Should there be gun control in the United States

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Zykon TheLich

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DoctorNick said:
Well, that's according to Wikipedia.

Which, granted, is generally kind of useless but they usually get things like this straight.

The US murder rate number is agreed upon by the FBI though:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html

I'm still looking for a UK number, but I'm willing to trust the Wikipedia number as being more or less correct.
Wikipedia and the source you give both give murder rates in murders per 100,000 of the overall population. The way you worded it the murder rate is murders per 100,000 deaths.

Try:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/crimeew0708.html

or

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/soti.html

for British crime figures. 1st links to the chapters of a full on govt report with attendent documantation, analysis, figures and methodological bullshit, second is tabulated figures, not as thorough but easy to navigate.
 

DoctorNick

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scumofsociety said:
DoctorNick said:
Well, that's according to Wikipedia.

Which, granted, is generally kind of useless but they usually get things like this straight.

The US murder rate number is agreed upon by the FBI though:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html

I'm still looking for a UK number, but I'm willing to trust the Wikipedia number as being more or less correct.
Wikipedia and the source you give both give murder rates in murders per 100,000 of the overall population. The way you worded it the murder rate is murders per 100,000 deaths.

Try:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/crimeew0708.html

or

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/soti.html

for British crime figures. 1st is pdf format with attendent documantation analysis and attendent methodological bullshit, second is tabulated figures, not as thorough but easy to navigate.
Ah, population and not deaths. My mistake.

Either way though...
 

Scolar Visari

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I love that the first weapon anti-gunners mention is the AK-47. Now as I understood it we, meaning the U.S don't allow Russia to sell it's firearms here. It's very hard to find a real AK-47 as most are just different copies by other countries, most often the AKs you see in the news are WASRs or something like that. Aside from all of that the AK-47 is severely outdated and has been rightfully replaced by newer models firing better rounds.
 

Zykon TheLich

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DoctorNick said:
Ah, population and not deaths. My mistake.

Either way though...
Yes, your confusion over units of measurement was the only point I was addressing.
 

Therumancer

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Simply put I see the right to bear arms being one of the cornerstones of America. The idea is that we are not entirely at the mercy of our goverment as long as we have the abillity to arm ourselves. The police and such can deal with armed individuals or even a group of armed individuals, but not a general uprising. This means that the goverment has to toe a finer line than those in the rest of the world.

Now some people might say "But Therumancer, if the goverment was to actually try and oppress the people, how would having personal arms make a differance if they sent in the military or national guard". The answer to this is simply that we ALSO maintain a military of volunteers, that in theory any citizen can join, as opposed to a "caste" type military system which effectively seperates itself from the general populance. If The President/Congress was to tell the military to start oppressing the people, it isn't likely to work.

This is one of the reasons why I am against some of the increasingly strict requirements for the military (it can be far more selective than it used to be), and also in favor of gun control.

Gun control does not ensure our freedom entirely in of itself, but it helps a whole lot. Even if the goverment had control of the military and turned it on the people during a popular uprising, by the time the smoke cleared there wouldn't be much of America left for them to rule (they wouldn't get what they want out of it).

The occasional shootings, dead cops, psycho-shooter kids, and similar things are part of the price we pay, and in the scheme of things it's a small one.

It should be also noted that the guys who are most in favor of gun control are also the ones who are in favor of a powerful federal goverment with the right to increasingly stick it's nose up your business. There is a reason for this that goes beyond the specific issues in the media. Democrats do not like the idea that a small town could basically tell them to go pound sand in an extreme situation and be a real pain in the rear with firearms. Of course this isn't a big deal by the Republican view of things where the central power is supposed to be state and local anyway with the federal goverment being pretty weak overall.


-

When it comes to other nations like Canada and even the UK consider that the grass is always greener on the other side of the pasture. We look at some of the problems in the US and think it MUST be better, but those countries have their own problems (albeit ones that aren't broadcast globally through things like CNN anywhere near as often). Those nations also have SUBSTANTIALLY less freedom than the US even if they do not admit it.

