Skyrim: Dark Brotherhood thoughts

[Ectoplasmicz]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

[...]

reading this, his life is looking bleak.

Maybe this will be the beginning of a "Adoption" Mod where you can "hoard" Children in one of your homes and bring them Sweetrolls and Daedric Artifacts (I meant toys) to play with...

Back on Topic:
I haven't really started the Dark Brotherhood questline, because I don't feel that I'm the right person to interfere with this "Ritual", which should my character feel to kill this Gerlod fella only because some "snotty-nosed brat" confounded him with an Dark Brotherhood assasin.

I can just see those kids now, "daaaaad, jerry keeps hogging the WabbaJack !DX and Chrisie keeps trapping Svens soul in Azuras star!!..."

if i had the Wabbajack at my disposal as a kid...the thought makes me smile. An evil smile at that.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

One of the loading screens says "last in all of Tamriel." So definitely the last on our continent.

Hmm, I've not seen that one. Then again, I only saw the loading screen about having to unlock Dragon Shouts yesterday, after 50 hours of play. I'd been waiting for them to unlock on their own!

The loading screens are a pain. Once in a while I'll see something new, then I'll have to read that verse from the Black Sacrament another hundred times. I keep getting that one load screen over and over and over...

Yeah, loading screens showing information that changes with what your character does sounded cool, but in reality it just loops the same six screens countless times. I know the verse that you are talking about. So many times....

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Much has been made of the Falkreath Sanctuary being the last surviving sanctuary in existence

Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, it's the last Sanctuary in Skyrim (not counting the abandoned one in Dawnstar) so we really don't know what the rest of the world is like. The Brotherhood are clearly still well-known to exist, so it's possible that in other parts of the Empire they're still struggling along. After all, times of major disruption are probably when assassins thrive.

I think the Night Mother waited so long simply because it took that bumbling jackass so long to find any Brotherhood remnants.

Why would they need to be Brotherhood remnants? If she wanted, she could choose anybody as Listener and have them rebuild the order wherever she wanted, according to her rules. It seems more likely to me that being an otherwordly being, she became aware of the upcoming rise of a Dovakhiin and headed to Skyrim so as to recruit a more powerful Listener, but that doesn't really explain why she'd let the Brotherhood crumble in the interim.

Ok, fair do's. I'd read it as last chapter in Tamriel, but there is that way of looking at it too. As for assassins thriving in times of disruption, I think you're wrong there. Assassins thrive in times of peace and stability, when the strong presence of law means people have no choice but to hire professionals as a way of settling scores. In times of war and civil unrest it's relatively easy to brand someone a sympathizer and bury an axe in their forehead yourself (I can see plenty of Nords taking this approach).

 

[SonicWaffle]

But its completely understandable, her way is what allowed the Brotherhood to survive all these years

There's an argument to be made that the Brotherhood hasn't survived; what exists now is just a group of thuggish hired killers, similar to the Brotherhood in name only, and even that's dwindling! The Brotherhood had something deeper to it than simply killing for money. With that in mind, can we really say that Astrid has kept the Dark Brotherhood alive, or has she simply remade it into something else?

and suddenly Cicero and the Night Mother show up to return the Brotherhood back to how it was, she'd understandably feel betrayed, especially with the knowledge that members of her "family" were supporting Cicero as well. By killing you she would ensure that the Brotherhood would never return to what it originally was.

The snag there is that, prior to you being named Listener, she seems to respect and even fear the Night Mother. Other members of the sanctuary are receptive to a return to the old ways. I didn't get the impression that it was returning to the old ways that frightened her, it was losing her grip on the reins and becoming subservient to someone else. After all, why wouldn't she want the Brotherhood to return to the glory days? Feared and respected across all Tamriel, able to dictate the fortunes of an empire by who they do or do not kill. Why would she rather be a gang of brutes living in a grotty cave when she could be that? We've already seen, in her quick enthusiasm for the Big Kill, that she wants the Dark Brotherhood returned to glory. She just wants to be in control when it does.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

One of the loading screens says "last in all of Tamriel." So definitely the last on our continent.

