Should muslim women remove their veil in stores?

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hypothetical fact

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http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,24916230-5017672,00.html
I find it appropriate for muslim women to remove their veils as they enter the store and put them back on when they leave.
 

Abedeus

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Wait what? Why?

It doesn't hurt anyone. It's their tradition/law (forgot, pardon my ignorance), what's so offending in that?

I would rather make those shop keepers pay a fine for being racists.

Oooh, security. Well then, only in banks. But even then it's a bit not alright...
 

sequio

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Don't want to sound like a dick, but why can't they just shop where the facial attire is allowed? Just boycott businesses that require certain things and either shop at another business they prefer or get together and make that business for themselves? If i owned a business and people with their face covered were to come in on a daily basis, my first worry would be that one of them turns out to be an armed robber. If 15 people with faces covered were to do a snatch and run, holy shit. If Best Buy required me to take off my clothes every time i went in, i would just spend my money somewhere else that didn't have that requirement. Same reason i don't shop at wal mart. If you don't support the business, then don't shop there!
 

Copter400

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I'd like to ask, have there been any instances of criminal activity performed by women in full hijab?
 

sequio

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Copter400 said:
I'd like to ask, have there been any instances of criminal activity performed by women in full hijab?
yes. i'll get you the links hold on.

EDIT: http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=55342

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/feb/10/ukcrime.hughmuir

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\02\11\story_11-2-2007_pg7_2

From a quick google search. Tried to get stories from different places to show people with the intent think alike.
 

cptparallax

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Two things are worth considering:

1) Anglophone hijab wearers tend predominantly to be recently-migrated middle-class Muslim women. (Maintaining the 'traditional' lifestyle is actually fairly expensive and time-consuming, especially in the West, which pretty strongly discourages anything more elaborate than simple headscarves.) In general, immigrants' proclivity to crime closely follows economic standing - the more stable you are coming into a country, the less likely you are to wind up in a situation where high-visibility crime (e.g. theft/robbery as opposed to drugs and etc) is necessary or possible. In summary, the hijab is not particularly likely to be any kind of pressing security risk vis a vis any other item of clothing - there will occasionally be crimes committed by employing its concealment, but the same can be said about almost everything people see fit to wear.

2) Further, the veil itself - when you factor out the more specific and sectarian idea of hijab - is much less ideological and much more personal than most Westerners are aware of. While there are in fact specific theological reasons and justifications given for the wearing of elaborate coverture by women, the wearing of veils by Middle Eastern women is as consistent and unwavering as the wearing of trousers by Germanic men. (Both are well-attested in classical sources.) Because there is never a broad, bold line between culture and religion in practice, the upshot in this case is that coverture of the scalp and brow is not so much taken seriously as taken for granted by Middle Eastern women, especially those from more provincial or religious backgrounds. The removal of the veil is an intimate matter; it plays a role in both exhibitionism and assault, and whatever the ultimate intentions, mandating that middle eastern women remove their headwear before entering a store is roughly as tasteful and would be received more or less identically to asking anyone wearing a skirt to invert and tape it up before entering a store.
 

sequio

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cptparallax said:
Two things are worth considering:

1) Anglophone hijab wearers tend predominantly to be recently-migrated middle-class Muslim women. (Maintaining the 'traditional' lifestyle is actually fairly expensive and time-consuming, especially in the West, which pretty strongly discourages anything more elaborate than simple headscarves.) In general, immigrants' proclivity to crime closely follows economic standing - the more stable you are coming into a country, the less likely you are to wind up in a situation where high-visibility crime (e.g. theft/robbery as opposed to drugs and etc) is necessary or possible. In summary, the hijab is not particularly likely to be any kind of pressing security risk vis a vis any other item of clothing - there will occasionally be crimes committed by employing its concealment, but the same can be said about almost everything people see fit to wear.

2) Further, the veil itself - when you factor out the more specific and sectarian idea of hijab - is much less ideological and much more personal than most Westerners are aware of. While there are in fact specific theological reasons and justifications given for the wearing of elaborate coverture by women, the wearing of veils by Middle Eastern women is as consistent and unwavering as the wearing of trousers by Germanic men. (Both are well-attested in classical sources.) Because there is never a broad, bold line between culture and religion in practice, the upshot in this case is that coverture of the scalp and brow is not so much taken seriously as taken for granted by Middle Eastern women, especially those from more provincial or religious backgrounds. The removal of the veil is an intimate matter; it plays a role in both exhibitionism and assault, and whatever the ultimate intentions, mandating that middle eastern women remove their headwear before entering a store is roughly as tasteful and would be received more or less identically to asking anyone wearing a skirt to invert and tape it up before entering a store.
That was a lot of fluff. face...genitalia...not seeing the connection. Your first paragraph: That's the exact reason why it's not allowed, because it is a security risk. Same reason you can't carry toy guns, wear ski masks, carry in duffel bags, etc. As for the second paragraph, like I said, if you don't like the store having that type of requirement then don't shop there. Instead, spend your money in other places that you support.

