Skyrim: Dark Brotherhood thoughts

[Gotham Soul]

I have the same problem with the Dark Brotherhood that I did with the Thieves Guild in Skyrim in that neither of those two guilds really felt like you were doing...guild things.

With the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion, the missions were really well done. You had to generally infiltrate a secure location, dodge guards, make the hit fast and clean and book it. There was some measure of planning that was involved, or even if you didn't plan and just ran through it, there was at least room for planning. Not only that, but a few of the quests had options, like choosing to drop the bull's head on that guy in Bruma. The Skingrad manor mission is probably the best Elder Scrolls quest I've done in a while; playing the guests against each other, slowly isolating them one by one and then making the kill. Best.

Also, the Thieves Guild in Oblivion felt more...thief-like too. For later missions you generally had to do the same thing as the DB: you could take the time to plan, dodge guards, get in and out, and sometimes you'd run into unexpected countermeasures like the Dark Welkynd Stones, and you'd have to weave out of line of sight to dodge them to grab your objective and then get the hell out.

The contracts in the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim were underwhelming at best. They were very boring and laughably easy. The missions aren't much better either: a great deal of them are so hard-scripted that it's very hard to get wrong. The only one I found even remotely difficult was trying to assassinate the son of that Imperial Guard, mostly because it took four freaking bow shots in the head to down him. (Wanted the bonus, so tried to kill him in the city in broad daylight, meaning no melee attacks).

Although, to be fair, while the last mission was also incredibly underwhelming, the satisfaction from killing Mr. Important was pretty good, although that old bastard just had to ruin it by expecting you. Be surprised, dammit, the Dark Brotherhood is here for your ass!

Thieves Guild is on the same line for me. The entire second half of the faction quests turned into religious wank. I just feel like the Thieves Guild went in the wrong direction after a certain point, and while the armor you get is cool, it doesn't feel like the Thieves Guild. It just feels like a very long and extended Daedric quest.

 

[Carrots_macduff]

the Uderfrykte made it all worthwhile....

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

This is all total speculation, you understand.

Which I enjoy! I do have something of a pet theory, in that what happened to the Brotherhood was similar to the plight of the Thieves. Due to their behaviour (abandoning the Tenets, moving away from the traditional heriachy, etc etc) their patron deities (Sithis and the Night Mother, though I'm still not 100% on either of their official classifications) withdrew favour the same way Nocturnal did after the theft of the Skeleton Key. Without the subtle influence of their patron, the Dark Brotherhood dwindled in the same way the Thieves Guild did, eventually to the point where practically nothing remained.

This could all turn around thanks to the Dovahkiin, or it could not. Be interesting to find out!

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I've totally over-thought this whole business, haven't I. /chagrin

That's a pretty solid theory you have there. I think that on reflection we should probably run with your take on matters, not least of all because it explains the unexpected abandoning of the Tenets.

As far as Sithis and the Night Mother go, Sithis was the Void before the Universe was created, and represents Entropy. The Night Mother has changed over time, sometimes being a spirit, sometimes a real person. I think that most likely the title 'Night Mother' is applied to certain favoured priestesses of Sithis, in much the same way as Nocturnal has her Nightingales. And, like Nightingales, they serve in both life and death. But this is pure theory, even the lore goes to great lengths to shroud the Night Mother in uncertainty.

 

[Frost27]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

A "good" person might be interested in helping out the emotionally disturbed orphan seeking revenge on his tormentor. Whether that extends to murder (for the greater good - remember how the orphans celebrated when you killed her?) depends on your own morality and definition of a "good" person, I suppose.

I think what the first poster meant was there's no way to find out any more details, or take a third option; you talk to the boy, you get the quest, and that's it. You can't try to help in another fashion, you can't try to talk to Grelod the Kind about her behaviour or have her replaced by someone better, it's kill her or nothing. A good character would want to improve the situation, but maybe not want to become a murderous assassin, but you don't really get the option.

I thought of it from the perspective of the operative from Serenity. While I kill to make a better world for everyone, I have no illusions that I am a monster and will have no place in that world. Then I fed Grelod the Kind an Ebony Waraxe souffle and the children rejoiced.

