Skyrim's combat and the action RPG genre

Recommended Videos

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
801
0
0
Anthraxus said:
Scow2 said:
Anthraxus said:
Scow2 said:
Actually... I find the passive improvement of commonly-used abilities to be the best skill system ever seen in an RPG.

I'm not sure what "Action-RPGs" have a better combat system than Skyrim's
Take your pick ?
It could be that I don't know what an Action-RPG is. None of the Diablo Clones come close, nor do any MMORPGS, or games like Two Worlds, Kingdoms of Amalur, The Witcher, and Previous TES games.

It could just be that Skyrim plays awesome on the Gamepad and sucks on Keyboard+Mouse.
Yea,it does sound like you don't know what an ARPG is.

I would compare Skyrim's combat to other action rpgs like Witcher 2, Amalur, Dark/Demon Souls, Dark Messiah, Gothic games (or even action games for that matter)... NOT loot whoring games like Diablow or MMO type gameplay.
I've... not been impressed by Dark Messiah, missed out on Demon Souls, Found Dark Souls to be annoyingly clunky, convoluted and overall shitty, haven't had a chance to play the Witcher 2 yet (Because the first game was absolute shit), and grew bored of the Gothic games as well.

So yeah, I'm not sure what ARPGs have "Good" combat.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
801
0
0
Anthraxus said:
Scow2 said:
Anthraxus said:
Scow2 said:
Anthraxus said:
Scow2 said:
Actually... I find the passive improvement of commonly-used abilities to be the best skill system ever seen in an RPG.

I'm not sure what "Action-RPGs" have a better combat system than Skyrim's
Take your pick ?
It could be that I don't know what an Action-RPG is. None of the Diablo Clones come close, nor do any MMORPGS, or games like Two Worlds, Kingdoms of Amalur, The Witcher, and Previous TES games.

It could just be that Skyrim plays awesome on the Gamepad and sucks on Keyboard+Mouse.
Yea,it does sound like you don't know what an ARPG is.

I would compare Skyrim's combat to other action rpgs like Witcher 2, Amalur, Dark/Demon Souls, Dark Messiah, Gothic games (or even action games for that matter)... NOT loot whoring games like Diablow or MMO type gameplay.
I've... not been impressed by Dark Messiah, missed out on Demon Souls, Found Dark Souls to be annoyingly clunky, convoluted and overall shitty, haven't had a chance to play the Witcher 2 yet (Because the first game was absolute shit), and grew bored of the Gothic games as well.

So yeah, I'm not sure what ARPGs have "Good" combat.
Your the first person I've EVER heard say they think Skyrim has better combat than the Souls games. Or that Skyrim is the best the genre has to offer, as far as combat goes. There's always a first though !

Even the biggest ES fans admit that combat isn't exactly the strength of the games.
I'm not saying the combat system's perfect, or even good. I'm just saying that everything else out there manages to be worse
 

Ragsnstitches

New member
Dec 2, 2009
1,871
0
0
TizzytheTormentor said:
I loved Skyrims combat, people are just hard to please these days (patiently awaiting news about the upcoming crossbow)
Really REALLY hope that this pans out... and oh Lord have mercy it they make it dual wieldable (would be massively OP, but I'd love a rogue character with a wrist/hand fired crossbow and longsword combo).



Regular crossbows will be just as welcome though.

As for Skyrims melee? Relative to other games with melee orientation, it's pretty basic, though not unbearable. Can get a bit monotonous.

But relative to the overall package I can't complain, I've sunk many blades, axes and warhammers into the flesh of many a raider and I still feel satisfied with it. Because I mix my classes (like my favoured Spellsword) I find the ability to switch combat techniques on the fly to be very good at staving off monotony.

Anthraxus said:
TizzytheTormentor said:
I loved Skyrims combat, people are just hard to please these days (patiently awaiting news about the upcoming crossbow)
Or some ppl could be very easy to please. I guess it just depends on your experience with other games.
Actually, i'd say it's a bit a both here. While it's a fair comparison between the witcher 2 and Skyrim in that we have one series that went from shitty combat to good combat within 2 games, and another that gradually improved a clunky system over multiple releases, but still hasn't reached any remarkable standard, we seem to be forgetting how awful EVERYTHING was in vanilla Oblivion and morrowind (i swear people confuse mods with actual content from those games). The benefit of attributes aside, magic and stealth classes were overwhelmingly boring and ranged combat in general was a remarkably dull affair (worse then the melee). The only highlight was how satisfying a hunting simulator Oblivion was... I loved killing bambee over and over again.

Skyrim vastly improved stealth and Magic, to make them enticing as pure classes rather then mixing classes just to avoid death by boredom. I have never played more then a couple of hours as a pure mage in any TES other then skyrim (which has clocked 80+ hours as a pure mage). While it's not the best on offer in comparison to some other games, it is vastly more satisfying. It's also the first TES where I would even consider a pure archer role.

But not only that, Melee WAS improved, just that it still feels off ever so slightly and lacks any great variety. Considering how the other classes got such massive improvements, I can't help but feel somewhat lenient towards the imperfect melee. Fingers crossed TES6 (or maybe future patches?) get a tighter and more satisfying formula brewing.
 

