Skyrim, level-scaling, and you.

[Onyx Oblivion]

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Oh right, I get it. Enemies all scale to your own level, so you get a challenge throughout. I can't yet decide if this is good or bad.

On one hand there is a nice challenge all the way through the game, so that makes it a bit more fun I guess. But on the other hand you can go anywhere at any level, without levelling up and kill whatever is in your way (still a challenge but can also leave you with a bit of disappointment because you feel as if your character still has the same amount of power as he/she/it did 6 levels ago.

At least that is what I think it is about, is there anything more than it than that? I'm sort of on the line with this one.

You summarized, perfectly, the main argument between the "for and against" enemy scaling crowds.

Generally, enemy scaling works really well for repeat playthroughs, when you already know your favorite dungeons and quests.

And having to grind up to a certain level of ability again, just makes repeat playthroughs a hassle at times.

This is the reason I played Oblivion so many times, with the full enemy scaling, there is nothing stopping me from running to my favorite haunts with a new character. I can head there right away, without being bothered by anything I can't handle. You still get a challenge from the boss enemies of dungeons.

The only real issue starts at higher levels of around 30. You combat skills cap at 100, and enemies will still get stronger with more health, even when you level through your Speechcraft skill, and you're still doing the same amount of damage.

For people who play one character, scaling can suck really bad and make the game into a wall that requires glitch/exploit abuse to make it through at higher levels.

 

[Flig]

As long as they keep the higher levelled dungeons more than a 40 sec jaunt away from the starting area, I'll be satisfied with a Fallout-ish scaling system.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It just don't feel right being presented with a giant world, told by the game to explore it, and then having certain areas fenced in until hours later.

The game sends mixed signals. Explore, but NOT HERE!

It just doesn't feel right becoming the Fighter's and Mages's guild Leader, being told to by the game that you became a hero and then having all the bandits wear almost the same gear (-enchants) that you worked your ass off for.

The game sends mixed signals. BE GOD, but everyone else WILL BE AS WELL.


I don't want everything to be fenced off, which has nice loot. Only a few areas with designated mobs (which will scale or not scale, depending on what kind of area it should be.)

Thing is, you DIDN'T work your ass off of for the Daedric Armor. It is merely leveled loot, unlike Morrowind, there is no set locations for any powerful artifacts.

You can just start at level 1, and then travel to the location of kick-ass armor.

If you had worked for the armor, then we'd be in agreement, but it's not like you ventured through an incredibly challenging gauntlet of trials for it.

 

[C95J]

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yeah, I know what you mean. + for multiple characters - for only 1 character, although on Oblivion I never made it to a high enough level anyway

This reminds me of Borderlands, I had completed the game, and started a second playthrough, but instead of facing enemies that were the same level as me, I went straight to the DLC, and got to a level 6-10 above the enemies I was forced to face to progress in the story. This made the game incredibly easy, but I was only getting 1XP per kill, so it was also tedious.

I guess this means I am for level scaling...

 

[Lost In The Void]

While this announcement makes me slightly happy, it still annoys me that there is level scaling. I'm against it, for the most part, but at least they're taking Fallout's system that worked fairly well, instead of Oblivion's that simply pissed me off. So mixed bag about this.

 

[Gudrests]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

if you level up...so do the monsters. which means if all you level is things you use in combat your fine,....but if you level something that has nothing to do with combat.,..the monsters level the combat which means they get wayyy ahead of you in the curve

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

I disagree with the comments on a complete lack of inaccessible areas (ala Morrowind), those areas had powerful armour and weapons in them, if you'd been able to get to them early on it would have been too easy to finish to game. It's nice to have something to aim towards. All major roads and towns and surrounding areas should logically be reasonably safe, but when you wander out into the wastes alone you should be prepared for anything, because if there are powerful monsters out there, that's where they'll be. Nor do I understand exactly what is meant about exploration, from a very early level it's possible to walk to the other end of Vvardenfell just not enter some of the ruined fortresses because they were too well guarded.

Leveling feels hollow without a "nemisis", without something to overcome that you couldn't before.

Substitute wastes for wilderness, badlands, anything that suits a lack of law and order.

 

[xI Master Z Ix]

I think fallout 3 did a good job with level scaling but that only worked cuz fallout 3 once you got the combat shotgun you were pretty much good the only way to find a better version of that you have to go out and find it your self and it helped that there weren't as many guns in fallout but in oblivion and most likely skyrim your gonna have a whole bunch of weapons to use unlike fallout 3 were you only had to versions of every weapon 1.the normal one 2.the uniqe one

 

[Diligent]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

My issue with the scaling levels in oblivion is that it is NOT a consistent challenge.
My experience with the game was that I was enjoying it so much, and taking my sweet ass time that by the time I got to around level 60, the main quest was simply impossible -period- with the character I tried to build...never did actually finish the game.
Meanwhile, my dad who is an extremely unskilled gamer whizzed his way past the main story and final boss at level 6.
Level fucking 6.

The fact that the game seemed to be punishing me for playing the game more seemed wrong. It's not that I wanted to be an overpowered bastard, on the contrary I love a good challenge. But when you level your character up so high that the game becomes irreversibly impossible, there is a problem (coming from a guy who has finished 2 playthroughs of Demon's Souls).

 

[StBishop]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

When you get at level 1, which was so easy you got bored of looking for murder fish so you went and did other stuff then because you want your journal to be neat you come back and one murder fish can almost one hit you... that's what's shit.

