Should immigrants be required to integrate to receive benefits?

[DeltaEdge]

Hm, after reading over the whole thread, I'd have to say yes, but with some caveats.

To be more clear, I think that it should be up to the government to mandate what the requirements are to receive benefits, as well as to move into the country and become a citizen, and they should be up front about what is required in order to receive what. So in this case, since he moved to the country successfully and was not required to learn the language, and I am assuming was paying taxes and such like any other citizen, I don't think that they should be able to suddenly rip the welfare rug from right out under him, even if he refuses to learn the language. However, I think that if the government had decided before hand that knowledge of the language/agreeing to learn the language was a necessity to receiving benefits, or immigrating into the country in general, then I see no problem with them removing benefits if he had not held up his end of the bargain, or worse, being deported if the later consequence was the case.

As for the whole "cultural assimilation" thing, I think that's a bit too far-fetched to really expect anyone to change their personal culture solely to fit in with where they live. I think that if they wanted to attempt something like this, it would have to be more centered around specific rules that immigrants must follow until they become fully-fledged citizens, such as practicing a standard amount of pre-dictated etiquette as is deemed necessary by the government, and being required to learn the language to a functional level. While this could be very imposing on them, I do think that considering that the country has no obligation to them whatsoever, and is allowing them to immigrate solely for the immigrant's benefit, that they should be able to exercise this level of control over people that they allow into their country until they become proper citizens, or really whatever rules they wish to enforce, since it's their country after all.

I'd also like to point out on the side how silly I think the If you want to keep all your old customs, then just go back to your old country argument is. I mean, there could be a war going on, or the place you are living in could be extremely dangerous and uninhabitable, necessitating a change of environment in order to continue living. While I don't particularly look highly upon the people that move move to a new country, and then constantly flip them the bird, I certainly don't think that there's no reason why they moved here. They moved to wherever they moved for better opportunity/safety, and no amount of cultural nationalism changes that, and if they have been accepted into the country as citizens, then they should be allowed to do as they please, just like the rest of us.

 

[Ninmecu]

Yes they should have to integrate not only is integration good for the society as a whole by fostering unity and discouraging isolated enclaves
if you do not want to integrate why not go back to your own scum hole county if it was so great there if you are coming to make a better life for yourself and your family you have to grasp the whole lot including our society and culture and not make it shit hole mk2 in another part of the world

of course i am not saying that other cultures have nothing to add but there has to be something lesser about them if the people are wanting to emigrate or flee and integration is the best way to add to the pot and strengthen the whole

YES.

If you move to another nation, and play on staying there, you damn well better learn the language and basic customs.

If you're on 'welfare', I think you should be cut off if you can't at least WRITE in the local language.

I want to say no, because it sounds ignorant and terrible, but then I ask myself, if they are refusing to learn about the community they are a part of then why are they here? I'm sure there is a multitude of acceptable answers to that question, but I still find it completely disrespectful to the country they have made themselves a part of.

I bet you guys just love the idea of Colonialism.

But in a less offensive manner. I've always found the subject of immigration to be ridiculous. We're nomadic by nature in most cultures. We get bombarded by propoganda about how great it is to live in country X Y Z. Told that we could live better lives if we just make the switch. It's rather hypocritical of people to berate people for wanting to live in this supposedly better country and abandon everything that makes them unique. The separations that stem from it ultimately lead to a division that will almost certainly never get repaired. In Canada(Where I was born/raised/currently reside) the "dot" variation of the Indian(s) get segregated into their own separate communities when they take on welfare/immigration pension/low income rent. Instead of offering them the chance to become a part of the community as a whole, they're blatantly thrown aside to the corner surrounded by their own culture rather than being at least partly immersed in it.

I'll agree, learning the language should be essential. Communication is the cornerstone of our entire species. But it should never come at the cost of ones original Culture. The Indian Act of 1867 is a perfect example of "intergration" done horribly HORRIBLY wrong. Residential Schools, Reserves, Indian Affairs agents, all things designed with the sole purpose of killing the Indian (feather this time) in the Indian Child/Adult. When done wrong, integration kills, right alongside racism.

 

[Tanis]

@Ninmecu
Or, maybe, some of us would rather folks NOT cut off the Clitoris of little girls because it's part of THEIR culture, not OURS.

It's also annoying as hell to try work with someone who's a 2nd generation that can barely speak English.
IF I moved immigrated to another nation that didn't speak English I'd be expected to learn to at least a PASSABLE version of that nation's language.