Hmm, I've not seen that one. Then again, I only saw the loading screen about having to unlock Dragon Shouts yesterday, after 50 hours of play. I'd been waiting for them to unlock on their own!

The loading screens are a pain. Once in a while I'll see something new, then I'll have to read that verse from the Black Sacrament another hundred times. I keep getting that one load screen over and over and over...

Yeah, loading screens showing information that changes with what your character does sounded cool, but in reality it just loops the same six screens countless times. I know the verse that you are talking about. So many times....

Sweet Mother, Sweet Mother, "Send your child unto me for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"

It wont leave my head ! D:

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

One of the loading screens says "last in all of Tamriel." So definitely the last on our continent.

Hmm, I've not seen that one. Then again, I only saw the loading screen about having to unlock Dragon Shouts yesterday, after 50 hours of play. I'd been waiting for them to unlock on their own!

The loading screens are a pain. Once in a while I'll see something new, then I'll have to read that verse from the Black Sacrament another hundred times. I keep getting that one load screen over and over and over...

Yeah, loading screens showing information that changes with what your character does sounded cool, but in reality it just loops the same six screens countless times. I know the verse that you are talking about. So many times....

Sweet Mother, Sweet Mother, "Send your child unto me for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"

It wont leave my head ! D:

I reckon the mojority of us are getting annoyed with that one.

I get a bit too excited when i see one i havent seen before!

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

But its completely understandable, her way is what allowed the Brotherhood to survive all these years

There's an argument to be made that the Brotherhood hasn't survived; what exists now is just a group of thuggish hired killers, similar to the Brotherhood in name only, and even that's dwindling! The Brotherhood had something deeper to it than simply killing for money. With that in mind, can we really say that Astrid has kept the Dark Brotherhood alive, or has she simply remade it into something else?

and suddenly Cicero and the Night Mother show up to return the Brotherhood back to how it was, she'd understandably feel betrayed, especially with the knowledge that members of her "family" were supporting Cicero as well. By killing you she would ensure that the Brotherhood would never return to what it originally was.

The snag there is that, prior to you being named Listener, she seems to respect and even fear the Night Mother. Other members of the sanctuary are receptive to a return to the old ways. I didn't get the impression that it was returning to the old ways that frightened her, it was losing her grip on the reins and becoming subservient to someone else. After all, why wouldn't she want the Brotherhood to return to the glory days? Feared and respected across all Tamriel, able to dictate the fortunes of an empire by who they do or do not kill. Why would she rather be a gang of brutes living in a grotty cave when she could be that? We've already seen, in her quick enthusiasm for the Big Kill, that she wants the Dark Brotherhood returned to glory. She just wants to be in control when it does.

Without a Listener or any members of the Black hand the Brotherhood lacked proper leadership, not to mention the Listener was how they got all their contracts, they literally would have died out had they stuck to the old ways Semantics i know. Although your point about her leadership is quite valid, and I think the ideas are linked, If the Brotherhood returns to what it was, then she loses her power.

Mainly though it does seem to be out of a twisted desire to keep her family safe, though at some times that does seem like a facade of sorts

 

[SonicWaffle]

Ok, fair do's. I'd read it as last chapter in Tamriel, but there is that way of looking at it too.

According to this guy

One of the loading screens says "last in all of Tamriel." So definitely the last on our continent.

you're right and I'm wrong, so there we go! Weird that the last chapter would survive in Skyrim, though, it's not the first place that pops to mind when you think about intrigue and quiet, secret murder. More of a "I'll hit a dude in the face with my axe" than "I'll hire an assassin" approach to problem solving.

As for assassins thriving in times of disruption, I think you're wrong there. Assassins thrive in times of peace and stability, when the strong presence of law means people have no choice but to hire professionals as a way of settling scores. In times of war and civil unrest it's relatively easy to brand someone a sympathizer and bury an axe in their forehead yourself (I can see plenty of Nords taking this approach).

