Skyrim: Same button-mashing level system as before?

[Gill Kaiser]

They are changing it

http://www.fragworld.org/frag/general/skyrim-leveling-and-skills-systems-clarified.html

I agree about the stupid leveling system where you had to spam low level spells over and over just to level in that area. Its much simpler and smarter the way the are making it for Skyrim.

Thanks for showing this, I am now not getting Skyrim.
What I loved about Morrowind was that you used the skills you needed and got lvls from them, and those skills got better. Now it is going to be generic RPG skill lvling.

What? If anything, the new system is MORE like that. Now it's ENTIRELY based on the skills you use getting better.

 

[crimsontide57]

I feel like an arse agreeing but i really did hate the leveling system. mainly because i really didnt see the point in alot of the skills. i mean if athletics was one of your main skills have fun leveling up. and if you were a tank like i was then the only way to level up was dungeon diving. and if you WERE specialized to combat it was way to hard to go back and do really fun thigns like say the thieves gild quests. i felt forced to start a new game with a thief because my level 25 custom-class tank with maxed strength, endurance and speed wasnt capeable of robbing a farmhouse. it just felt like i was caged, like my class limited me to a certain type of 'lifestyle' in the game. im glad that classes are going to be a non-issue and i do hope that major and minor skills are getting out of here... but thats just my opinion

 

[Kalabrikan]

Morrowind had a similar system to this; all you needed to do to level up was continuously cast a spell.

 

[Kinguendo]

No, I am not stating I know anything about your interests because I don't know which ones make the game easier. For all I know they're just mine but instead of destruction magic you took conjureror (I AM GIVING AN EXAMPLE, I AM NOT STATING YOU TOOK CONJURATION MAGIC)

Wrong again, there is just as much chance as me having played EXACTLY the same classes as you. Your only problem is that I found it easier than you and you cant accept that.

And I know as you said "For all I know" this time.

If you're playing it the same way as I was a single zombie takes 20 minutes to defeat. Here's the first assumption I will state about your interest ,I guarantee you that you didn't. You weren't fighting invincible walls of bricks as literally every enemy.

No, you are right... I wasnt because, as I said, I dont suck at Oblivion. Basic knowledge of the game would be included in that little bundle, you would think that after 20 minutes you might try something else. This pretence that it takes no skill, its all about what you pick at the beginning and if you pick Destruction magic zombies become invincible... its just not true.Picking conjuration instead of destruction magic wouldnt make zombies any easier to kill so just stop.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

The fact that monsters and other enemies level up at the same time as your character leads to the "leveling problem". If you make poor choices in leveling up, your character will become weaker than the monsters as your level progresses.

But the key phrase there is the one I bolded. There is no problem if you play your class correctly. Want to survive as a mage? Use the spells within the schools you want to become godly in. Want to survive as a warrior? Choose the skills you want to use as a warrior, i.e. blade, block and heavy/light armour.

There's no 'leveling issue' if you play to your classes strength. The problem refers to some skills levelling far too quickly and at the same time naturally (Athletics, Acrobatics, Alchemy and Mercantile) whilst other are much slower (Marksman, Security, Sneak). The system wasn't bad, the implementation was. Also a lot of contributors of the UESP are rather elitist and condescending; so their articles can come across as if being written for 'peasants'.

Raising Marksman by hitting targets with your bow and arrow makes sense. Raising Alchemy by creating a lot of potions makes sense. On one hand I'm quite happy that they've 'streamlined' (is surprised by lack of PC crowd flooding in to call 'dumbing down') the skill system; on the other I'm apprehensive; I hope this doesn't turn Skyrim into a joke for its lack of difficulty and challenge.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

They did say they were tweaking the levelling system somewhere because they were unhappy with how if you levelled up from athletics (ie, you liked to push the run button everywhere) You would basically be punished because your combat skills would be behind the creatures that the game spawned for you.

I think I saw it in one of the game informer articles or vids. Was a little while ago now. But I do remeber them saying they were looking at it so I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[mike1921]

No, I am not stating I know anything about your interests because I don't know which ones make the game easier. For all I know they're just mine but instead of destruction magic you took conjureror (I AM GIVING AN EXAMPLE, I AM NOT STATING YOU TOOK CONJURATION MAGIC)

Wrong again, there is just as much chance as me having played EXACTLY the same classes as you. Your only problem is that I found it easier than you and you cant accept that.

