Should muslim women remove their veil in stores?

[Graustein]

No they must not. Why? Because a veil does not insult anyone, it does no harm nor is it racist. If a women wants to wear a veil, and I do press that if SHE HERSELF wants to wear it who are you to criticize them. Have you ever walked past a veiled woman and found yourself inexplicably being insulted and offended by a veil?

What about Punkers and Goths and the like who wear steel spikes, I am thinking they are a bigger security risk than a veil, yet they are still allowed to enter without removing clearly dangerous objects from their vestments. I propose we shut up about tradition and everything and remember that Human rights allow us to dress in our underwear or even in a full medieval suit of armour to go shopping if we feel like. Either everything is right or we should issue government required grey suits so that every1 wears the same crappy clothes and we can't ***** about it.

It's because if you wear an all-concealing headscarf, you can't be identified if you do steal something. THAT is the issue at hand. It's the same reason why some stores don't let people wear hoodies with the hoods up, or motorcycle helmets. The fact that it's an Islamic tradition is coincidental to the fact that the cashier can't see their faces and identify them should that person steal. "Someone wearing a headscarf" would be pretty much all the identification they'd be able to give.
I'm in favour of individual stores being able to ban it, as long as they are consistant both in what they proscribe and in their enforcement of said proscriptions.
I'm equally in favour of a Muslim woman refusing to remove it. In that case, she can shop somewhere else. Religion is not an excuse to violate store policy. The policy itself is not targeting Muslims, it's targeting people who conceal their faces, thus presenting a security hazard.

 

[1337mokro]

Yes and how fast can you move in traditional Muslim clothing? I have worn traditional clothing once and let me say it's not exactly the quick getaway gown that is ideal for quick store robberies. The fact that there are policies will always collide with store preferences.
Besides i am not even talking about Muslims i am talking about women wearing a veil. People should wear what they want and when they want.

For example a local store runs a policy of not admitting more teens than the number of baskets they set up infront of the doors. Because a large number of them steals. Yet there is also a second door for the 'rich' aka white school. These people may enter if they show their schoolpas while we the low life scandalmongering plebs have to wait outside in minus 2 with perfectly good money clutched between our frozen knuckles. This is a show case examples of store policies. Whilst headscarfs will be banned nuns who also wear headdresses will still be allowed to enter when the most you can say to identify them is she looked like a Nun.

 

[Graustein]

Yes and how fast can you move in traditional Muslim clothing? I have worn traditional clothing once and let me say it's not exactly the quick getaway gown that is ideal for quick store robberies. The fact that there are policies will always collide with store preferences.
Besides i am not even talking about Muslims i am talking about women wearing a veil. People should wear what they want and when they want.

For example a local store runs a policy of not admitting more teens than the number of baskets they set up infront of the doors. Because a large number of them steals. Yet there is also a second door for the 'rich' aka white school. These people may enter if they show their schoolpas while we the low life scandalmongering plebs have to wait outside in minus 2 with perfectly good money clutched between our frozen knuckles. This is a show case examples of store policies. Whilst headscarfs will be banned nuns who also wear headdresses will still be allowed to enter when the most you can say to identify them is she looked like a Nun.

It's not a matter of full traditional Muslim clothing. Many Muslim women will only wear the headscarf - it still makes her harder to identify.
And no, people should not be allowed to wear what they want when they want. If I ever run a store, I will not allow a naked person in, neither will I allow anybody to come in without their face being clearly visible. It's a security measure.

Your local store's policy is discriminatory. Saying that nobody who has their face covered is allowed in is no more discriminatory than banning smoking on store premises. It is not targeted at Muslim women, it is targeted at those who conceal their faces.
As for the nun comment, that depends on how strict they are. If they ban Hijabs (which apparently don't conceal the face), then they would also prevent a nun from entering wearing her headscarf. If they allow a nun whose face is not concealed, they would allow Hijabs. If they do not do this, they would be, as the internets say, doin it rong.