Nords maybe, but remember that the entire continent is spiralling into chaos. The empire has just come out of a massive war, several lands have seceded, the Blades and the Thalmor have been fighting a secret, underground war. While I came imagine Nords getting straight to the point and stabbing a rival or enemy, I imagine that plenty of other politicians or people with an agenda or a grudge would try to use the chaos to gain an advantage. What better way than through an assassin who has no traceable link to you?

 

[Freaky Lou]

But yeah, there's certainly nothing as good as the hit in the manor house in Skingrad.

Amen, Brother.
They had little less fun contracts, but from the perspective, the brotherhood had fallen down to the lowest of possible situations so not many people were praying to the nightmother anymore. Thus less fun contracts... I guess?

It's not just that, but the fact that with no Listener, it's not guaranteed that the Brotherhood will even know about any attempts to contact them. I don't buy Astrid's assertion that "eventually we find out". Not many people are going to talk to the neighbors about the Black Sacrament they're doing in their basement.

Skyrim's DB quest was very disappointing for me, partly because of how comparatively boring most of the assassinations were, and partly because of what the storyline itself was. I was honestly offended by how little almost everyone in the guild cared about the Brotherhood traditions. For that reason, Gabriella was the only character I liked.

Cicero was definitely annoying, but I didn't want to kill him because he's one of maybe 2 current members with any respect for the old ways. Maybe this is just a testament to how great Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood was, but the changes in Brotherhood modus operandi as well as general attitudes amongst the guild were really awful in a way that put me off the game a bit.

I will say that the little process you go through to get into the guild in the first place is pretty cool, though it does limit roleplaying possibilities as mentioned earlier in the thread. That said, the woman you kill for it is the worst-written character I've seen in a while---when you get there's she lecturing the children about how they're worthless and no one will ever want them. Why would she do this? She mentions that they'll get an "extra" beating---on top of the beating they get every day regardless? And why does that other woman stand for all this? The cruelty is so over-the-top it's immersion-breaking.

On top of that...I don't believe that any child would cheer when someone was brutally killed in front of them, no matter how mean the person was.

Anyway.

Skyrim's DB does get a little better towards the end (especially the posing-as-a-chef mission and the final mission, which are awesome) but overall I feel it was a letdown after Oblivion's brilliance.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Yeah, loading screens showing information that changes with what your character does sounded cool, but in reality it just loops the same six screens countless times. I know the verse that you are talking about. So many times....

Are they supposed to change depending on what you do? I've seen them a million times on my Orc warrior, and he's had nothing to do with the Dark Brotherhood. Likewise, I keep seeing messages about magic, which I don't use.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Yeah, loading screens showing information that changes with what your character does sounded cool, but in reality it just loops the same six screens countless times. I know the verse that you are talking about. So many times....

Are they supposed to change depending on what you do? I've seen them a million times on my Orc warrior, and he's had nothing to do with the Dark Brotherhood. Likewise, I keep seeing messages about magic, which I don't use.

I have gotten 50,000 werewolf ones that didn't start until after I became a werewolf. So I don't know. Maybe they do a little?

 

[TheIronRuler]

The assassinations didn't have anything on the Oblivion ones, although I found the story itself plenty enjoyable (although I still preferred Oblivion's).

But yeah, there's certainly nothing as good as the hit in the manor house in Skingrad.

Yes, playing And Then There Were None was the best mission in Oblivion.
OP: Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood was way better for individual quests, but I like the storyline of Skyrim's more.

.
The quoest, 'Whoduit' was very awesome. I adored it!
But you're correct, skyrim has one nice plot.

 

[Ruwrak]

-snip-

So basically "We want more 'whodunnit' and suches"
And I agree with that. Though I think it fits the surroundings.
You gotta see that theyare just... no longer a big organisation and I am sure that Astrid has had her motivations and sources to 'get the contracts' to keep going even in the absence of a listener. I mean someone always wants someone dead. Basically what you do is -one- big contract. To Assassinate the emperor, oddly enough nothing happens after.