 

[Lionsfan]

That "nothing happens after" effect is a problem that's plagued the Elder Scrolls games for a long time now. It doesn't seem right that bandits--and for that matter, townsfolk if you commit a crime--jump straight into battle with you even though you're the Arena grand champion and the leader of the Fighter's Guild, or that no effects are felt if you murder Bravil's count.

In a particularly egregious (take a shot!) example of this, I killed my first dragon and became Thane of Whiterun before joining the Companions. As such, the first mission was painful - "You look like a weakling! Here, new blood, take my sword to be sharpened! Perhaps you'll survive a week if you're lucky. Now go do more errands! Kill a bandit, if you think you're tough enough!" and so on.

I was practically screaming at the screen; "I'm your fucking Thane, you arrogant ill-informed prick! I just killed a dragon right outside the city. A fucking giant dragon and you're talking to me like I'm some sort of mentally handicapped horse! What've you done lately, you smug ****? Eh? That's right! I killed a fucking dragon, worship me as your god, peasant!"

I totally agree, that really breaks the immersion of the games. More examples, when I talk to people wearing either Dark Brotherhood or Thieves Guild armor and people treat me normal....I'M A FREAKING ASSASSIN/THIEF AND YOU'RE REACTION IS "HOW ABOUT THIS WEATHER!!!"

I would love to see your characters rep/peoples reaction take a hit depending on what factions you join. But that being said, if I'm a sneaky assassin then half the bloody continent shouldn't know that I'm in the Dark Brotherhood. It's definitely a very slippery slope and difficult for them

However something easy for them to fix is the punishment system. If I kill someone for the DB I shouldn't be allowed to walk away after serving a short term in jail. I think that certain characters should trigger a "Death Penalty Only" script from the guards.

Spoiler: For Instance

When I was killing the Emperor's Cousin (and by extension the Guard Captain) I was caught both times by the guards (both me being lazy and not hiding properly), but I think guards wouldn't just let the perp go free after spending a week in jail/paying 1000 gold. I mean this is a relative of the Emperor and the Guard Captain after all

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

wow, wake up in the morning to 2000 more views and a very interesting and lengthy discusiion

I actaully love this community!

 

[Mariakko]

I found there weren't many creative ways of killing the targets. No dropping moose heads on elves. D=

 

[SonicWaffle]

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I've totally over-thought this whole business, haven't I. /chagrin

It's an internet gaming forum; that's how we roll ;-)

That's a pretty solid theory you have there. I think that on reflection we should probably run with your take on matters, not least of all because it explains the unexpected abandoning of the Tenets.

I agree that it works as an explanation, I'm just not sure it'll be the explanation. If Bethesda rolled that out as a way to explain what happened to the Dark Brotherhood, people would complain that they were simply recycling the Thieves Guild storyline. More likely we'll never really find out and it'll just be chalked up to "some shit that happened". Although, if I've understood correctly, the return of Alduin and the dragons is kinda the end of the world - maybe the gods just care less and less as time goes on, since the whole place is supposed to implode any day now?

As for the abandonment of the Tenets, perhaps as the Brotherhood became more of an association of thuggish mercenaries, the Tenets were found to be restrictive and gradually dropped out of favour? Considering that Festus and the little vampire both speak fondly of old days when the Old Ways were still followed, it's unlikely that anyone stodd up one day and announced that they no longer applied. More like a gradual shift in politics and approach made the Tenets seem less and less relevant to the new breed of assassin.

As far as Sithis and the Night Mother go, Sithis was the Void before the Universe was created, and represents Entropy.

Yet he still managed to father some kids? Impressive, for a void...

The Night Mother has changed over time, sometimes being a spirit, sometimes a real person. I think that most likely the title 'Night Mother' is applied to certain favoured priestesses of Sithis, in much the same way as Nocturnal has her Nightingales. And, like Nightingales, they serve in both life and death. But this is pure theory, even the lore goes to great lengths to shroud the Night Mother in uncertainty.

Now that's interesting. I always thought of the Night Mother as some sort of demi-goddess or something. That said, I only picked up the series at Oblivion, so I'm not very clear on what the difference between gods, daedra spirits and whatnot is. So you don't think the Night Mother in Skyrim is necessarily the same one from Oblivion?

