Skyrim: Dark Brotherhood thoughts

[kouriichi]

Raj enjoy his family of the Dark. Make me feel welcome! They dont try to stab Raj everytime he do something wrong. Which is first time in long time i feel this welcome.

And good for bringing in money. While Raj does not enjoy killing, (unless moonsugar is involved), he cannot deny good income, helps pay for habits.

Wife Mjoll not approve though. She say i always track blood in house, ruin carpets. Raj say, "You clean them anyway! Besides, Mjoll enjoy cleaning!"


....Raj has not slept in bed since he bought house. Needs to think before speak more often.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Thank you so much for blowing my mind on the whole Skyrim Dark Brotherhood, it actually makes me see it in a new light, it may not feel any more enjoyable but at least now I can appreciate its story more.

Pretty good work for a guy who only started thinking about this an hour ago, right? ;-)

At times i did somewhat support Astrids cause, I mean shes never really had any indication at all that there was a god like figure directing the brotherhood, and Cicero does somewhat embody all her hates and fears of the old way

I never particularly disliked Astrid, as for the most part she was trying to do what she thought was best for her surrogate family, but I'm not as charitable towards her motivations as you. It seemed to me that she saw the Night Mother returning, and particularly the choice of the player as her Listener, as an attempt to supplant her and rob her of her power, and resented it as such. She took it personally, and it only fuelled her hatred of Cicero, because she thought she'd be toppled from her perch. Remember when you were named Listener, and she got angry and insisted that you follow her orders, not the Night Mother's?

The Brotherhood has changed from what it was, and she'd grown used to that. She didn't like the idea of taking orders from the Night Mother, or indeed anyone, and it was this attitude that lead to her badmouthing Cicero and the Night Mother which in turn led to Cicero attempting to kill her. I can understand her motivation completely, but she certainly did bring a lot of trouble down on herself.

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

Raj enjoy his family of the Dark. Make me feel welcome! They dont try to stab Raj everytime he do something wrong. Which is first time in long time i feel this welcome.

And good for bringing in money. While Raj does not enjoy killing, (unless moonsugar is involved), he cannot deny good income, helps pay for habits.

Wife Mjoll not approve though. She say i always track blood in house, ruin carpets. Raj say, "You clean them anyway! Besides, Mjoll enjoy cleaning!"


....Raj has not slept in bed since he bought house. Needs to think before speak more often.

never, ever stop talking like that.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Thank you so much for blowing my mind on the whole Skyrim Dark Brotherhood, it actually makes me see it in a new light, it may not feel any more enjoyable but at least now I can appreciate its story more.

Pretty good work for a guy who only started thinking about this an hour ago, right? ;-)

At times i did somewhat support Astrids cause, I mean shes never really had any indication at all that there was a god like figure directing the brotherhood, and Cicero does somewhat embody all her hates and fears of the old way

I never particularly disliked Astrid, as for the most part she was trying to do what she thought was best for her surrogate family, but I'm not as charitable towards her motivations as you. It seemed to me that she saw the Night Mother returning, and particularly the choice of the player as her Listener, as an attempt to supplant her and rob her of her power, and resented it as such. She took it personally, and it only fuelled her hatred of Cicero, because she thought she'd be toppled from her perch. Remember when you were named Listener, and she got angry and insisted that you follow her orders, not the Night Mother's?

The Brotherhood has changed from what it was, and she'd grown used to that. She didn't like the idea of taking orders from the Night Mother, or indeed anyone, and it was this attitude that lead to her badmouthing Cicero and the Night Mother which in turn led to Cicero attempting to kill her. I can understand her motivation completely, but she certainly did bring a lot of trouble down on herself.