 

[Canebrake]

Two things are worth considering:

1) Anglophone hijab wearers tend predominantly to be recently-migrated middle-class Muslim women. (Maintaining the 'traditional' lifestyle is actually fairly expensive and time-consuming, especially in the West, which pretty strongly discourages anything more elaborate than simple headscarves.) In general, immigrants' proclivity to crime closely follows economic standing - the more stable you are coming into a country, the less likely you are to wind up in a situation where high-visibility crime (e.g. theft/robbery as opposed to drugs and etc) is necessary or possible. In summary, the hijab is not particularly likely to be any kind of pressing security risk vis a vis any other item of clothing - there will occasionally be crimes committed by employing its concealment, but the same can be said about almost everything people see fit to wear.

2) Further, the veil itself - when you factor out the more specific and sectarian idea of hijab - is much less ideological and much more personal than most Westerners are aware of. While there are in fact specific theological reasons and justifications given for the wearing of elaborate coverture by women, the wearing of veils by Middle Eastern women is as consistent and unwavering as the wearing of trousers by Germanic men. (Both are well-attested in classical sources.) Because there is never a broad, bold line between culture and religion in practice, the upshot in this case is that coverture of the scalp and brow is not so much taken seriously as taken for granted by Middle Eastern women, especially those from more provincial or religious backgrounds. The removal of the veil is an intimate matter; it plays a role in both exhibitionism and assault, and whatever the ultimate intentions, mandating that middle eastern women remove their headwear before entering a store is roughly as tasteful and would be received more or less identically to asking anyone wearing a skirt to invert and tape it up before entering a store.

That was a lot of fluff. face...genitalia...not seeing the connection. Your first paragraph: That's the exact reason why it's not allowed, because it is a security risk. Same reason you can't carry toy guns, wear ski masks, carry in duffel bags, etc. As for the second paragraph, like I said, if you don't like the store having that type of requirement then don't shop there. Instead, spend your money in other places that you support.

EDIT: Crap, i took it seriously =(. Means time for bed.

I beg your pardon! i can carry toy guns around. In fact i can carry real guns around.

I also find it amusing how they picked out helmets, hijabs, and hoodies, instead of Anything that covers the face. Also,how they didn't single out baklavas.


Though i think the easiest store policy is request that they remove it.
If they refuse to take it off/whatever after entering the store,just require their fingerprint and a bio-matrix scan.
If they don't steal anything,Yay! they don't get troubled more than some 30 seconds. and if they do steal,Give the fingerprints to the police.

And since the majority of thieves are multiple offense criminals,Their fingerprints will come up later when they are caught for later offenses and they will serve time for the crime all the same.
At least the police get a set of fingerprints and the bio-matrix scan.

Simple,easy and fairly low levels of harassment involved.

~Intranet selushunz,from canebreaker.

 

[konkwastaken]

to be perfectly honest i don't see a problem, reason being if a young attractive female went over to a Muslim country for whatever reason i am sure the people of that country would have some complaints about her clothing be it as normal as shorts, expecting to be able to come over to America or Australia or where ever and being able to dress as they do without anyone complaining just seems hypocritical to me.

 

[orifice]

I'd like to ask, have there been any instances of criminal activity performed by women in full hijab?

Yes, suicide bombings!
But back to the point yes they should remove the veil, and if they don't like it they can choose to live in a country where the hijab is thought to be appropriate.

 

[ParkourMcGhee]

A standard should be agreed upon. Either they should have to remove veils or people should be allowed to wear balaclavas. Otherwise it's religious discrimination against anybody who is not a muslim.

 

[orifice]

No. It's their religion. Deal with it.

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
The koran says that a woman should dress modestly, that's all, it does not mention covering the face. The hijab is a cultural item of clothing NOT a religious one.

 

[orifice]

Well who's up for a hijab heist, lets knock over some banks dressed as muslim women.

ME! I'm there dude!

 

[Gitsnik]

I also find it amusing how they picked out helmets, hijabs, and hoodies, instead of Anything that covers the face. Also,how they didn't single out baklavas.

Motorcycle helmets....

 

[cainx10a]

Of course they should remove them. I remember a few years ago some lady wanted to have her drivers licence taken with that thing on. Simple answer is when in rome. You are not in habibland anymore. Your religious bullshit does not override the customs or laws of the land you are currently in. If you dont like it then feel free to go back to whatever patch of desert you came from.

