Skyrim: Dark Brotherhood thoughts

[DEAD34345]

A "good" person might be interested in helping out the emotionally disturbed orphan seeking revenge on his tormentor. Whether that extends to murder (for the greater good - remember how the orphans celebrated when you killed her?) depends on your own morality and definition of a "good" person, I suppose.

I think what the first poster meant was there's no way to find out any more details, or take a third option; you talk to the boy, you get the quest, and that's it. You can't try to help in another fashion, you can't try to talk to Grelod the Kind about her behaviour or have her replaced by someone better, it's kill her or nothing. A good character would want to improve the situation, but maybe not want to become a murderous assassin, but you don't really get the option.

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

)rStrangelove]

I actually find just wandering around doing dungeons to be far more fun than any of the storyline quests.

Thats actually true, its like writing the adventure while playing it.

On my last run i came out of a dungeon and was greeted by a bear. Hiding wasnt an option so i fought him for a bit until i realized he was gaining the upper hand (veteran bear?). I used some shouts while climbing around on some rocks so he couldnt get to me so easily when suddenly he was on fire.

One of the dragons came by and killed both of us. There's always a bigger fish i guess.

i just use the wabbajack and hope they turn into a sweet roll or a chicken.

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

)rStrangelove]

I actually find just wandering around doing dungeons to be far more fun than any of the storyline quests.

Thats actually true, its like writing the adventure while playing it.

On my last run i came out of a dungeon and was greeted by a bear. Hiding wasnt an option so i fought him for a bit until i realized he was gaining the upper hand (veteran bear?). I used some shouts while climbing around on some rocks so he couldnt get to me so easily when suddenly he was on fire.

One of the dragons came by and killed both of us. There's always a bigger fish i guess.

i just use the wabbajack and hope they turn into a sweet roll or a chicken.

I just got that weapon (I almost screamed with excitement when I saw Sheogorath again! XD), but I have not really used it yet. Can it really do that? 0_0

it has a random effect, so it can turn someone into a chicken, or use a frost or destruction spell, disintegrate them. AWESOMENESS. but there is a downside, it can also clone the enemy, heal them, or turn them invisible. and trust me, turning a giant invisible because the last one got turned into a chicken isnt pleasant.

 

[Deadyawn]

I thought the entire plot was interesting but it was too damn short I kinda wish that (Big spoiler ahead)

Spoiler

we got to know the members better before the empire killed most of them. I mean really it was just

Babette- Vampire loli, who happens to make potions
The sarcastic redguard who trains you light armour
The werewolf who i thought was pretty badass but didnt get enough screen time
Astrid, who didnt like the old brotherhood ways one bit
The Argonian who I absolutely loved but once again, didnt get enough characterisation
The crazy mage
The dark elf
And that spider thing

It was a little dissapointing , especially since they were all so delightfully twisted

I absolutely agree. I was all like "oh, bethesda has made a cast of named, varied and interesting NPC's I hope I get to know them well". Yeah, right. Bethesda doesn't do that.

 

[Deadyawn]

And I felt that the quest to get into the Brotherhood (Innocent Lost) was really railroaded. It's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character in it.

What? In what situation would a "good" person ever be interested in joining the Dark Brotherhood anyway? The reason it's impossible to role-play an interested yet good character is because a good character would never be interested, unless I'm missing something.

A "good" person might be interested in helping out the emotionally disturbed orphan seeking revenge on his tormentor. Whether that extends to murder (for the greater good - remember how the orphans celebrated when you killed her?) depends on your own morality and definition of a "good" person, I suppose.

I think what the first poster meant was there's no way to find out any more details, or take a third option; you talk to the boy, you get the quest, and that's it. You can't try to help in another fashion, you can't try to talk to Grelod the Kind about her behaviour or have her replaced by someone better, it's kill her or nothing. A good character would want to improve the situation, but maybe not want to become a murderous assassin, but you don't really get the option.

I suppose thats true but if you do just kill grelod and you get to the next bit you can just kill astrid. If you do you get a quest to annhialte the dark brotherhood so...you could do that.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I thought the entire plot was interesting but it was too damn short I kinda wish that (Big spoiler ahead)

Spoiler

we got to know the members better before the empire killed most of them. I mean really it was just

Babette- Vampire loli, who happens to make potions
The sarcastic redguard who trains you light armour
The werewolf who i thought was pretty badass but didnt get enough screen time
Astrid, who didnt like the old brotherhood ways one bit
The Argonian who I absolutely loved but once again, didnt get enough characterisation
The crazy mage
The dark elf
And that spider thing

It was a little dissapointing , especially since they were all so delightfully twisted

I absolutely agree. I was all like "oh, bethesda has made a cast of named, varied and interesting NPC's I hope I get to know them well". Yeah, right. Bethesda doesn't do that.