But its completely understandable, her way is what allowed the Brotherhood to survive all these years and suddenly Cicero and the Night Mother show up to return the Brotherhood back to how it was, she'd understandably feel betrayed, especially with the knowledge that members of her "family" were supporting Cicero as well. By killing you she would ensure that the Brotherhood would never return to what it originally was. I think the scene when she realizes just what the Brotherhood really is about, more than makes up for all the preceding quests. Its incredibly disturbing, but powerful none the less

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Raj enjoy his family of the Dark. Make me feel welcome! They dont try to stab Raj everytime he do something wrong. Which is first time in long time i feel this welcome.

And good for bringing in money. While Raj does not enjoy killing, (unless moonsugar is involved), he cannot deny good income, helps pay for habits.

Wife Mjoll not approve though. She say i always track blood in house, ruin carpets. Raj say, "You clean them anyway! Besides, Mjoll enjoy cleaning!"


....Raj has not slept in bed since he bought house. Needs to think before speak more often.

I love you, so, so much

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

True. I was a little perturbed when I first entered the Sanctuary and found my new 'brothers' just joking around like a bunch of halfwits. They do give the impression that they're a group of manic cut-throats rather than cold, calculating assassins. An ancient society in it's final death throes, desperately recruiting common murderers in a last desperate attempt to postpone the inevitable.

Pretty much, which begs the question of why the Night Mother has waited so long to choose a Listener. Clearly the decline has been happening for a long time, and the Five Tenets were abandoned long ago.

Of course all that will change when my Khajiit proves himself as Listener and gets to run things his way...

Sadly I'm not sure how much change you can actually make. I haven't gotten to the end of the quest line yet, but it seems like pulling the Brotherhood back from the brink is pretty impossible.

Much has been made of the Falkreath Sanctuary being the last surviving sanctuary in existence, and I can see in my mind's eye Cicero moving the Night Mother's remains from Leyawiin to avoid discovery and travelling to the Cheydinhal sanctuary only to find it a deserted tomb. There follows a desperate and unintended tour of Tamriel, each time Cicero expecting to find brothers in hiding but each time finding an empty lair. I think the Night Mother waited so long simply because it took that bumbling jackass so long to find any Brotherhood remnants.

 

[zenoaugustus]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

Considering the Brotherhood is contacted by other people to kill and doesn't just kill random people, typically the folks who are selected "deserve" to die. I don't want to deal out death in judgement, but it is a game, so I'll speak a little more freely. For instance, in the first DB quest in Oblivion, your target is a pedophile. The world would probably be better without him. You also target a vampire in Skyrim. And you can bet that those kids in that orphanage will live a better life without that ***** you kill. Does it make killing right? No, but they will still have a better life now. Does that make the Dark Brotherhood inherently evil? I don't think so. Definitely not the nicest folks you'd expect to see around, but they also aren't downright evil.

It would be for those who prefer the idea of "taking justice into their own hands" with some clauses and all.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

Considering the Brotherhood is contacted by other people to kill and doesn't just kill random people, typically the folks who are selected "deserve" to die. I don't want to deal out death in judgement, but it is a game, so I'll speak a little more freely. For instance, in the first DB quest in Oblivion, your target is a pedophile. The world would probably be better without him. You also target a vampire in Skyrim. And you can bet that those kids in that orphanage will live a better life without that ***** you kill. Does it make killing right? No, but they will still have a better life now. Does that make the Dark Brotherhood inherently evil? I don't think so. Definitely not the nicest folks you'd expect to see around, but they also aren't downright evil.

It would be for those who prefer the idea of "taking justice into their own hands" with some clauses and all.

But the Vampire you kill is a really nice guy, he runs a mill and trades with towns, i felt bad about killing him, though it was kinda badass to go up to him and say "Assassin vs Vampire, A battle for the ages"

 

[SonicWaffle]

Much has been made of the Falkreath Sanctuary being the last surviving sanctuary in existence

Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, it's the last Sanctuary in Skyrim (not counting the abandoned one in Dawnstar) so we really don't know what the rest of the world is like. The Brotherhood are clearly still well-known to exist, so it's possible that in other parts of the Empire they're still struggling along. After all, times of major disruption are probably when assassins thrive.