It's like everyone was "meh old guy dropped stage exit right... who cares?" right? I did love the dark humor though the whole plotline though. The little vampire got me giggeling a few times (babette) but I found the questline.. oddly short? Don't you think? I remember Oblivion beeing much much much more deeper and much more varied then this. What happened to the alternative ways of killing, entering the buildings and the bonus objectives that had you THINK for a moment. I tried to shoot someone on the balcony, only to be blocked by an invisible wall thus making me rush up the tower, stab her in the back and get a 1k bounty on my head.

Say what? Yes I got forced to get a bounty on my head =/ The frig going on here?

 

[SonicWaffle]

Without a Listener or any members of the Black hand the Brotherhood lacked proper leadership, not to mention the Listener was how they got all their contracts, they literally would have died out had they stuck to the old ways Semantics i know. Although your point about her leadership is quite valid, and I think the ideas are linked, If the Brotherhood returns to what it was, then she loses her power.

Perhaps the reason they didn't get a new Listener was because they were straying from the old ways? It's a theory, at least. I don't recall hearing how long it had been since there was a Listener or a Black Hand, and it's possible that cause and effect have locked one another into a downward spiral - the Brotherhood strays from the tenets because they don't have a Listener to guide them, the Night Mother doesn't choose a new Listener because they're straying from the tenets, and so on.

Mainly though it does seem to be out of a twisted desire to keep her family safe, though at some times that does seem like a facade of sorts

Maybe it seems that way because, being as mentally unbalanced as she (and almost all the others) are, it's quite hard to take her seriously when she talks about caring for other people. At times she seems to be in it for the power, at other times glory, and at others to protect her family. Once again, though, she's as crazy as the rest of them so a bit of instability is to be expected

 

[Freaky Lou]

-snip-

So basically "We want more 'whodunnit' and suches"
And I agree with that. Though I think it fits the surroundings.
You gotta see that theyare just... no longer a big organisation and I am sure that Astrid has had her motivations and sources to 'get the contracts' to keep going even in the absence of a listener. I mean someone always wants someone dead. Basically what you do is -one- big contract. To Assassinate the emperor, oddly enough nothing happens after.

It's like everyone was "meh old guy dropped stage exit right... who cares?" right? I did love the dark humor though the whole plotline though. The little vampire got me giggeling a few times (babette) but I found the questline.. oddly short? Don't you think? I remember Oblivion beeing much much much more deeper and much more varied then this. What happened to the alternative ways of killing, entering the buildings and the bonus objectives that had you THINK for a moment. I tried to shoot someone on the balcony, only to be blocked by an invisible wall thus making me rush up the tower, stab her in the back and get a 1k bounty on my head.

Say what? Yes I got forced to get a bounty on my head =/ The frig going on here?

That "nothing happens after" effect is a problem that's plagued the Elder Scrolls games for a long time now. It doesn't seem right that bandits--and for that matter, townsfolk if you commit a crime--jump straight into battle with you even though you're the Arena grand champion and the leader of the Fighter's Guild, or that no effects are felt if you murder Bravil's count.

Also, are you referring to the bridal reception quest? I sniped her from the balcony no problem.

 

[Ruwrak]

That "nothing happens after" effect is a problem that's plagued the Elder Scrolls games for a long time now. It doesn't seem right that bandits--and for that matter, townsfolk if you commit a crime--jump straight into battle with you even though you're the Arena grand champion and the leader of the Fighter's Guild, or that no effects are felt if you murder Bravil's count.

Also, are you referring to the bridal reception quest? I sniped her from the balcony no problem.

It gives me a headache. Yes I was referring to that quest. I stood at the door in the back of the ceremony, noone could see me, I would fire off an arrow, seathe my bow and casually stroll out while everyone was checking the balcony so I could get off spot free. But yes, invisible wall, and noone responded to the arrow falling into a bystander. Epic trickshot, sure but still...

