illegal immigration is a huge problem down here in New Mexico.
 

Hawk eye1466

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they shouldnt be aloud to vote or have a job and should be deported back to whatever country they came from
this may sound really mean but i am tired of that loophole that allows people to come over here have a baby and cheat the people that are waiting and trying to become citizens legally its not fair then they cry that they have to stay for their poor children. they snuck in and have no right to have a job or vote here but they get to anyway it sucks but they shouldnt be aloud to stay because you feel bad for them they broke the law its not fair to anyone but them
 

Baron von Awesome

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iblis666 said:
Baron von Awesome said:
It's a very complicated issue. While the process of becoming a citizen is extremely complicated and in some cases almost impossible I think that it's almost more of a pragmatic decision on the part of the U.S. government than anything else. The developed world's wealth relies on the poverty of the developing world. I'm not a Marxist, but even I realize that my quality of life in the U.S. would be much lower were everyone in the world to have a fair shot. Also the limited amount of legal immigration and naturalization allows for only the best and the brightest of the developing world to immigrate. This further perpetuates the poverty of the poor by removing their fellow countrymen who could actually contribute to the growth of their own economy.

Illegal immigrants, specifically from south of the U.S. border, fill a very important role in the U.S. economy. Despite what many may think of them as just simply plundering the economy, and running home to Mexico. They often do the jobs that U.S. citizens see themselves as too good for such as construction, busing tables in restaurants and washing dishes, mass agriculture, and many other things. But I would also like to point out that while this system is corrupt in many ways it also has advantages for many illegal immigrants. In a restaurant a dishwasher could become a chef, or a construction worker could become a foreman. These realities exist, and I've seen them time and time again usually because the possible chef has proven to be a skilled and reliable worker that would work for less. However, as you can imagine this has a negative impact on many skilled workers in the U.S. chefs in chain restaurants like Chile's make nothing in the southwest, because an illegal immigrant who is maybe in the process of naturalizing or has just been around a while will work for less and communicate more efficiently with the kitchen staff who mostly speak only Spanish.

Although many point to smuggling and the drug cartels as a major part of illegal immigration from what I've seen I tend to disagree. I also believe that if legal immigration were expanded upon that the cartels would be easier to pick out. If someone noticed someone trying to smuggle across the border it would probably be more likely to be a smuggler rather than just another illegal immigrant. Also the extensive border is really almost impossible to completely wall off and restrict immigration. For those of you who are Canadians can you imagine the logistic that would be involved if nearly every American citizen who wasn't eligible for Canadian citizenship wanted to sneak across the border to Canada? There's not enough people in Canada to stop them! To be fair the border with Canada and the U.S. is a bit larger than the U.S. Mexico border, but not by too terribly much.

In other words, I believe that were the U.S. to make the correct moral choice they would expand legal immigration tenfold. However, if the U.S. were to make the pragmatic choice that would benefit its citzens the most, then I would do pretty much nothing and just pretend to do stuff when the public was riled up about it. As far as those American born chefs and construction foremen who have lost their jobs to cheaper labor? Well, I suppose they can always join the army. *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
not exactly what they do are jobs that pay below the poverty line and they pay below the poverty line because the illegals dont live in this country they are just visiting and funneling cash that should circulate through the system out of it. If the pay was at the lvl it should be us citizens would be happy to do it hell some citizens would even do the jobs of illegals at the pay they get but its filled all ready by an illegal.
This isn't necessarily true. There are some cases where illegals get paid below minimum wage, but most situations I've been involved with they get paid more. In construction, I knew illegal immigrants that would pull off about $400 a week and this was back about five or six years ago when minimum wage was still $5.15 in the U.S. Also this isn't really skilled labor I'm talking about, it's mostly laying foundations. Other people are doing all the hard work behind it most of them were just digging ditches, shoveling concrete, and smoothing it out. Now it is true that most citizens would be unwilling to do this kind of work for that pay, but relatively that's pretty good pay. Especially when you factor in that your average fast food worker made $212.60 before taxes took out about $30 for the same hours.

I won't say the siphoning thing isn't entirely true, but mostly it's back to the families which eventually end up over here and begin the process of eventually being naturalized either by having children in the U.S. or through the legal methods of doing so for illegal immigrants. Think about it. If the head of the household is making more money in the U.S. he isn't going to go back to live in Mexico unless he can get a better job there.
 

BrassButtons

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scorptatious said:
Personally, I don't think they should. If you aren't going to make the effort to register yourself as a U.S. citizen, than you shouldn't even be in America.
So people born in the US should either make the same effort to register as citizens or GTFO, right?
 

Manmancer

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Nov 18, 2010
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I've just skimmed this thread, but I'm intrigued that few bother noticing that there are many divisions between "citizen" and "illegal alien." Permanent residents are one category, for example, as are those present in the country on student visas. None of those people are citizens, nor do they acquire the rights of "citizenship," but they get the vast majority of rights regardless.

I raise this because, above, the rejoinder is usually "No! They're not even citizens!" But non-citizens enjoy plenty of rights. Heck, alienage restrictions generally draw heightened (and usually strict) scrutiny on judicial review, meaning you can't arbitrarily deny rights to non-citizens.

My point, simply, is to emphasize that gradations exist. Also, with regard to this:
they shouldnt be aloud to vote or have a job and should be deported back to whatever country they came from
this may sound really mean but i am tired of that loophole that allows people to come over here have a baby and cheat the people that are waiting and trying to become citizens legally its not fair then they cry that they have to stay for their poor children
First, illegal immigrants generally cannot vote, as voting is reserved for citizens. Second, the "anchor baby" phenomenon is not due to a loophole: it's the Fourteenth Amendment. And one messes with the Fourteenth Amendment at one's peril.