I think the Night Mother waited so long simply because it took that bumbling jackass so long to find any Brotherhood remnants.

Why would they need to be Brotherhood remnants? If she wanted, she could choose anybody as Listener and have them rebuild the order wherever she wanted, according to her rules. It seems more likely to me that being an otherwordly being, she became aware of the upcoming rise of a Dovakhiin and headed to Skyrim so as to recruit a more powerful Listener, but that doesn't really explain why she'd let the Brotherhood crumble in the interim.

 

[zenoaugustus]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

Considering the Brotherhood is contacted by other people to kill and doesn't just kill random people, typically the folks who are selected "deserve" to die. I don't want to deal out death in judgement, but it is a game, so I'll speak a little more freely. For instance, in the first DB quest in Oblivion, your target is a pedophile. The world would probably be better without him. You also target a vampire in Skyrim. And you can bet that those kids in that orphanage will live a better life without that ***** you kill. Does it make killing right? No, but they will still have a better life now. Does that make the Dark Brotherhood inherently evil? I don't think so. Definitely not the nicest folks you'd expect to see around, but they also aren't downright evil.

It would be for those who prefer the idea of "taking justice into their own hands" with some clauses and all.

But the Vampire you kill is a really nice guy, he runs a mill and trades with towns, i felt bad about killing him, though it was kinda badass to go up to him and say "Assassin vs Vampire, A battle for the ages"

Perhaps, but how does he not get to stage 4 of vampirism? There has to be something allowing him to continue his appearance as a regular guy. I never said killing him was right, but he clearly is not a saint.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Much has been made of the Falkreath Sanctuary being the last surviving sanctuary in existence

Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, it's the last Sanctuary in Skyrim (not counting the abandoned one in Dawnstar) so we really don't know what the rest of the world is like. The Brotherhood are clearly still well-known to exist, so it's possible that in other parts of the Empire they're still struggling along. After all, times of major disruption are probably when assassins thrive.

I think the Night Mother waited so long simply because it took that bumbling jackass so long to find any Brotherhood remnants.

Why would they need to be Brotherhood remnants? If she wanted, she could choose anybody as Listener and have them rebuild the order wherever she wanted, according to her rules. It seems more likely to me that being an otherwordly being, she became aware of the upcoming rise of a Dovakhiin and headed to Skyrim so as to recruit a more powerful Listener, but that doesn't really explain why she'd let the Brotherhood crumble in the interim.

One of the loading screens says "last in all of Tamriel." So definitely the last on our continent.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Considering the Brotherhood is contacted by other people to kill and doesn't just kill random people, typically the folks who are selected "deserve" to die.

That's an enormous grey area. Whether or not someone "deserves" to die is entirely a matter of perspective. When the Night Mother selects a target, we know that her morality doesn't run parallel to that of ordinary people - she murdered all her own children to please her lover, remember - so what makes her selection any more worthy than killing random people on the street?

Everyone you assassinate dies for a reason, but that doesn't mean they deserve it.

It would be for those who prefer the idea of "taking justice into their own hands" with some clauses and all.

Justice, as defined by Astrid? The Night Mother? Yourself? It's all perspective.

 

[darth.pixie]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

Not to join. Just hear that the little Aretino boy is in trouble thus help him by getting the old woman fired or alert the Jarl or take the kid to a good family. I just named three outcomes that would have worked for a good character that wouldn't have ended in murder. As is, it's just a ploy to get the Brotherhood to notice you so you either let him go on with the summoning or you kill an old woman.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

Considering the Brotherhood is contacted by other people to kill and doesn't just kill random people, typically the folks who are selected "deserve" to die. I don't want to deal out death in judgement, but it is a game, so I'll speak a little more freely. For instance, in the first DB quest in Oblivion, your target is a pedophile. The world would probably be better without him. You also target a vampire in Skyrim. And you can bet that those kids in that orphanage will live a better life without that ***** you kill. Does it make killing right? No, but they will still have a better life now. Does that make the Dark Brotherhood inherently evil? I don't think so. Definitely not the nicest folks you'd expect to see around, but they also aren't downright evil.