Why is it 'racist' when English speakers want other people to learn OUR language when they VOLUNTARY moved to OUR nation?
But it's 'NOT racist' when non-English speakers want us to learn THEIR language when we move to THEIR nations?

It's not about 'abandoning everything you are', it's about (at least in America) realizing you're part of a SALAD, not a appetizer tray/veggie platter.

 

[Trivea]

If he's been living there for a quarter of a century and hasn't even bothered to learn the language, how in the world did he run a successful business there?

Immigrants should be required to integrate, end of statement. Look, I get that some people have to move to a new country because of financial hardships or that sort of thing, but that doesn't change the fact that they still have to make an effort. If he's living in Germany but he doesn't speak German, then he's inconveniencing those around him by his inability to communicate (I'm speaking as an American, living in the South, who doesn't speak very much Spanish; I have a lot of people who are downright offended when I speak English /in America/ and don't know anything more than "Yo no hablo español").

He's had twenty-four years to learn the language and he doesn't by now? You don't even have to be fluent in order to speak a language passably. There are a lot of people who have run successful businesses in Germany. I don't see why the government should give a concession to someone who won't even make the effort to learn to communicate properly.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Learning the language, both spoken and written, of the land is about the only clause I'd make ironclad because that's one you can teach and measure. Measuring ones ability to understand and respond to cultural nuance is something else entirely.

 

[Thaluikhain]

2: Even if they didn't, why would you need it? Millions upon millions of past immigrants have learned the language of the country they immigrated to without expensive lessons. To give one good example, Arnold Schwarzenegger immigrated to the US when he was 21, barely speaking a word of English (he had almost no money either). How did he learn English? By watching movies and TV, reading books, avoiding surrounding himself entirely with German speaking people, and doing everything he could to practice his English whenever possible (he did eventually take English classes, but not until 9 years after he arrived). When Schwarzenegger suggested that Hispanic immigrants do the same thing and turn off Univision and Telemundo and Spanish radio stations, he was called racist and was told that he "didn't understand immigration". Yes, a guy who immigrated here with no English ability and $17 in his pocket clearly knows nothing about the immigrant experience.

He understands his experience, not everyone is going to share it. He has the advantage, off the top of my head, of being a white European, and thus not subject to the same racism.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

2: Even if they didn't, why would you need it? Millions upon millions of past immigrants have learned the language of the country they immigrated to without expensive lessons. To give one good example, Arnold Schwarzenegger immigrated to the US when he was 21, barely speaking a word of English (he had almost no money either). How did he learn English? By watching movies and TV, reading books, avoiding surrounding himself entirely with German speaking people, and doing everything he could to practice his English whenever possible (he did eventually take English classes, but not until 9 years after he arrived). When Schwarzenegger suggested that Hispanic immigrants do the same thing and turn off Univision and Telemundo and Spanish radio stations, he was called racist and was told that he "didn't understand immigration". Yes, a guy who immigrated here with no English ability and $17 in his pocket clearly knows nothing about the immigrant experience.

He understands his experience, not everyone is going to share it. He has the advantage, off the top of my head, of being a white European, and thus not subject to the same racism.

Yes, because no one in America hates, or has ever hated other white Europeans, like the Italians, or the Irish, or the French, or the Polish, or the Russians.

 

[Neonit]

If they pay the taxes they have every right to receive the same benefits.
I can see arguments for encouraging learning the language..... but have you ever tried to do so with someone from UK or USA?

"Why should i, everyone speaks english, and if they dont - they should".

I have seen enough people from UK living here for more than 15 years, unable to speak a single sentence in Dutch (or just barely). Yet constantly i hear about the "the arabs" who dare not to know the language after a couple of years.

See, as far as im concerned a lot of people see no difference between "integration" and "assimilation".
Of course, you need to obey the countries laws. If you dont, police will catch you (or attempt to do so).
You should be able to at least speak the language at basic level, thats just because of convenience of both parties.

But attending local celebrations/holidays, changing "your way of life", forgoing own culture.... Force that - and you will get riots. And why would you do that?

Because it would make YOU feel more comfortable?

Give them cheap/free language classes, check on their progress to make sure they are not slacking (that seems to happen fairly often. put 30 people of same country in a classroom and they will speak their own language) and make it cheaper to get nationality if you "integrate", and trust me - more people will do so.