I just wish they kept Veezara, for gods sake hes an endangered species D:

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Although i was overjoyed when

Spoiler

i got to kill cicero, that guy was infruriating and unbelievably annoying.

Spoiler

I couldn't do it. I sat there for about five minutes wanting to kill him but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Yeah I thought Oblivion's dark brotherhood was better except for the start of Skyrim's. That place was freaking awesome.
On another note I also thought the thieves guild was better in Oblivion.

 

[ipop@you]

I quite like the Dark Brotherhood, even though the quests weren't as good and there was less of them I felt that the entire story of it had a good feel especially during the last missions with the interesting twists it felt almost like a movie to me.

The main thing I'm talking about is how you really don't expect Astrid to be the traitor but then she also kind of isn't the traitor. The movie feeling I'm talking about is right at the end quest when you all fell defeated but you just go 'No' and carry on anyway despite the troubles.

Oh yeah and I liked how Astrid is an anagram of Tardis and how the Dark Brotherhood gloves mean I do 30x damage with dagger sneak attacks.

 

[SonicWaffle]

I suppose thats true but if you do just kill grelod and you get to the next bit you can just kill astrid. If you do you get a quest to annhialte the dark brotherhood so...you could do that.

Sure, but you (from the perspective of your character) don't know that. If you're roleplaying as the ultimate goody-two-shoes, murdering an old woman is probably a no-no. Even if you're aware that killing her will allow you to eradicate a greater evil, those characters who only kill in self defense and try to be as nice as they can be will probably not want to do it.

I absolutely agree. I was all like "oh, bethesda has made a cast of named, varied and interesting NPC's I hope I get to know them well". Yeah, right. Bethesda doesn't do that.

The Thieves Guild was worse for that. You're dragging it back from the gutter, the Ragged Flagon is becoming livelier and the coin is rolling in. You've even got new members joining the guild! Then you go talk to your new recruit, they give a brief origin story and then nothing! They just stand around doing fuck all. Hardly the bustling hubbub of a reborn guild, just a bunch of twats sitting around in a sewer. What was even the point of having new characters join if they aren't going to do anything?!

 

[SonicWaffle]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

You know what's only just occured to me? Even if you kill Grelod, you pretty much leave the orphan to die anyway. You help the kid out, he rewards you, and then you just walk away and leave him there alone. In a dusty and abandoned house. With a dead body. In a town full of people who believe him to be cursed. In a situation where a woman who he publicly threatened with murder has been murdered, and his fellow orphans are even giving him credit for the murder. His life is not going to go very well; either the city guards will issue a warrant (he's known to be attempting the Black Sacrament and has strong motive for wanting Grelod dead, plus once they search his home they'll find a corpse set up for what looks like a necromantic ritual) and he'll have an uncomfortable time in a dungeon, the townspeople will turn on him (because Nords seem to hate and fear anyone different from themselves and he's already built up an unpleasant rep around town) and drive him out or murder him, he'll starve to death (as an orphan with no life skills, any job he's able to get is likely to be horrendous and badly-paid, not to mention that he probably can't cook and will be evicted from the house he's squatting in when he can't pay the rent) or freeze in the cold winters...really, I don't see any way for it to end well for the kid, and you just took what was probably his last valuable item and walked away.

Sure, he says he wants to be an assassin when he grows up, but what are the odds he'll make it that far? I note that Astrid made no move to bring him into the "family", and even if she had that wouldn't have ended well either.