It would be for those who prefer the idea of "taking justice into their own hands" with some clauses and all.

But the Vampire you kill is a really nice guy, he runs a mill and trades with towns, i felt bad about killing him, though it was kinda badass to go up to him and say "Assassin vs Vampire, A battle for the ages"

Perhaps, but how does he not get to stage 4 of vampirism? There has to be something allowing him to continue his appearance as a regular guy. I never said killing him was right, but he clearly is not a saint.

Well who's going to miss a pinch of blood huh? I mean its either that or kill your family and everyone you love. Also maybe the Player Character just lacks self control

 

[SidingWithTheEnemy]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

[...]

reading this, his life is looking bleak.

Maybe this will be the beginning of a "Adoption" Mod where you can "hoard" Children in one of your homes and bring them Sweetrolls and Daedric Artifacts (I meant toys) to play with...

Back on Topic:
I haven't really started the Dark Brotherhood questline, because I don't feel that I'm the right person to interfere with this "Ritual", which should my character feel to kill this Gerlod fella only because some "snotty-nosed brat" confounded him with an Dark Brotherhood assasin.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Everyone you assassinate dies for a reason, but that doesn't mean they deserve it.

I swear to god the best contract you get in the game is to

Spoiler

Kill Lurburk the Orc Bard, considered to be the worst bard in all of Tamriel, apparently so many contracts were put on him that Astrid needed to draw straws to see who's contract they accepted XD

 

[SonicWaffle]

One of the loading screens says "last in all of Tamriel." So definitely the last on our continent.

Hmm, I've not seen that one. Then again, I only saw the loading screen about having to unlock Dragon Shouts yesterday, after 50 hours of play. I'd been waiting for them to unlock on their own!

The loading screens are a pain. Once in a while I'll see something new, then I'll have to read that verse from the Black Sacrament another hundred times. I keep getting that one load screen over and over and over...

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

[...]

reading this, his life is looking bleak.

Maybe this will be the beginning of a "Adoption" Mod where you can "hoard" Children in one of your homes and bring them Sweetrolls and Daedric Artifacts (I meant toys) to play with...

Back on Topic:
I haven't really started the Dark Brotherhood questline, because I don't feel that I'm the right person to interfere with this "Ritual", which should my character feel to kill this Gerlod fella only because some "snotty-nosed brat" confounded him with an Dark Brotherhood assasin.

Kids would love to play with those types of 'toys'.

it would be a brotherhood toddlers school, teching the up and coming assasins the tools of the trade.

 

[zenoaugustus]

Justice, as defined by Astrid? The Night Mother? Yourself? It's all perspective.

I mean, that kind of was the point of what I was saying. That's why it is up to you to decide to see if you will join or not. It clearly isn't right to kill someone. But it certain senses it is justifiable, depending on the person. Again, I think most people would agree Rufus probably "deserved" to die. But does it make it right? Should one person have the right to deal out death and judgement? In my mind no. But it is easy to see how it can be.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

[...]

reading this, his life is looking bleak.

Maybe this will be the beginning of a "Adoption" Mod where you can "hoard" Children in one of your homes and bring them Sweetrolls and Daedric Artifacts (I meant toys) to play with...

Back on Topic:
I haven't really started the Dark Brotherhood questline, because I don't feel that I'm the right person to interfere with this "Ritual", which should my character feel to kill this Gerlod fella only because some "snotty-nosed brat" confounded him with an Dark Brotherhood assasin.

I can just see those kids now, "daaaaad, jerry keeps hogging the WabbaJack !DX and Chrisie keeps trapping Svens soul in Azuras star!!..."