 

[ShockValue]

I much preferred it over the other factions >.>

 

[SonicWaffle]

I found there weren't many creative ways of killing the targets. No dropping moose heads on elves. D=

Amen to that. Probably my lowest points were assassinating that Khajiit who travels with the caravan, and the elf from the Drunken Huntsman.

The Khajiit I just happened to meet crossing a bridge with his caravan, so I ran and hid and then sniped him with an arrow. The elf was even more pathetic; he was always at his stall during the day, and it seemed that no matter how long I waited he wouldn't leave the city to hunt. I ended up going into the shop when he was asleep, waiting until his brother was looking the other way, and sneak attacking with an axe. I've never felt less like a silent, murderous shadow and more like a hired thug.

 

[SonicWaffle]

I found there weren't many creative ways of killing the targets. No dropping moose heads on elves. D=

And we love...

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...chocolate!

 

[SonicWaffle]

I thought of it from the perspective of the operative from Serenity. While I kill to make a better world for everyone, I have no illusions that I am a monster and will have no place in that world.

That's an interesting viewpoint. I actually think that might work quite well to explain the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion. Not so much in Skyrim though, as those guys just want to kill stuff and get paid

Then I fed Grelod the Kind an Ebony Waraxe souffle and the children rejoiced.

Lulz.

Ebony waraxe FTW, too

 

[tobi the good boy]

I absolutely adored the Dark Brotherhood from Oblivion, the quests had a wonderful variety to them that really made you feel like the assassin that can get the job done, it was not simply "Kill this man and then get paid". You played a devious game of cluedo, framed the death of a contract, performed the ritual sacrifice of all those close to you and watched the gears of corruption churn before your very eyes. It was grand!

However, in Skyrim, that level of professionalism was missing entirely. As I walked through that ominous black door and down those cobblestone stairs I saw nothing but a group of cutthroats and psychopaths rejoicing in their brutish, primal tales of slaughter. With that said ... I loved the Dark Brotherhood of Skyrim! They gave me a wonderful glimpse of what had happened in the time between the oblivion crisis and now. I admit the quests were sometimes sloppy and simple, but I felt that represented the guild perfectly. They had no guidance, a rag tag group of outcasts clinging hopelessly to a title that had cast aside years ago without even knowing it. This, to me, is what made the main quest where you ...

Spoiler

Kill the Emperor

so much more enjoyable. I felt like I was dragging a group of apes out of the mud and showing them what it truly means to be a Dark Brother. I also loved the character of Cicero. He was so wonderfully mad that it made me giggle, and when I read his journals I only had my love for the character grow. This was a man who was an artisan with the blade, A great assassin, driven mad by his call of duty.

On a side note on my Skyrim character and how I RP him, he only joined the dark brotherhood after reading a novel about the Night Mother. I was playing a morally ambiguous character who has a fascination of the Daedra. He was captivated with the concept of Sithis and the Night Mother and joined them solely to expand his understanding of them. He killed without attachment, merely using the Dark Brotherhood as a means to reach an end, the Night Mother. He's not an evil person, but dangle a the opportunity to learn more about the Daedric Princes or other similar beings in front of him and he can do terrible things.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

That's a pretty solid theory you have there. I think that on reflection we should probably run with your take on matters, not least of all because it explains the unexpected abandoning of the Tenets.

As for the abandonment of the Tenets, perhaps as the Brotherhood became more of an association of thuggish mercenaries, the Tenets were found to be restrictive and gradually dropped out of favour? Considering that Festus and the little vampire both speak fondly of old days when the Old Ways were still followed, it's unlikely that anyone stodd up one day and announced that they no longer applied. More like a gradual shift in politics and approach made the Tenets seem less and less relevant to the new breed of assassin.

Perhaps less restrictive and more irrelevant? In a changing Brotherhood you could perhaps end up with the old guard, those Brotherhood members who remember serving under the direct supervision of the Night Mother, and the newer breed who have joined since the Night Mother became silent leading them to believe less and less in the power of Sithis and more and more in purely worldly matters.