 

[Ectoplasmicz]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

You know what's only just occured to me? Even if you kill Grelod, you pretty much leave the orphan to die anyway. You help the kid out, he rewards you, and then you just walk away and leave him there alone. In a dusty and abandoned house. With a dead body. In a town full of people who believe him to be cursed. In a situation where a woman who he publicly threatened with murder has been murdered, and his fellow orphans are even giving him credit for the murder. His life is not going to go very well; either the city guards will issue a warrant (he's known to be attempting the Black Sacrament and has strong motive for wanting Grelod dead, plus once they search his home they'll find a corpse set up for what looks like a necromantic ritual) and he'll have an uncomfortable time in a dungeon, the townspeople will turn on him (because Nords seem to hate and fear anyone different from themselves and he's already built up an unpleasant rep around town) and drive him out or murder him, he'll starve to death (as an orphan with no life skills, any job he's able to get is likely to be horrendous and badly-paid, not to mention that he probably can't cook and will be evicted from the house he's squatting in when he can't pay the rent) or freeze in the cold winters...really, I don't see any way for it to end well for the kid, and you just took what was probably his last valuable item and walked away.

Sure, he says he wants to be an assassin when he grows up, but what are the odds he'll make it that far? I note that Astrid made no move to bring him into the "family", and even if she had that wouldn't have ended well either.

reading this, his life is looking bleak.

 

[SonicWaffle]

And I couldn't figure out the starting test so slaughtered all three of the helpless buggers; which went down surprisingly well. I was expecting some lecture about learning control, not a pat on the back.

Closest I can figure, it doesn't matter who you kill. There is no "right" answer, it's just Astrid testing you to see if you'll murder on command like a good dog. It's another good way to demonstrate how far the Dark Brotherhood has fallen, and how thuggish they've become, that they'll happily recruit members who appear to be cheerily psychotic about slaughtering ordinary people and invite them to tell tales of their gruesome murders around the fire.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Ah, that makes sense. When he said "the quest to get into the Brotherhood" my mind immediately went to With Friends Like These... even though he does say he's talking about Innocence Lost. That's fair enough, it did seem a bit silly that you either killed Grelod or left the orphan to die.

You know what's only just occured to me? Even if you kill Grelod, you pretty much leave the orphan to die anyway. You help the kid out, he rewards you, and then you just walk away and leave him there alone. In a dusty and abandoned house. With a dead body. In a town full of people who believe him to be cursed. In a situation where a woman who he publicly threatened with murder has been murdered, and his fellow orphans are even giving him credit for the murder. His life is not going to go very well; either the city guards will issue a warrant (he's known to be attempting the Black Sacrament and has strong motive for wanting Grelod dead, plus once they search his home they'll find a corpse set up for what looks like a necromantic ritual) and he'll have an uncomfortable time in a dungeon, the townspeople will turn on him (because Nords seem to hate and fear anyone different from themselves and he's already built up an unpleasant rep around town) and drive him out or murder him, he'll starve to death (as an orphan with no life skills, any job he's able to get is likely to be horrendous and badly-paid, not to mention that he probably can't cook and will be evicted from the house he's squatting in when he can't pay the rent) or freeze in the cold winters...really, I don't see any way for it to end well for the kid, and you just took what was probably his last valuable item and walked away.

Sure, he says he wants to be an assassin when he grows up, but what are the odds he'll make it that far? I note that Astrid made no move to bring him into the "family", and even if she had that wouldn't have ended well either.

Why must you make this so depressing Why couldn't you have just left it at the happy tale of boy performing a necromantic ritual to summon a guild of assassins to kill a woman who was mean to him?

 

[EHKOS]

I thought the entire plot was interesting but it was too damn short I kinda wish that (Big spoiler ahead)

Spoiler

we got to know the members better before the empire killed most of them. I mean really it was just

Babette- Vampire loli, who happens to make potions
The sarcastic redguard who trains you light armour
The werewolf who i thought was pretty badass but didnt get enough screen time
Astrid, who didnt like the old brotherhood ways one bit
The Argonian who I absolutely loved but once again, didnt get enough characterisation
The crazy mage
The dark elf
And that spider thing

It was a little dissapointing , especially since they were all so delightfully twisted

I'm really pleased with the the Cicero character; you (probably) first meet him quite early in the game as an seemingly innocent crazy guy transporting his 'mother'.

Then you find out he's a Keeper of the Dark Brotherhood.

His journals do a great job exposing his past (as well as the Dark Brotherhood's). Also, his armor is sweet.

Spoiler

He is my favorite Dark Brotherhood member. I was relieved to hear that Sithis didn't want me to kill him. An identical set of his armor is lying on the table to the left of you when you enter the Dawnstar Sanctuary.

Its not as good though his is slightly better. And I feel bad that I didnt listen to Sithis the first time

Spoiler

Yeah, if you summon Lachance's ghost, he says that Sithis does not desire Cicero's death. You get Cicero as a companion later on which is fun.