You sir, are a bigot. Mainly by this very colorful line here.

on-topic: No, they don't need to. Bulkas are completely unnecessary, but Hijabs, are pretty similar to the skullcaps Jews wear or Turbans worn by Sikhs.

What people need to understand, if we keep alienating these people, how exactly are they going to adapt to YOUR rules?

Congratulations. You see, every now and then I like to throw a single offensive line into my posts just to see how many idiots totally ignore the bulk of my points and just whine and label me. So you won! You are that idiot.

How is it racist to believe that since they are in my country the same country as me that you should have to obey the same laws as me. I have to remove my helmet whenever I go into a bank. I cannot just claim that the Flying Spaghetti Monster forbade it and so do whatever the hell I please. End story is if you are in my country the same country as me you follow the same laws I have to or you can piss off back to whereever you came from. Be it desert, mud pit, jungle hell hole or any other dusty/dirty/disease infested place.

Then again, you pretty much ignored the arguments I used as well. Not only are you a bigot, but an idiot too.

 

[SnowCold]

They can take it off for a moment in the secrurity, put it back, and take it off again when leaving.

 

[guardian001]

Guess you know alot more about the laws against muslim women than Actual muslim women, cause everyone i've spoken to so far have said it to be a law enforced by their men, but i guess you know much better then those who have actually lived in countries where it was against the law.

1) concerning the part I have bolded in your message:
"by their men"
as in not by religion, but by their husband's decision. That means it's specific to the
person, not to the religion

"lived in countries where it is against the law."
Saudi Arabian/Iranian laws have no hold over Australia. I said in my post certain
countries require it. Australia does not.

2) http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Islam/2004/05/Girls-Just-Want-To-Have-Fun.aspx
http://muslimvoices.org/hijab/

Muslims are required to dress modestly, and this does not necessarily mean a Hijab. certain husbands require their wives to wear hijabs, but as far as religious requirement, it is considered by many Muslims to be optional. it all comes down to the individuals definition of modesty.

and as I said, concerning whether or not they should be allowed to wear it, head scarves pose no threat, however it isn't unreasonable for the women to be required to remove the veil.

 

[Danny Ocean]

I find bherkas (is that how its spelt?) an infringement on human liberties, and certainly one of the most sexist things around today. Women are forced by law to wear them in most ME countries (Iran, Saudia Arabia etc), and as more egalitarianist western countries, we should condemn their use.

Here in the UK, girls are are forced by law to wear skirts no matter how cold it is outside and no matter how creepy their teachers are.

But there is a difference isn't there, this is jolly ole' England, and thus above reproach. Johnny Foreigner can take his customs and culture and F*** off.

*rolls eyes*

Not law, schoolgirls aren't forced by most schools, as a a large number don't have a dress code. Those that do have to wear skirts by contract with the school are perfectly entitled to wear whatever they like on their legs to keep them nice and toasty. I think it's why leggings are so popular here.

As for people outside of school, it's just giving into perceived social pressures that makes them wear skirts, or they want to appear to be wanting, so to speak.

 

[mattttherman3]

Well, a man could wear that and walk into a store and take stuff too you know. It doesn't have to be a part of their religion.

 

[DarkLordofDevon]

Definitely. Why should Muslims be a special case? We all have to live by the law, and it doesn't matter what religion or beliefs you have. The law is the law.

 

[Padfoot13]

it would seem less unreasonable if the emphasis was on hoodies and things of that matter (and mind you im not blamming the media for this, i like the media when its pointing out BS) but the fault of the man proposing it.

 

[Sewblon]

I don't see how it is ethical to legally require Muslim women to forgo their traditional garb.

It's illegal to wear a veil in Turkey and that's an Islamic country. They hardly enforce the law but still.


This debate has been running for centuries. We gamers will solve this one, yes we will...

Ahem.

The Turkish doing it makes it even less ethical.

 

[bad rider]

No, everyone these days are terorists or trying to rob you. There will always be a way to hide your appearence so don't bother with any restrictions.