 

[Victim of Progress]

Yes they should have to integrate not only is integration good for the society as a whole by fostering unity and discouraging isolated enclaves
if you do not want to integrate why not go back to your own scum hole county if it was so great there if you are coming to make a better life for yourself and your family you have to grasp the whole lot including our society and culture and not make it shit hole mk2 in another part of the world

of course i am not saying that other cultures have nothing to add but there has to be something lesser about them if the people are wanting to emigrate or flee and integration is the best way to add to the pot and strengthen the whole

Totally agree with you there. If you came to another country, you should try to intergrade. That is the price you have to pay for better opportunities

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes, because no one in America hates, or has ever hated other white Europeans, like the Italians, or the Irish, or the French, or the Polish, or the Russians.

Note that I said "same racism". Assuming that the same amount of people in the US currently hate white Europeans as they do Hispanics (and citation needed on that), that racism is likely to take different forms.

 

[Dimitriov]

I... really have never understood why anyone would be allowed to become a permanent resident of another country without learning the language and actually becoming a citizen of that country.

It is completely absurd to move to another country and expect that country to put up with you (and in this case financially support you) while you act as if it was burdensome to even be there. If you move to Germany then frickin' learn German and take part in their culture. Otherwise, why the hell did you go there in the first place?

At a minimum it's rude, at the most extreme it feels like you are trying to turn someone else's country into your own.

 

[SinisterGehe]

If you want to live on the land you live with the land's rules. I am not saying they should give up their identity, religion and culture.
But like the nationalist party here says.
1. Learn the language
2. Follow the law
3. Respect the locals

If they want to reap the benefits then they have to pay something in return.
Example while there was a community of Arab immigrants that basically scammed the welfare system. They reported to have 6 children (when legally they had 2 living here, rest were in their respective country of origin) and they also reported not to be married to each other. So they got 2x Unemployment benefits + the living aid (50% of rent) + 6x Child benefits + 2x single parent support. They made around 2500? before taxes and often they took their bills to social security claiming they were unable to afford them - then majority of the money was funneled to foreign countries. (Note average Finn made 2200 before taxes). The press made huge affair of this - and for a reason.

Also... One other thing... This is personal hate.
I am sick of seeing unemployed immigrants in a new car, designer clothes, jewelry, the newest apple products. When I eat baked beans, rice and tuna every day. Can afford to buy a pair of pants and shoes once a year if I am lucky and cheap.
Standardize the benefits to be equal to average Finns. Serve them what we eat.

I don't hate immigrants, I hate my government for how they are treated better than average finns.

 

[Bertylicious]

Aight, so here's the funny thing:

Forcing people to learn the native language has the counter effect of actually increasing immigration, not decreasing it. If Gary is a super duper IT specailist and is being sent to Cairo by his employer then he will be given language training by them if he needs to speak the language to do his job, though as English is pretty much the defacto business language they may not bother. Gary is also offered a relocation package and he decides he's going to move his family out there.

Gary's wife Linda does not learn the language and gets pretty bored. Gary's kids go to an English speaking school so they aren't having to adapt to a new language, but they don't grow any real afinity with the country. When Gary's secondment ends they all leave with little fan fare.

Now if Gary's family were required to learn the language as part of their move then they may start to view Cairo as a home rather than another bullshit town that dickhead Gary has dragged them all to. They may even decide to live there on a more permanent basis.

In my view, legislating that residents must learn this or that is basically sending a mixed message that you want people to settle in your country whilst at the same time making it harder for them to do so. It's a nonsense. Either tell everyone to fuck off or make it easier for people to settle.

 

[IronMit]

After you become a citizen you should be the same as everyone else and get the benefits.

Learning English/integrating or bringing skills should be a pre-requisite to becoming a citizen. You can't change the rules half way. What is required of you should be made clear before you even make the trip to 'immigrate' so you can make an informed decision.

I use the word citizen because that's word you use when you know that you are 'in' and it's official forever. Visas are not permanent and rules can and will change so you know the government could cut you off any time.



And what does 'integrating' even mean. you need to join a club or go to the pub? Such a subjection term

 

[Strazdas]

Yes. If you come to my country, learn my culture, and when i come to yours, ill learn yours.

If you were happier with the culture in your own home country then you should stay there.
.

Except when people need to move for employment, better standard of living, better access to healthcare/education...
There're so many reasons why people immigrate, it's frequently not a choice.

Well, then obviuosly he wasnt happeir with his own culture that allowed to have poor standart of living, no heathcare/education, ect. We are not saying you should homogenize. you should integrate, that is, learn the culture of country you are going to and behave accordingly.