For example when I was doing my Criminal Justice studies we were talking about alternative legal systems. One point that was made that in Canada the police have what amounts to a "blank warrent" they can use to effectively suspend someone's rights and do whatever they want to, albeit with the need to justify it later. I don't remember the exact terminology, and this is a very basic description, but that is the general idea.

Now I'll be the first to tell you that we put too many limitations on the police in the US which is responsible for a lot of our problems, but something like that really wouldn't fly.

In nations like France, they don't really have freedom of the press. Back when we first invaded Iraq we had France telling us they didn't want to back us because they were "peace loving". In reality we found out that they were making a ton of money by secretly violating the embargos on Iraq through the "Oil For Food" program. What's more one of France's first concerns was to ensure that the debt incurred to them by Iraq would be continued to be acknowledged by any new goverment after the replacement of Saddam. Needless to say when this was actually going down what the French papers/news sources said, and what a true free press said, were very differant. This kind of thing is one of the reasons why France is on something of a differant wavelength from the US.

-

Also keep in mind that being armed is one of the reasons why I would be willing to let like CIA counter espionage forces/Homeland security have such a free hand. If they ever decided to abuse their power on any kind of a large scale, they just don't have the manpower to deal with an angry populance even if the goverment supported them. You will never see sizable numbers of people being "disappeared" in the US for this reason.

What's more it also keeps things fairly honest on some levels, because if someone messes with you too badly, you always have the option to go down shooting. This is why things like home foreclosures go through such a lengthy process. Nobody is going to go and throw a bunch of people onto the street lightly when those people could very well hole themselves up in the property and start shooting (things like that have happened before).

If anything, I actually feel we need more shootings to sort of set society straight. For example if more justified, disgruntled employees were to shoot their former employers you might see some of the more ridiculous profit based layoffs stopping. Although in the end this rarely happens because most people figure they can find something else and don't want to be killed or thrown in jail to make a symbolic point which probably won't be portrayed properly in the media anyway (ie "another psycho").

Well enough rambling, but basically I'm extremely pro-gun for a lot of reasons. I'm warped enough where on a certain level I kind of hope some liberal does try and ban guns all at once. When the smoke clears and the bodies are dragged away I think a lot of problems will have been solved, Wal*Mart will have a gun counter, and there will be a national holiday in which reloads are %50 off. :)

... hey I think it was funny (or at least darkly amusing)

>>>----Therumancer--->
 
Apr 28, 2008
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Gun control is differant througout the states, in some places its illegal to have a gun outside your house/apartment, and you can only use the gun for self defence.

In other places you can carry a gun around but it must be concealed.

And in others is legal to carry it exposed, but it has to be holstered and the safety needs to be on.

Its all really strange and while I can respect the right to defend ones self and ones family, there needs to be tighter control.
It seems that the people more opposed to gun control are people from the Southern U.S.
unoficially known as rednecks



And besides, gun control is like DRM in games, someone will ALWAYS find a way around it, no matter what
 

AfricanSwallow

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Gun control certainly need not be the banning of all guns.


Handguns and assault rifles should be outright banned. End of story.

There is absolutely no need for a handgun, or a weapon that is capable of full automatic fire.

Nor would these restrictions infringe on the "right to bear arms"... and I'm always amazed at how the right to organize and maintain militia's is for some reason interpreted as the right to carry concealed weapons by Americans.
 

MelziGurl

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I think gun control is something to be considered strongly, when you have innocent school kids being gunned down by crazy peers. It may not stop crime on a whole, but it could very well reduce these kinds of situations. But, I don't live in America so it's not my business what you do, just thought I'd share my opinion.
 

Yog Sothoth

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Last time I checked, there already is gun control in the U.S. I assume that the OP meant more gun control...?
 

McNinja

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There has been multiple threads on this.

To quote Yahtzee:
"Short answer: No. Long Answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."

And to quote myself:
"Ah but banning guns would also be restricting freedom by not allowing one to buy what they want.

BTW: the term "Black Market" is used loosely to define any organization or person that sells illegal things.