And I know as you said "For all I know" this time.

If you're playing it the same way as I was a single zombie takes 20 minutes to defeat. Here's the first assumption I will state about your interest ,I guarantee you that you didn't. You weren't fighting invincible walls of bricks as literally every enemy.

No, you are right... I wasnt because, as I said, I dont suck at Oblivion. Basic knowledge of the game would be included in that little bundle, you would think that after 20 minutes you might try something else. This pretence that it takes no skill, its all about what you pick at the beginning and if you pick Destruction magic zombies become invincible... its just not true.Picking conjuration instead of destruction magic wouldnt make zombies any easier to kill so just stop.

No I confirmed it because you confirmed by lack of rejection that it didn't take you 10 minutes to kill a fucking zombie. You did not play like me

No, you are right... I wasnt because, as I said, I dont suck at Oblivion. Basic knowledge of the game would be included in that little bundle, you would think that after 20 minutes you might try something else. This pretence that it takes no skill, its all about what you pick at the beginning and if you pick Destruction magic zombies become invincible... its just not true.Picking conjuration instead of destruction magic wouldnt make zombies any easier to kill so just stop.

I feel like I'm talking to a fucking kindergartener.

No, it's not all about what you pick at the beginning it's also what you choose to rank. Stop with the assumptions.

I never said conjuration or destruction don't work against zombies. You may LEVEL YOUR STATS better if you choose conjuration instead of destruction. Destruction magic can be an instant win switch but that doesn't mean your stats won't level like shit. Stop assuming that I'm talking about one skill being better than another, I'm talking about combinations of skills and combinations of the way you can play the game. A single skill being better against certain enemies is irrelevant.

Where's the skill involved in leveling decently? It's either by chance you end up leveled decent (plenty of people think the leveling is bullshit. I am not alone. You're not going to tell me). The only thing that can be considered a skill in this game is defeating enemies and I do that extremely well for someone who takes 500 hits to take down a zombie. And if you actually know how the leveling system works and decide to grind certain skills you will turn out extremely over leveled. It's hardly a skill if anyone who looks at a guide explaining how the leveling system works can do it and a lot of people do it without trying.

I just played the game doing whatever I wanted, I should be able to do that and as long as I'm not reaching every level by ranking persuade or mercantile I shouldn't become so underleveled that everything is a fucking wall. Also there shouldn't be benefits to selecting major skills you're not going to use. If you never use your major skills you will be over powered.

 

[Dogstile]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Then swallow your pride and tweak the difficulty. I had it down roughly at 25%. Game was and still is amazingly fun.

Although I don't advise leveling up past level 4 anyway. The game doesn't level up NPC's

 

[Saelune]

Was I the only person that liked level scaling? It meant they always had some good equipment. I hated it in Fallout where you still got attacked by the fiends or raiders or whatever that were so low levelled with such poor equipment I made a loss simply by shooting them.

Well, I like roleplaying, and it's bloody hard to roleplay if at level 10 all the rad roaches, mirelurks and raiders have gone extinct and all been replaced by legions upon legions of elite enclave stormtroopers.

How the hell am I supposed to be immersed in an environment where whole sections of the fauna vanish instantly once I take a nap?!

This is one reason I prefer Morrowind. Everything was pre-set. That means you can be lvl 1 and fight things upwards of lvl 20, or vice versa. Really, I would prefer a mix. Perhaps the deeper into the wilderness lies more powerful enemies compaired to the cave on the outskirt of town that gets cleared regularly.
I like dungeons refilling, but I was not a fan of the scaling.

As for the leveling, I like it because it is the closest to real. Other games, you can fight with a sword only, then somehow learn new spells....

 

[thenoblitt]

i enjoyed it very much, also if you didnt want to level you could just not sleep in a bed, but if you worked on your skills you leveled up fairly simple and effective

 

[The Gnome King]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Then swallow your pride and tweak the difficulty. I had it down roughly at 25%. Game was and still is amazingly fun.

Although I don't advise leveling up past level 4 anyway. The game doesn't level up NPC's

How about instead of playing a game that makes me "swallow my pride" they just come out with a leveling system that doesn't penalize me for using the skills I want - like Alchemy - "too much" causing me to level "too fast" while STILL giving me some rewards for leveling and progressing in the game?