Apart from a guard saying "I know you, hail sithis" there does not happen much. Though I wonder how they know I am with them... Not like I wear anything remotely linked to the DB.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Without a Listener or any members of the Black hand the Brotherhood lacked proper leadership, not to mention the Listener was how they got all their contracts, they literally would have died out had they stuck to the old ways Semantics i know. Although your point about her leadership is quite valid, and I think the ideas are linked, If the Brotherhood returns to what it was, then she loses her power.

Perhaps the reason they didn't get a new Listener was because they were straying from the old ways? It's a theory, at least. I don't recall hearing how long it had been since there was a Listener or a Black Hand, and it's possible that cause and effect have locked one another into a downward spiral - the Brotherhood strays from the tenets because they don't have a Listener to guide them, the Night Mother doesn't choose a new Listener because they're straying from the tenets, and so on.

Mainly though it does seem to be out of a twisted desire to keep her family safe, though at some times that does seem like a facade of sorts

Maybe it seems that way because, being as mentally unbalanced as she (and almost all the others) are, it's quite hard to take her seriously when she talks about caring for other people. At times she seems to be in it for the power, at other times glory, and at others to protect her family. Once again, though, she's as crazy as the rest of them so a bit of instability is to be expected

Id estimate a good 30-20 years since their listener died? Im fairly certain it was just before the White Gold Concordat when the Empire was warring with the Thalmor. Astrids been in power for a long time.

I think i also keep failing to remember that Astrid is balls to the walls crazy just like everyone else, she mentions in one of the first conversations she has with you that she discovered her love of murder at a young age, maybe this generation of assassins are a bit crazier than previous ones because they have no god to guide them on their path? Perhaps it was Sithis's influence that allowed the Brotherhood to be seen as separate from other assassins

 

[Kopikatsu]

I'll guess that I'm the only one who took the 'Destroy the Dark Brotherhood!' quest instead of joining them?

That'll teach them to send 14 Assassins after me. I don't even know what I did to get the Black Sacrament preformed! I was RPing a completely pure goody goody two shoes Nord.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Nords maybe, but remember that the entire continent is spiralling into chaos. The empire has just come out of a massive war, several lands have seceded, the Blades and the Thalmor have been fighting a secret, underground war. While I came imagine Nords getting straight to the point and stabbing a rival or enemy, I imagine that plenty of other politicians or people with an agenda or a grudge would try to use the chaos to gain an advantage. What better way than through an assassin who has no traceable link to you?

Ah, but with the rise of the Aldmeri Dominion I would expect a rise in the power of the Morag Tong. The Tong and the Brotherhood have been at war since the Brotherhood's founding, and I strongly suspect the Dunmer Morag Tong would have found a great deal of power and advantage in the new Elven superpower that is the Dominion. Chances are that the underground war between the Tong and the Brotherhood came very briefly and bloodily to the surface and the Tong, with the aid of the Thalmor, drove the Brotherhood out of Elven lands, leading to a sharp decline in the Brotherhood's power.

At a wild guess. No doubt Bethesda will prove me wrong!

 

[King of the Sandbox]

Loving Skyrim, but i can't help but feel that the Dark Brotherhood quest line was a bit...underwhelming.

For me the Dark Brotherhood quests in Oblivion were far more enjoyable.

What are your thoughts?

Not too long after I miraculously escaped my own beheading, some lizardman jumped me and tried his best to kill me. When I looted his corpse, he turned out to be an assassin working under a Dark Brotherhood contract, so I did take it personal and eventually ended up killing them all... that was quite satisfactory, and gave my blade-conjuring rogue some sweet loot.

So, while I have not felt like siding with the Dark Brotherhood during my first playthrough, all I can add to the subject is this: Killing them all felt very, very good, and I haven't felt like I missed out on something.

Same. And I felt like a total badass while I was stealth killing the FRIGGIN BROTHERHOOD IN THEIR OWN HOMES.