Gary's wife Linda does not learn the language and gets pretty bored. Gary's kids go to an English speaking school so they aren't having to adapt to a new language, but they don't grow any real afinity with the country. When Gary's secondment ends they all leave with little fan fare.

Garys kids go to school in native language because ALL schools are in native language. excelt in crazy countries like mine where half of them are polish even though we have 4.3% polish here, meaning most natives actually are forced to learn polish.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

Yes, yes!

People, when I say yes, I do not mean:

"YOU MUST HAVE 3-4 SOCIAL MEETINGS A WEEK AND DISCUSS THE LATEST SCANDAL/HOT TOPIC, OR WE TAKE ALL OF YOUR MONEYZ."

I mean, when you move to a country, TO LIVE, learn the damn language. Really. I don't care if you can get by just fine by walking in and repeating bathroom until they realise what you are saying, if you are living some place, their language is used to converse, order, inform of danger, read and pretty much everything! It's not asking people to abandon their culture or lives, it's just asking them to speak the same tongue as everyone else.

I mean, hell, in this guys case, he gets free government language teachers, and lived there for like, 24 years, and yet still doesn't know German!? Seriously!

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes. If you come to my country, learn my culture, and when i come to yours, ill learn yours.

Is there only one culture in your country? Because there's a fair few in mine.

 

[flarty]

You can integrate without losing your culture. If you're going to migrate somewhere the least you can do is learn the language. In fact refusal to integrate in some way creates segregation which leads to prejudice and hatred. So please bring your culture, just learn the language so you can share it with us.

Well, then obviuosly he wasnt happeir with his own culture that allowed to have poor standart of living.

I'm sorry thats the most ignorant comment i have seen in a good while. Economic conditions create poor standards of living. Its no surprise that tha vast majority of the Poor countries in the world are ex colonial.

 

[ascorbius]

My Wife is Korean,

Should I move to Korea, I would fully expect to learn Korean so that I could get on with my life there. It's common sense. English would get me by for a while as a lot of people speak it, but the reality would be that If I needed to get a job there or have any chance of making friends, I'd need to learn the customs and the language.

The alternative to not learning the language is that I'd form up with other English speakers into a little mini community which would feel very alien and unapproachable to the Koreans. Being in a strange land we'd bond closely and maintain our customs so things felt safe and familiar. We'd do various things which went against Korean culture and would invariably upset them. It would reduce the opinion of my culture in the eyes of the Koreans who would at best feel that we didn't believe their culture was worth our time and at worst, the Koreans would feel that they were being pushed out of their community, a place where they were there first. It could result in anger, racist comments and potentially violence.


In the case of the guy who feels forced to learn German in order to continue to receive benefits to support his family, I can empathize however that's the price to pay for their support. It's a tough love measure.

By learning the language there's more chance to meet people and improve his circumstances. No-one in Germany is going to speak his language so he'll constantly be seen as different. There's little chance that he'll be able to start a new business so he'll have to get a job at some point - to do that he'll have to learn the language. He's been there for 24 years, it's about time really. Although before we all judge too harshly, learning a new language when you're older is MUCH harder than when you're young.


By the way, being seen as different is not the same as racism. Racism is discrimination based on race. All Germans are required to learn German, so should everyone else wanting to live in Germany. It's racist not to enforce this.

 

[KeyMaster45]

The thing is, the government has not taken an unreasonable stance, the way I see it the government isn't trying to cram it down her throat, the husband is preventing his wife from looking for better work and rejecting job offers, even though there are jobs that he could work. If the wife took the offer for FREE lessons in German, she could get a better job to support her family seeing as he can't (or won't), the husband is to the point of making excuses for not finding work.

I don't think anyone should be forced to learn the language, but if they're offered the chance to learn through outreach programs, do I think they should take it? Hell yes!

At last, someone else who took the time to read the article before commenting.

The German system has done as much as they can for the guy's family as they're able, but the guy simply doesn't want. Him and his wife's inability to speak German fluently are, judging by the evidence relayed in the article, the monkey wrench in their ability to pull themselves out of the 7 year slump. The German welfare system seems to have given them ample opportunity to better themselves, and yes that's how this should be looked at not as trying to rob them of their culture, so that they no longer have to be on welfare. I'm all for welfare systems helping people to get back on their feet, like they're meant to, but if the husband is going to dig his heals in, turn down all the job offers given to him, and forbid his wife from taking the free language classes then I'd rather see some of the money they're receiving be allocated to another family that actually is putting forth the effort.