Oh, wait. They did that and they're releasing it this year; I think they're calling it "Skyrim" - reason they changed it is because of all the people who HATED THE LEVELING SYSTEM IN OBLIVION AND OTHER TES GAMES.

 

[mike1921]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Then swallow your pride and tweak the difficulty. I had it down roughly at 25%. Game was and still is amazingly fun.

Although I don't advise leveling up past level 4 anyway. The game doesn't level up NPC's

How about instead of playing a game that makes me "swallow my pride" they just come out with a leveling system that doesn't penalize me for using the skills I want - like Alchemy - "too much" causing me to level "too fast" while STILL giving me some rewards for leveling and progressing in the game?

Oh, wait. They did that and they're releasing it this year; I think they're calling it "Skyrim" - reason they changed it is because of all the people who HATED THE LEVELING SYSTEM IN OBLIVION AND OTHER TES GAMES.

You know they already have a game like that. Bethesda's fallout 3 (and by extension new vegas). At the very least if you end up underleveled in fallout it's solely because you selected the wrong things at the level up screen and not that you didn't grind the right things. I can spend my whole level hacking computers and never using another skill and then when I level up use all my points on explosives. maybe not realistic but at least I'm not punished for doing what I want.

Also, the link ( http://www.fragworld.org/frag/general/skyrim-leveling-and-skills-systems-clarified.html ) suggests that there is no athletics skill (since no one makes a character that doesn't run). I do hope there is some form of speed change. It's pretty cool getting faster the more you play the game.

 

[Dogstile]

It sounds like you intentionally made it into a grind fest. That system has been in TES for some time now, I doubt it will be changing in Skyrim, though I'm not going to rule it out after seeing the revamped skill system.

I wanted to maximize my attributes so at level 10 I wasn't getting creamed by other level 10 critters. I tried playing through on normal difficulty just leveling the way I liked and I found that certain things I used - alchemy, for example - could NOT be major skills because they caused me to level much, much too fast.

Then swallow your pride and tweak the difficulty. I had it down roughly at 25%. Game was and still is amazingly fun.

Although I don't advise leveling up past level 4 anyway. The game doesn't level up NPC's

How about instead of playing a game that makes me "swallow my pride" they just come out with a leveling system that doesn't penalize me for using the skills I want - like Alchemy - "too much" causing me to level "too fast" while STILL giving me some rewards for leveling and progressing in the game?

Oh, wait. They did that and they're releasing it this year; I think they're calling it "Skyrim" - reason they changed it is because of all the people who HATED THE LEVELING SYSTEM IN OBLIVION AND OTHER TES GAMES.

I would come up with a brilliant counterpoint, but its my birthday so I cannot be arsed.

GOOD DAY SIR

 

[Kinguendo]

No I confirmed it because you confirmed by lack of rejection that it didn't take you 10 minutes to kill a fucking zombie. You did not play like me

No, I said it didnt take me that long to kill anything... and I also explained my position, and you are still completely disregarding the obvious answer. I am better than you at Oblivion, simple. We could have the exact same skills and levelled the exact same way and it doesnt mean our games will be the same, this is rather basic.

I feel like I'm talking to a fucking kindergartener.

Yes, we are all well aware of your delusional arrogance.

No, it's not all about what you pick at the beginning it's also what you choose to rank. Stop with the assumptions.

I never said conjuration or destruction don't work against zombies. You may LEVEL YOUR STATS better if you choose conjuration instead of destruction. Destruction magic can be an instant win switch but that doesn't mean your stats won't level like shit. Stop assuming that I'm talking about one skill being better than another, I'm talking about combinations of skills and combinations of the way you can play the game. A single skill being better against certain enemies is irrelevant.

Where's the skill involved in leveling decently? It's either by chance you end up leveled decent (plenty of people think the leveling is bullshit. I am not alone. You're not going to tell me). The only thing that can be considered a skill in this game is defeating enemies and I do that extremely well for someone who takes 500 hits to take down a zombie. And if you actually know how the leveling system works and decide to grind certain skills you will turn out extremely over leveled. It's hardly a skill if anyone who looks at a guide explaining how the leveling system works can do it and a lot of people do it without trying.

I just played the game doing whatever I wanted, I should be able to do that and as long as I'm not reaching every level by ranking persuade or mercantile I shouldn't become so underleveled that everything is a fucking wall. Also there shouldn't be benefits to selecting major skills you're not going to use. If you never use your major skills you will be over powered.