A firearms ban will NOT, and I repeat NOT be a good thing. You see kids, there is thing little thing called "The Back Market," and what this does is sells illegal things to people who want them. Yes, just like drug dealers do! In fact, you don't even need numbers to see what the banning of all alchohal did during the prohibition, and how many problems that caused, so what kind of problems would banning guns cause? Well, all sorts of gun clubs, gun camps (like the Whittington gun club/ Adventure camp thing in NM) would shut down, gun store owners would lose their stores, and their money, gun prices would triple their prices on the black market, and gun crime would spike into the heavens. Why would gun crime spike, you ask? well that black market sells things illegally, and who would buy illegal things? Not law-abiding citizens, believe you me. So who's left? People who don't obey the law. There is a saying I heard a long time ago, and it goes something like this "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." Outlaws (people who don't care about breaking the law), won't care if their guns are illegal, they will buy them anyways, and use them in their gang wars, mafia power struggles, and what have you. Banning guns will not decrease gun violence, it will only make it so that the people who COULD defend themselves if they had guns CANNOT defend themselves against people with guns, or even knives.

You see, what people fail to realize is that just because something is "banned" doesn't mean that nobody has it. For tose who still cannot grasp this concept, think of it like this: A videogame comes out, and it contains a lot of controversial material (not GTA4, this isn't something that actually happened). But everyone loves it. People go crazy for it. But parents whine, complain, and don't do their job, and the game get relabeled with an AO rating and pulled off the shelves (here in the US nobody carries AO rated games anymore). So what happens? People start selling them on ebay for double, triple the price. People put up torrents for download. People still get the game, even though it is not available in stores.

Hopefully nobody got mad at the sarcasm in the first paragraph. I get like that.

There is always a way to get what you want: you just need money, and the knowledge of where to find it.

EDIT: Above- because guns are more talked about in the news. If more news station talked about how many times gun were used to PROTECT instead of DESTROY then people would view guns differently."
 

Axman

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Mar 19, 2009
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Gun control? Seriously?

NO!

How on earth would we then arm ourselves for the coming revolution???
 

ygetoff

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sneakypenguin said:
No, why take away legal firearms and the ability for law abiding citizens to own keep and bear them? Most(i dare say almost all guns used in crimes) are obtained illegally.
Those of you who think controlling guns will stop gun crimes, I point you to prohibition. Banning or overly controlling something only creates a black market.
What about all the accidents caused by guns?
But other than that, you make a good point. Banning something will not prevent it's use.
 

Oldmanwillow

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NO ANY FORM OF GUN CONTROL IS UNCONSTITUNAL.

If you outlaw gun all it will accomplish is keeping guns out of law abiding citizens hand. CRIMINALS will still get guns through the black market. In alaska since THE PEOPLE voted to make legal to carry a coincided weapon without a permit violent crime has went down and it saved lives. On this very simple principle if everyone armed people are less likely to start shit. Its called a deterrent and its the only reason why we didn't kill everyone during the cold war. Deterrent are extremely efficient and should be used more.
 

McNinja

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ygetoff said:
sneakypenguin said:
No, why take away legal firearms and the ability for law abiding citizens to own keep and bear them? Most(i dare say almost all guns used in crimes) are obtained illegally.
Those of you who think controlling guns will stop gun crimes, I point you to prohibition. Banning or overly controlling something only creates a black market.
What about all the accidents caused by guns?
But other than that, you make a good point. Banning something will not prevent it's use.
Easy, educate people. I mean, schools spend millions of dollar to get inane boring groups to present at assemblies at school, why not educate kids about how to use guns correctly? Or encourage gun safety education in the house? My dad taught me about guns since I was 10.

Or, if education isn't your thing; LOCK THE GUNS UP AND/OR DON'T LET YOUR KID KNOW WHERE THEY ARE. Yes, I am yelling that, because the thing is shooting happen because parents have guns and one or more of the following occurs: a) an easily accessible location, like an unlocked drawer in the bedroom, b) they kid knows where the gun is. Usually both. Is it that simple to not tell your kid where it is?

I got it; gun safety AND not telling your kid where the gun are, and locking the other guns up.
 

Uncompetative

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I propose a compromise.

Support the Amendment - the right to bear arms, militia, whatever, but have the Government supply them!