The Night Mother has changed over time, sometimes being a spirit, sometimes a real person. I think that most likely the title 'Night Mother' is applied to certain favoured priestesses of Sithis, in much the same way as Nocturnal has her Nightingales. And, like Nightingales, they serve in both life and death. But this is pure theory, even the lore goes to great lengths to shroud the Night Mother in uncertainty.

Now that's interesting. I always thought of the Night Mother as some sort of demi-goddess or something. That said, I only picked up the series at Oblivion, so I'm not very clear on what the difference between gods, daedra spirits and whatnot is. So you don't think the Night Mother in Skyrim is necessarily the same one from Oblivion?

Aedra and Daedra, let's begin: when the TES universe was created there resided within a number of spirits. Some of these spirits, tricked by Lorkhan, created the mortal planes and races out of themselves, and became the Aedra, or Gods. These spirits gained the power of creation at the cost of some of their power, becoming mortal (although ageless). The spirits that did not take part in this creation retained their immortal nature but could not create life. These are the Daedra. Imperial sensibilities paint the Aedra as Gods and the Daedra as Devils, but Elvish lore recognizes both as elemental spirits, and in fact the very terms Aedra and Daedra mean 'our Ancestors' and 'not our Ancestors' respectively.

As for the Night Mother, it's possible that Cicero took the corpse from beneath Bravil, but there have been many Night Mothers over the course of history. Hell, in Morrowind if you're a member of the Morag Tong one of your assassinations is the Night Mother - then identified as an Imperial lass Severa Magia. There are accounts in the lore of the Night Mother dying in the 1st Era but being alive in the 2nd and so on, so it's clear that the title of Night Mother is transferable.

Also, although I haven't played Oblivion in a while, wasn't the Oblivion Night Mother (her corpse, not her spirit) portrayed as a skeleton laid on a slab? If so then the Oblivion and Skyrim corpses can't be the same Night Mother, unless over the last two hundred years she's grown some skin. Oblivion NM is a skeleton, Skyrim NM is a mummy.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

snip

I'm fairly sure that it mentions a relocation after the Great War destroyed the tomb in Bravil. How she looks could just be a redesign to make her look creepier.

 

[michiehoward]

I am at

Spoiler

The Dawnstar Sanctuary, to either kill Cicero or not. I hope I do not have to kill him because I agree with him, I don't want to be the boss, but if you summon Lucian he tells you that there is something wrong and he doesn't want to kill Cicero as it will piss off Sithis.

Do you have to kill Cicero?

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I am at

Spoiler

The Dawnstar Sanctuary, to either kill Cicero or not. I hope I do not have to kill him because I agree with him, I don't want to be the boss, but if you summon Lucian he tells you that there is something wrong and he doesn't want to kill Cicero as it will piss off Sithis.

Do you have to kill Cicero?

Nope, you don't have to.

Spoiler

You get him as a companion later if you don't.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

snip

I'm fairly sure that it mentions a relocation after the Great War destroyed the tomb in Bravil. How she looks could just be a redesign to make her look creepier.

But that seems kinda sloppy. I mean, since it is established fact that there has been more than one Night Mother, if you want to retain the illusion of a continuous Night Mother you can't go mucking about with said Night Mother. The Night Mothers as seen and indeed met in Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion have all been totally seperate entities, as well as books in these games describing yet more Night Mothers - so surely if Bethesda want to reinforce the belief that TES IV and TES V Night Mothers are one and the same they would have left her unchanged?

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Thieves guild was the worst as its mission was nothing to do with thieving, unlike in Oblivion which had a heist at the end. Loved the Dark Brotherhood missions, all the plot twists at the end was surprising. Hopefully they will bring out a DB game in the vein of Thief/AC games or just extra levels via DLC.

 

[michiehoward]

I am at

Spoiler

The Dawnstar Sanctuary, to either kill Cicero or not. I hope I do not have to kill him because I agree with him, I don't want to be the boss, but if you summon Lucian he tells you that there is something wrong and he doesn't want to kill Cicero as it will piss off Sithis.

Do you have to kill Cicero?

Nope, you don't have to.

Spoiler

You get him as a companion later if you don't.

So if you don't

Spoiler

Does it piss off Astrid? Does everyone turn against you, or do they end up respecting my authority?

Cause really I would rather not piss off Sithis.