Skyrim: Same button-mashing level system as before?

[The Gnome King]

Played Oblivion. Liked it; hated the leveling system. I should NOT have to sit in a corner blocking with my shield while a giant rat attacks me over and over in order to raise my "endurance" trait. I should NOT have to raise my intelligence, etc., by button-mashing low-level spells before I "level" my character. I hated that about Oblivion - if I started getting close to "leveling" and my "attributes" weren't maxed out to +5 each, especially in the first 10-20 levels or so, I felt compelled to sit there and "make the most out of my level" by mashing the "Minor detect life" spell or whatever... over... and over... and over...

So, is Skyrim going to be doing this as well? Have they released anything on the leveling system yet? Because, truth be told, that would be enough for me to pass on Skyrim until it's on sale through Steam as a GOTY edition or something. I'm not paying for a game when it comes out just to be frustrated like that again, and I might never pick it up at all.

If, however, they fixed the leveling system so that you don't have to "manage" how quickly you level to gain attribute points based on minor/major skills, I'd be happy to play it.

The leveling system was just awful. It ruined a perfectly wonderful CRPG for me.

 

[Zantos]

I found the levelling system to work really well, it blended almost seamlessly into gameplay for me with the exception of a few buggy little pieces. It just sounds like you were trying to turn it into some sort of grindfest. I'm hoping they debug, but mostly keep the oblivion levelling system.

To set some of your fears to reast they're ditching major and minor attributes, and theres no real level cap, so it should just work in on a "You're using spells ergo getting better at them" kind of level.

 

[Radoh]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

 

[Woodsey]

They've tweaked it, but you're still learning by doing. Not in quite the same way though. Just Google it, there's been quite a lot of stuff on it.

And please don't tell me the C I've seen people keep putting in front of RPG stands for "combat".

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

And please don't tell me the C I've seen people keep putting in front of RPG stands for "combat".

It stands for computer, I believe. Which is arrogant, imo.

 

[drizztmainsword]

Yeah? you were playing the game wrong.

When I played, I would essentially ignore the "you can level up dialog" until I actually found a bed. This could take weeks. By the time I was actually ready to level, any of the stats I was actually interested in increasing (because I used them a lot) were at the +5 mark.

Keep in mind, that I wasn't ignoring the level up because I wanted better stats. I was ignoring the level up because finding a bed would take me away from whatever adventure I was currently on.

What you were doing is referred to as "munchkining" and is one of the many forms of metagaming, the bane of any role-playing experience. You're better off taking the lower numbers and forming a real narrative.

 

[Woodsey]

And please don't tell me the C I've seen people keep putting in front of RPG stands for "combat".

It stands for computer, I believe. Which is arrogant, imo.

Pointless, but why arrogant?

Yeah? you were playing the game wrong.

When I played, I would essentially ignore the "you can level up dialog" until I actually found a bed. This could take weeks. By the time I was actually ready to level, any of the stats I was actually interested in increasing (because I used them a lot) were at the +5 mark.

Keep in mind, that I wasn't ignoring the level up because I wanted better stats. I was ignoring the level up because finding a bed would take me away from whatever adventure I was currently on.

What you were doing is referred to as "munchkining" and is one of the many forms of metagaming, the bane of any role-playing experience. You're better off taking the lower numbers and forming a real narrative.

Also: this.

The game's not built to be a grind-fest, don't treat it as such.

 

[emptyother]

Oblivion had the problem with the leveling enemies. With the result that you had to get the maximum out of every level, and you HAD to have some focus on combat-skills, or else the whole world would get more effective than you at fighting.
Morrowind had the same problem but with no leveling enemies (you fought the same cliff-racers still at level EPIC) so there was no need to rush your combat skills.

I pray to the gaming gods that they dont do the same mistake in Skyrim. They said they had learned.

 

[The Gnome King]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

 

[IamSofaKingRaw]

They are changing it

http://www.fragworld.org/frag/general/skyrim-leveling-and-skills-systems-clarified.html

I agree about the stupid leveling system where you had to spam low level spells over and over just to level in that area. Its much simpler and smarter the way the are making it for Skyrim.

 

[The Gnome King]

Yeah? you were playing the game wrong.

When I played, I would essentially ignore the "you can level up dialog" until I actually found a bed. This could take weeks. By the time I was actually ready to level, any of the stats I was actually interested in increasing (because I used them a lot) were at the +5 mark.

Keep in mind, that I wasn't ignoring the level up because I wanted better stats. I was ignoring the level up because finding a bed would take me away from whatever adventure I was currently on.