This way you would only be entitled to hold a Springfield rifle (or somesuch long barreled non-automatic weapon) under Government license. It would be for the protection of the country from foreign invaders, rather than for self-defense/home-defense.

No one, but Cops/Secret Service/ATF/Air Marshalls etc. would be allowed to own pistols/Uzis as they would be small enough to be concealed.

This way the NRA couldn't complain on principle that they were losing a Constitutional right. You would then have an amnesty to get all the guns in. If people chose to illegally hold on to them and use them in self-defense (justifiable paranoia) they would still have to face short jail terms or hefty fines for illegal possession, after which all their weapons would be confiscated.

I do not believe that the Founding Fathers anticipated machine guns being in the hands of ordinary citizens, how could they...

...not even the Police use these (too much collateral damage from assualt weapons).
 

ygetoff

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Thanatos34 said:
Bullet control will do nothing but keep those who legally own guns from getting bullets.

Criminals will still get ahold of bullets/guns no matter what laws are passed against them.
However, it would also prevent people who are messed up in the head from getting them. One of the reasons school shootings (or shootings not related to robberies) happen is that people who clearly shouldn't have guns get guns, often through perfectly legal channels. Stricter controls may not prevent violent criminals from getting guns, but it can help to prevent things like school shootings.
 

SqueeFactor

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Gun control is for the masses of people brainwashed by CNN who think that everyone with a firearm is going to go out into public and shoot up a school, or that they're insanely right wing nut jobs. I could make the joke 'gun control is having both hands on the gun, hahahahaha' BUT I am not a backwoods redneck that has the depth and intelligence of a petri dish. My belief is that if you have a firearm, you should

-have a clean criminal record
-own property
-have a background check
-have a weapons permit.

and if you ever screw up, permit revoked. easy as that. see, the problem is that we're selling guns to any old criminal/drunk/gang member/etc. out there with sub-par checks, IF ANY. people just walk in to a pawn shop with money and walk out packin a heater. THATS the problem. and for the kids getting a hold of these, notice that they're never from middle/upper class families. they're from 'families' with little to no income and the parent spending most of the time doing 'something else' and not teaching gun responsibility to their kid.

end rant.
 

ygetoff

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Oct 22, 2008
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McNinja said:
ygetoff said:
sneakypenguin said:
No, why take away legal firearms and the ability for law abiding citizens to own keep and bear them? Most(i dare say almost all guns used in crimes) are obtained illegally.
Those of you who think controlling guns will stop gun crimes, I point you to prohibition. Banning or overly controlling something only creates a black market.
What about all the accidents caused by guns?
But other than that, you make a good point. Banning something will not prevent it's use.
Easy, educate people. I mean, schools spend millions of dollar to get inane boring groups to present at assemblies at school, why not educate kids about how to use guns correctly? Or encourage gun safety education in the house? My dad taught me about guns since I was 10.

Or, if education isn't your thing; LOCK THE GUNS UP AND/OR DON'T LET YOUR KID KNOW WHERE THEY ARE. Yes, I am yelling that, because the thing is shooting happen because parents have guns and one or more of the following occurs: a) an easily accessible location, like an unlocked drawer in the bedroom, b) they kid knows where the gun is. Usually both. Is it that simple to not tell your kid where it is?

I got it; gun safety AND not telling your kid where the gun are, and locking the other guns up.
That's a good idea, but there should also be stricter controls on how to get guns legally. That way people with an understanding of proper gun safety (who are not mentally ill) can still get their firearms, but people who would use it improperly (I don't mean illegally, but without safety in mind, or are mentally ill).

Uncompetative said:
I propose a compromise.

Support the Amendment - the right to bear arms, militia, whatever, but have the Government supply them!

This way you would only be entitled to hold a Springfield rifle (or somesuch long barreled non-automatic weapon) under Government license. It would be for the protection of the country from foreign invaders, rather than for self-defense/home-defense.

No one, but Cops/Secret Service/ATF/Air Marshalls etc. would be allowed to own pistols/Uzis as they would be small enough to be concealed.