If I can punch something to death at level 1 I should be able to kill it at level 12, even if almost all my skill is archery, I should be able to use a sword to kill it.

That's what sucks about level scaling.

Also, I don't think I've ever encountered something that I couldn't handle at low levels in a game that level scales... I swear that the game only gets hard when it feels like you've gone away to get higher levels to make something easlier/faster. It's spiteful.

 

[Treeinthewoods]

As long as it doesn't impact my ability to wander out of the starting dungeon and start randomly exploring every place I see I won't mind. If they try to use enemies to rail me into a certain route until I level up I will be pissed.

TES isn't a traditional RPG, it is a sandbox game that thrives because of the freedom it gives the players in an immensely detailed land. They really don't even need much story because it gives me the ability to create my own unique story as I play and develop various characters.

 

[LordOrin]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

So you want the game to hold your hand through the whole way, instead? Not having level scaling like this would be like if you could defeat Kefka at level 1 in Final Fantasy VI or something. Strong enemies are strong, you are not. Since when did we gamers become such a bunch of wimps who can't take a little bit of a challenge? (Not saying that to YOU specifically, more a question in general since I've heard so many say the same thing in the past)

Ninja Gaiden for the NES is hard as hell and has no level scaling. It's not an issue of difficulty, it's an issue of feeling a sense of progression vs feeling railroaded.

Tangentially, grinding does not equate to difficulty, and is in fact a way for the player to reduce difficulty (though I haven't played much of Morrowind, so I'm not sure if there's a lot of actual grinding in that).

 

[spartandude]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

I have to say i love that, it gives a sense of acomplishment (which i will i have if i spelt that correctly), being able to go anywhere with out too much competition and being able to own as was the case in oblivion and to a lesser extent in fallout
i want to return to morrowind's system, that way i actually know whether i have actually become more powerful or not

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

Apparently, RPGs shouldn't give the player a consistent challenge, and you should be an over-powered bastard at the end game, or something. Grinding through tough spots should also totally be an option, too. And Bandits look silly in Glass Armor or whatever.

My issue with the scaling levels in oblivion is that it is NOT a consistent challenge.
My experience with the game was that I was enjoying it so much, and taking my sweet ass time that by the time I got to around level 60, the main quest was simply impossible -period- with the character I tried to build...never did actually finish the game.
Meanwhile, my dad who is an extremely unskilled gamer whizzed his way past the main story and final boss at level 6.
Level fucking 6.

The fact that the game seemed to be punishing me for playing the game more seemed wrong. It's not that I wanted to be an overpowered bastard, on the contrary I love a good challenge. But when you level your character up so high that the game becomes irreversibly impossible, there is a problem (coming from a guy who has finished 2 playthroughs of Demon's Souls).

Level 60?

No fucking wonder you got raped.

Oblivion isn't meant to function as a game past level 30. Your combat skills cap at 100.

 

[Weaver]

I don't really care how I level up, I just like to play the game. What do people not like about Level Scaling though??

The problem I had was that if you didn't focus on combat skills when you levelled up you would get outclassed by enemies very quickly. That wasn't a problem with the existence of level scaling though, more a poor implementation. In Fallout 3 it worked very well.

This was my problem as well. If you wanted to level alteration up, good luck when you run into super-bandits and their magical death arrows.

 

[jonnosferatu]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

Morrowind is an RPG known for its immersion and relative realism. The idea of the player being able to accidentally stumble into something they can't handle, or find artifact weapons that are utterly useless, seems to follow that theme pretty nicely.

If you have an issue with the aspects of the game that made it popular, mod them out and rest easy in the knowledge that there are modders who feel the same way you do and will continue to create mods for future titles.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

Morrowind is an RPG known for its immersion and relative realism. The idea of the player being able to accidentally stumble into something they can't handle, or find artifact weapons that are utterly useless, seems to follow that theme pretty nicely.

If you have an issue with the aspects of the game that made it popular, mod them out and rest easy in the knowledge that there are modders who feel the same way you do and will continue to create mods for future titles.

I've tried. But modding the Steam version is a fucking ***** to do. Something to do with file dates.

 

[jonnosferatu]

It'll do.

But if I feel rail-roaded to certain areas at any point...I'll fucking gut someone.

I want to be able to go anywhere in the world without running into something way out of my league.

Fucking Daedric Ruins in Morrowind.

Oh hey, you're level 3!

STORM ATRONACH, DAEDROTH.

That's not a challenge, that's a massacre. At that point, the player is likely carrying less than 10 healing potions, and iron weapons.

Or the Deathclaws in New Vegas at the start. Can be done, but not without a considerable hurting on the inventory and much reloading.

Morrowind is an RPG known for its immersion and relative realism. The idea of the player being able to accidentally stumble into something they can't handle, or find artifact weapons that are utterly useless, seems to follow that theme pretty nicely.

If you have an issue with the aspects of the game that made it popular, mod them out and rest easy in the knowledge that there are modders who feel the same way you do and will continue to create mods for future titles.

I've tried. But modding the Steam version is a fucking ***** to do. Something to do with file dates.

There should be resources somewhere on how to do it (they were mentioned in the Morrowind 2011 announcement, iirc), but I'm familiar with how horrible the mod support for the Steam one is. That's definitely a massive mark against Bethesda (and/or Valve, at least in relation to this) - one of the better traits for TES is the relative openness of the mod support.