Aw that sucks! I didn't hear Sithis say anything! And Cicero was so cool.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

And I couldn't figure out the starting test so slaughtered all three of the helpless buggers; which went down surprisingly well. I was expecting some lecture about learning control, not a pat on the back.

Closest I can figure, it doesn't matter who you kill. There is no "right" answer, it's just Astrid testing you to see if you'll murder on command like a good dog. It's another good way to demonstrate how far the Dark Brotherhood has fallen, and how thuggish they've become, that they'll happily recruit members who appear to be cheerily psychotic about slaughtering ordinary people and invite them to tell tales of their gruesome murders around the fire.

True. I was a little perturbed when I first entered the Sanctuary and found my new 'brothers' just joking around like a bunch of halfwits. They do give the impression that they're a group of manic cut-throats rather than cold, calculating assassins. An ancient society in it's final death throes, desperately recruiting common murderers in a last desperate attempt to postpone the inevitable.

Of course all that will change when my Khajiit proves himself as Listener and gets to run things his way...

 

[SonicWaffle]

That.. that is some of the most clever stuff ive read all night.

Thankyou. I try :-D

Although to be fair the quest where you drop the head on the guy in bruma was pretty much the only creative quest, barring the one where you kill off an entire party one by one, apart from that most of the quests for the DB in Oblivion were somewhat forgettable.

This is true, but it's more than just the missions. Think back to your first encounter with the group, where they were sitting around laughing about contracts, and how Festus is apparently working on a spell to turn a man inside out. Can you imagine that happening in Oblivion? There they had focus, direction from a higher power, and a strict heirachy. I'm not saying there weren't thugs amongst them, but the Brotherhood as a whole had an air of mysticism and secrecy. Oblivion's DB were a slit throat in a dark alleyway, Skyrim's is a glassed face in a bar brawl. Each mission for them boils down to "go there, kill this guy, get paid" with little feeling of working for any greater purpose. Even the missions leading up to the Big Kill at the end struck me less as careful preparation for a major event and more of a way to show off how badass the DB was.

Although not the DB in skyrim, theyre all crazy as hell, with the exception of maybe Veezara, he seems relatively sane.

Which fits the theory, really; he's not one of them, not really. He's a Shadowscale, and therefore much closer to the ideals of the original Dark Brotherhood. He's with them because killing is his purpose, all he's ever known, not because he enjoys brutality like the werewolf does or desires glory like Astrid seems to.

 

[SonicWaffle]

reading this, his life is looking bleak.

If it's any consolation, it'll probably be bleak but at least it'll be short

Why must you make this so depressing Why couldn't you have just left it at the happy tale of boy performing a necromantic ritual to summon a guild of assassins to kill a woman who was mean to him?

Truly, a jolly tale for happy little folk. Perhaps an animated adaptation could run at Christmas?

In truth, it's because when I have time to let my mind wander, I tend to over-think stuff like this. About half this thread is now me spewing my mind-rubbish everywhere, bemoaning the decline of a fictional group of murderers. I probably ought to stop before I start to cry...

 

[SonicWaffle]

True. I was a little perturbed when I first entered the Sanctuary and found my new 'brothers' just joking around like a bunch of halfwits. They do give the impression that they're a group of manic cut-throats rather than cold, calculating assassins. An ancient society in it's final death throes, desperately recruiting common murderers in a last desperate attempt to postpone the inevitable.

Pretty much, which begs the question of why the Night Mother has waited so long to choose a Listener. Clearly the decline has been happening for a long time, and the Five Tenets were abandoned long ago.

Of course all that will change when my Khajiit proves himself as Listener and gets to run things his way...

Sadly I'm not sure how much change you can actually make. I haven't gotten to the end of the quest line yet, but it seems like pulling the Brotherhood back from the brink is pretty impossible.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

snip

Thank you so much for blowing my mind on the whole Skyrim Dark Brotherhood, it actually makes me see it in a new light, it may not feel any more enjoyable but at least now I can appreciate its story more.

I do think that the old vs new dynamic was very interesting though, as much as the citizens of Tamriel would deny it , the Dark Brotherhood is incredibly important to the grand scheme of things as they have the power to change history with a single slip of a knife .

At times i did somewhat support Astrids cause, I mean shes never really had any indication at all that there was a god like figure directing the brotherhood, and Cicero does somewhat embody all her hates and fears of the old way