This way the NRA couldn't complain on principle that they were losing a Constitutional right. You would then have an amnesty to get all the guns in. If people chose to illegally hold on to them and use them in self-defense (justifiable paranoia) they would still have to face short jail terms or hefty fines for illegal possession, after which all their weapons would be confiscated.

I do not believe that the Founding Fathers anticipated machine guns being in the hands of ordinary citizens, how could they...

...not even the Police use these (too much collateral damage from assualt weapons).
This is also a good idea. The only downside is that it would be extremely hard to keep going.
 

McNinja

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ygetoff said:
McNinja said:
ygetoff said:
sneakypenguin said:
No, why take away legal firearms and the ability for law abiding citizens to own keep and bear them? Most(i dare say almost all guns used in crimes) are obtained illegally.
Those of you who think controlling guns will stop gun crimes, I point you to prohibition. Banning or overly controlling something only creates a black market.
What about all the accidents caused by guns?
But other than that, you make a good point. Banning something will not prevent it's use.
Easy, educate people. I mean, schools spend millions of dollar to get inane boring groups to present at assemblies at school, why not educate kids about how to use guns correctly? Or encourage gun safety education in the house? My dad taught me about guns since I was 10.

Or, if education isn't your thing; LOCK THE GUNS UP AND/OR DON'T LET YOUR KID KNOW WHERE THEY ARE. Yes, I am yelling that, because the thing is shooting happen because parents have guns and one or more of the following occurs: a) an easily accessible location, like an unlocked drawer in the bedroom, b) they kid knows where the gun is. Usually both. Is it that simple to not tell your kid where it is?

I got it; gun safety AND not telling your kid where the gun are, and locking the other guns up.
That's a good idea, but there should also be stricter controls on how to get guns legally. That way people with an understanding of proper gun safety (who are not mentally ill) can still get their firearms, but people who would use it improperly (I don't mean illegally, but without safety in mind, or are mentally ill).

Uncompetative said:
I propose a compromise.

Support the Amendment - the right to bear arms, militia, whatever, but have the Government supply them!

This way you would only be entitled to hold a Springfield rifle (or somesuch long barreled non-automatic weapon) under Government license. It would be for the protection of the country from foreign invaders, rather than for self-defense/home-defense.

No one, but Cops/Secret Service/ATF/Air Marshalls etc. would be allowed to own pistols/Uzis as they would be small enough to be concealed.

This way the NRA couldn't complain on principle that they were losing a Constitutional right. You would then have an amnesty to get all the guns in. If people chose to illegally hold on to them and use them in self-defense (justifiable paranoia) they would still have to face short jail terms or hefty fines for illegal possession, after which all their weapons would be confiscated.

I do not believe that the Founding Fathers anticipated machine guns being in the hands of ordinary citizens, how could they...

...not even the Police use these (too much collateral damage from assualt weapons).
This is also a good idea. The only downside is that it would be extremely hard to keep going.

the police will use them if the assaulters escalate it enough. If they are firing at the cops with an Ak-47, bring on the M-16 and let'em have it. At least that's how i would do it...

SqueeFactor said:
Gun control is for the masses of people brainwashed by CNN who think that everyone with a firearm is going to go out into public and shoot up a school, or that they're insanely right wing nut jobs. I could make the joke 'gun control is having both hands on the gun, hahahahaha' BUT I am not a backwoods redneck that has the depth and intelligence of a petri dish. My belief is that if you have a firearm, you should

-have a clean criminal record
-own property
-have a background check
-have a weapons permit.

and if you ever screw up, permit revoked. easy as that. see, the problem is that we're selling guns to any old criminal/drunk/gang member/etc. out there with sub-par checks, IF ANY. people just walk in to a pawn shop with money and walk out packin a heater. THATS the problem. and for the kids getting a hold of these, notice that they're never from middle/upper class families. they're from 'families' with little to no income and the parent spending most of the time doing 'something else' and not teaching gun responsibility to their kid.

end rant.
Sorry I quoted so much... anyway the permits should require a gun test on safety and how to use it properly. Along with the above, it would be much safer than letting any old shmuck get a gun.

I am staunchly against gun control but will readily admit that too many mentally ill and criminals are able to get guns legally. Illegally is a whole other issue.