EDIT: Crap, i took it seriously =(. Means time for bed.
 

Dele

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Not just muslim women, all women and male alike. Delusional fantasies should be no excuse for security..


Tattaglia said:
No. It's their religion. Deal with it.
No it's not. It's a branch of Islam and the whole "book says you gotta wear veil" is a highly controversial part of Koran. Besides it is also part of Christianity and Judaism to kill people and do deeds that are illegal by modern standards, so why should one religion be prefered over another?
 

Sewblon

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I don't see how it is ethical to legally require Muslim women to forgo their traditional garb.
 

Tattaglia

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Dele said:
Not just muslim women, all women and male alike. Delusional fantasies should be no excuse for security..


Tattaglia said:
No. It's their religion. Deal with it.
No it's not. It's a branch of Islam and the whole "book says you gotta wear veil" is a highly controversial part of Koran. Besides it is also part of Christianity and Judaism to kill people and do deeds that are illegal by modern standards, so why should one religion be prefered over another?
I'm not going to argue. I'm keeping my opinion, and so are you.

Let's just both agree to disagree. Goodnight.
 

Gitsnik

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Abedeus said:
Wait what? Why?

It doesn't hurt anyone. It's their tradition/law (forgot, pardon my ignorance), what's so offending in that?

I would rather make those shop keepers pay a fine for being racists.

Oooh, security. Well then, only in banks. But even then it's a bit not alright...
By the same token I should be permitted to wear a motorcycle helmet into a david jones - but I bet nobody will let me.
 

Abedeus

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Dele said:
Besides it is also part of Christianity and Judaism to kill people and do deeds that are illegal by modern standards, so why should one religion be prefered over another?
Wait, what? WHAT? I think there is somewhere in the Old Testament, to which both Christians and Jews listen (hehe) about loving your neighbour (other people) and that murder is a horrible sin. Guess why Adam cursed and then renounced Cain for killing his brother?

By the same token I should be permitted to wear a motorcycle helmet into a david jones - but I bet nobody will let me.
Is this a religion? I don't think there is something in any holy book about wearing motorycycle helmets. Anywhere.
 

Monkfish Acc.

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Um... Not that I know anything about anything, but isn't that sort of like asking a Sikh to remove his turban?
 

Fronken

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Not to sound like a complete douchebag, but i think it should be mandatory for them to remove their burkhas or whatever their called, the thing on their head, in all stores, why?, firstly, its a security risk, secondly, its a dumb religous rule, what bad can happen if they show their faces in public?, seriously??, i have seen muslim women take of their turbans or whatever and nothing ever happens...

Im not rascist, i just think its stupid as hell.
 

rossatdi

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Tattaglia said:
No. It's their religion. Deal with it.
Yes, but its still a stupid religion (aren't they all?).

The 59th verse of Surah al-Ahzab said:
Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed.
So, what, like wear a jumper or something? No one would look twice at you. I fail to see how that is convenient.

The 31st verse of Surah an-Nur states said:
And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings (khimars) over their bosoms (jaybs), and not display their ornaments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments.
To be honest I don't, and don't think you should legislate against, people wearing anything they want. BUT, it is not an option for a lot of women who wear it. Without wanting to sound prejudice I think less of any person wearing one, or at least the person forcing them to wear it.

To me it does not stand as a symbol of religion, it stands as a symbol of oppression.

Worth drawing out this bit: or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. Oh there's a surprise, shame of sex. You mean the thing that a vast majority of the population will engage in, enjoy and seek out; and is necessary to humanity.
 

Sparrowsabre7

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Abedeus said:
Dele said:
Besides it is also part of Christianity and Judaism to kill people and do deeds that are illegal by modern standards, so why should one religion be prefered over another?
Wait, what? WHAT? I think there is somewhere in the Old Testament, to which both Christians and Jews listen (hehe) about loving your neighbour (other people) and that murder is a horrible sin. Guess why Adam cursed and then renounced Cain for killing his brother?

By the same token I should be permitted to wear a motorcycle helmet into a david jones - but I bet nobody will let me.
Is this a religion? I don't think there is something in any holy book about wearing motorycycle helmets. Anywhere.
It's the New Testament, I'm pretty sure, Jesus said it "Love they neighbour" I mean.
 

cobra_ky

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have a female employee verify their identity in private. isn't that how they handle driver's licenses?

EDIT: i meant private, not public. go with them into a bathroom or dressing room, have a female employee take a look at their face, let them put the veil back on and everyone goes their merry way.
 

WeedWorm

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Wow, the shitstorm from this ought to be interesting. Theyll be cries of discrimination and intolerence from Muslims all over the place. Its a pity they dont get the irony of them calling people intolerent.