What you were doing is referred to as "munchkining" and is one of the many forms of metagaming, the bane of any role-playing experience. You're better off taking the lower numbers and forming a real narrative.

Even if you found a bed, the way leveling worked was that it would level you multiple times based on what you did PER EACH LEVEL - so when I tried playing as you did I might find that I had gained, say, 4-6 levels but only gained 2-3 attribute points per level.

Even *leveling* guides for Oblivion - all over the internet - caution against this.

 

[The Gnome King]

They are changing it

http://www.fragworld.org/frag/general/skyrim-leveling-and-skills-systems-clarified.html

I agree about the stupid leveling system where you had to spam low level spells over and over just to level in that area. Its much simpler and smarter the way the are making it for Skyrim.

Oh thank you for providing that. I can rest easy now.

I really wanted to play Skyrim without that BS.

 

[Radoh]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Well then the grind isn't the problem, it's a symptom. You were made to grind because of the level-scaling, something that I didn't like at all. Punish me for doing well in the game? Fine, I'll beat the game on level 1 and show you who's boss.

 

[The Gnome King]

Oblivion had the problem with the leveling enemies. With the result that you had to get the maximum out of every level, and you HAD to have some focus on combat-skills, or else the whole world would get more effective than you at fighting.
Morrowind had the same problem but with no leveling enemies (you fought the same cliff-racers still at level EPIC) so there was no need to rush your combat skills.

I pray to the gaming gods that they dont do the same mistake in Skyrim. They said they had learned.

Exactly. You *couldn't* simply "play through" if, say, you were a speech/security/alchemy specialist because you wouldn't gain the combat skills necessary (from doing idiotic things like raising "block" and "heavy armor" by letting critters hit you) to kill things at level.

To all these people who just "relaxed and played the game as they wanted" I have to wonder; did you just turn the difficulty slider all the way down? Because without combat skills things started getting *very* dicey at level 10ish.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

*snip*

Stop min/max'ing so damn much. Oblivion is quite simple to be effective. In. Really, just use skills naturally as you wander, and try and only focus on 2/3 key stats. Even with just +2/3, you'll hit 100 by 25, assuming your race fits your playstyle.

Unless you are exploiting Alchemy to make money quickly via dozens of Restore Fatigue potions, you likely won't level way too fast. They actually did a pretty job of it, which I realized after 4,000 hours of the bloody thing. UNMODDED.

Sure, not EVERYTHING works in Oblivion without grinding. But a hell-uv-a-lot does work.

 

[The Gnome King]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Well then the grind isn't the problem, it's a symptom. You were made to grind because of the level-scaling, something that I didn't like at all. Punish me for doing well in the game? Fine, I'll beat the game on level 1 and show you who's boss.

Erm, it looks like they changed it because enough people had an issue with it. It wasn't just me.

This link was helpful in the extreme:

http://www.fragworld.org/frag/general/skyrim-leveling-and-skills-systems-clarified.html

 

[Zantos]

Was I the only person that liked level scaling? It meant they always had some good equipment. I hated it in Fallout where you still got attacked by the fiends or raiders or whatever that were so low levelled with such poor equipment I made a loss simply by shooting them.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

And please don't tell me the C I've seen people keep putting in front of RPG stands for "combat".

It stands for computer, I believe. Which is arrogant, imo.

Pointless, but why arrogant?

It heavily implies that most console RPGs aren't RPGs, and that merely being on a console makes them inferior.

Hell, I played Dragon Age 1 on a console, and the combat was basically EQUALLY strategic as the PC version. We did lack Move To Point and the isometric camera, though. But the rest of the strategic options were still there. And move to point didn't matter too much, either, since you can set AIs to stay at range.

 

[The Gnome King]

*snip*

Stop min/max'ing so damn much. Oblivion is quite simple to be effective. In. Really, just use skills naturally as you wander, and try and only focus on 2/3 key stats. Even with just +2/3, you'll hit 100 by 25, assuming your race fits your playstyle.

Unless you are exploiting Alchemy to make money quickly via dozens of Restore Fatigue potions, you likely won't level way too fast. They actually did a pretty job of it, which I realized after 4,000 hours of the bloody thing. UNMODDED.

Sure, not EVERYTHING works in Oblivion without grinding. But a hell-uv-a-lot does work.

The leveling ruined it for me. It also, apparently, was a huge concern for the developers - thankfully.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/20-best-things-about-skyrim/

Pretty good link, see #9 - they did address most of my concerns.