Yes, the amount of intelligence I have (that is the stat increased by conjuration and it governs the amount of magicka you have) will REALLY make it easier to kill every enemy... it will stop zombies being "invinsible walls" and make them defeatable in about 15 seconds. Because everyone knows that the amount of magicka does... oh wait, no. Having magicka doesnt actually effect your combat unless you are using high level spells, of which they are not needed to dispatch zombies in seconds.

"A single skill being better against certain enemies is irrelevant" - Odd, because destruction magic is actually effective against EVERY enemy.

And like I have already said, I have played with levelling extremely efficiently and levelling poorly. Neither time did I struggle in such a way that made any enemy as difficult as you are crying about. In fact I have played a class that had absolutely NO skill with any armour (a significant disadvatange, wouldnt you say?) and still didnt struggle as you claim to have done. Like I said, SKILL.

 

[mike1921]

No I confirmed it because you confirmed by lack of rejection that it didn't take you 10 minutes to kill a fucking zombie. You did not play like me

No, I said it didnt take me that long to kill anything... and I also explained my position, and you are still completely disregarding the obvious answer. I am better than you at Oblivion, simple. We could have the exact same skills and levelled the exact same way and it doesnt mean our games will be the same, this is rather basic.

Yes it is, but I know if we leveled the exact same way it would come across. No one could have a character leveled as badly as mine and not notice. No one, not even someone like you is retarded enough to not notice. I would sooner believe that you , fully conscience , got cancer, had chemotherapy, it came back, and then you had chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant and didn't believe it.

Yes, the amount of intelligence I have (that is the stat increased by conjuration and it governs the amount of magicka you have) will REALLY make it easier to kill every enemy... it will stop zombies being "invinsible walls" and make them defeatable in about 15 seconds. Because everyone knows that the amount of magicka does... oh wait, no. Having magicka doesnt actually effect your combat unless you are using high level spells, of which they are not needed to dispatch zombies in seconds.

Oh really? Intelligence makes magic more effective? Next you're going to tell me strength makes physical attacks stronger.

"A single skill being better against certain enemies is irrelevant" - Odd, because destrution magic is actually effective against EVERY enemy.

Ok, I should of made this clearer. HOW GOOD A SKILL IS, TAKING LEVELING OUT OF ACCOUNT, PERIOD, IS IRRELEVANT UNLESS IT'S SO OVERPOWERED THAT LEVELING DOESN'T MATTER

And like I have already said, I have played with levelling extremely efficiently and levelling poorly. Neither time did I struggle in such a way that made any enemy as difficult as you are crying about. In fact I have played a class that had absolutely NO skill with any armour (a significant disadvatange, wouldnt you say?) and still didnt struggle as you claim to have done. Like I said, SKILL.

No, it really isn't. You sacrifice defense for attack. Perfectly reasonable. I don't know how you made the skill 0 as opposed to something like 10 or 15 but whatever.

Also, you can level poorly but not level as poorly as someone else.

 

[DustyDrB]

Was I the only person that liked level scaling? It meant they always had some good equipment. I hated it in Fallout where you still got attacked by the fiends or raiders or whatever that were so low levelled with such poor equipment I made a loss simply by shooting them.

Well, I like roleplaying, and it's bloody hard to roleplay if at level 10 all the rad roaches, mirelurks and raiders have gone extinct and all been replaced by legions upon legions of elite enclave stormtroopers.

How the hell am I supposed to be immersed in an environment where whole sections of the fauna vanish instantly once I take a nap?!

Agreed. It makes the world feel artificial. I loved in New Vegas that there were Deathclaws, Cazadores, and Giant Radscorpions from the get-go. It made the world feel like one that was around long before I came into the scene.

 

[Diablo2000]

SO you turned it into a grindfest because you wanted all 5s every level and you blame the game? You should be thankful you got that choice.

I turned it into a "grindfest" because pretty much every leveling guide out there warned about the "level scaling" of creatures and warned that on normal difficulty if you did NOT maximize certain attributes you would be killed, easily, by equal level monsters.

I found this to be true, so I started "grinding" those 5 attribute points and it worked for me.

It looks like in Skyrim this won't be an issue because they fixed the "grinding" problem - which other people - many, many other people - have complained about. It wasn't just This Gnome.

It was enough of an issue that the developers revamped the entire system.

That why I didn't enter in any of those, I just did most of my sidequest right and finish the game without having need to griding...