Melondrupe

New member
Jan 12, 2012
45
0
0
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Disclaimer:I'm saying this as someone who hated the combat of Oblivion and is waiting for Skyrim to come down significantly in price before I buy it.

The Melee combat in Dead Island and King's Field (Well, the enemies at least react to hits in King's Field) flows quite nicely compared to Oblivion and Might&Magic: Dark Messiah. Making judgement calls as to distance never was a problem. Honestly I was shocked that Oblivion, a critically acclaimed game, seemed to get a free pass over its downright utterly inferior combat that made me cringe every time I had to get into a battle; eventually had to turn my mind off and run on auto-pilot in order to keep myself playing it. The fact that it seemed more of a effective strategy to just run up to an enemy and hammer away was just pathetic from my experience.

One of the major problems with Oblivion was that enemies don't react to a basic attack and only occasionally react to a power attack. The fact that you could run up to an archer, hit them and have them keep the bow fully drawn was rather aggravating. In Skyrim from what I've seen in playthroughs (waiting until the Game of the Year or Complete edition of Skyrim comes out and I can buy for five bucks off of steam, so I won't play it until 2017), that archer problem still exists. From what I've seen, the only improvement to combat was that enemies seemed to block less.

While I don't enjoy playing Mount and Blade in first person and do not believe it's better than Dead Island, it doesn't suffer from any of the problems that make playing Oblivion a chore and makes the idea of paying any good amount of money for Skyrim unappealing. When you hit an archer in Mount&Blade, they react and have to redraw (Crossbows only if the shooter didn't set the bolt in time). Compared to Oblivion, weapons in Mount and Blade actually feel as if they react to hitting; unlike in Oblivion which seemed as if one was hitting the air unless an enemy blocked the attack. Skyrim looks to suffer from this swinging and not hitting what's in front of you.
 

Kotaro

Desdinova's Successor
Feb 3, 2009
794
0
0
Skyrim's combat is just passable for me. Not bad, but not good. I can deal with it, though, as it's far better than that of Morrowind or Oblivion.
 

Burst6

New member
Mar 16, 2009
916
0
0
Ive been thinking about skyrim's combat and comparing it to other action RPGs and i think i know what's wrong with it.

4 things

1) First person does not make for a good action RPG.

It's very hard to judge distance. Even in games that do it right (like Dark Messiah) Tend to be worse off than 3rd person ARPGs. First person is made really for ranged combat. Ok, so say you play skyrim in 3rd person, there's more problems coming.

2) hitboxes.

A hitbox is an invisible box that appears for a fraction of a second when you attack. If your weapons damage hitbox touches the enemies health hitbox, they lose health.

Any good ARPG needs good hitboxes. If you do a wide horizontal swing with a greatsword it should hit everything in an area in an arc in front of you. Skyrim doesn't have this. There's only 1 melee attack in the game that lets you hit more than 1 enemy, and that's late in the game and is really annoying to use. Every other attack has the same effect as a gun with really short range. You only hit what you aim at. If you replace all melee weapons with a short ranged chargeable laser the gameplay won't change at all.

3) Lack of hitstun.

This is what people mean when attacks have no weight. Most action RPG's incorporate hitstun, meaning if something gets hit they are stunned for a split second. Skyrim does have this, but it's useless. Even small enemies take a lot of hits to get hitstunned, and even then the hitstun doesn't last long enough. If you beat on a dragon long enough to actually stun it it will stop what it's doing, but it will continue immediately. In a lot of good action RPGs hitstun either lasts long enough to let you get a few hits in, or lets you refresh that hitstun with every successive attack.

4) The movement.

It's very unpolished. You can move while attacking and the power attacks seem like they move you way too much. It takes away a feeling of weight in the game when you feel like your character is floating above the ground, and the fact that enemies can move while attacking too means that there is no dodging. The enemy has his short-ranged laser pointed at you constantly. That means if he swings and you dodge to the side you will still get hit because he turns around with you.


So you can't avoid enemy attacks and counterattack because enemies aim for you instantly and all attacks have horrible hitboxes. You can't hitstun them at all meaning if you hit an enemy chances are they'll hit you too. And finally it's difficult to judge range (even in 3rd person) because you don't actually know where you're hitting (thanks in part to the hitbox problem).

So all you can do with melee is run up to them and have a swinging competition.
 

Animyr

New member
Jan 11, 2011
385
0
0
I don't play many RPGs but I thought it was fine. Not anything to write home about, but still fun and suitably challenging. At least for me.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
801
0
0
Burst6 said:
Hmm... I've never had any of these problems.

1. I've never had depth problems, so meh.

2. I've not had any problem with hitboxes... The "One attack, one target" thing is effective - you don't have enough power behind the swing to hit more than one foe without that one special perk. Doesn't bother me.

3.I'm glad the game isn't so horrible about Stunlocking opponents, and the only enemies that I've had problems with a lack of Hitstun against were Bears and Dragons. Other enemies generally do react to the impact.

4. I'm glad that combat doesn't lock your movement in Skyrim. There are still plenty of opportunities to dodge attacks, but it's not as easy or stupid as it is in other games (Such as Dark Soul's Rollolspam. Seriously, I hate excessive combat rolling in games. It looks retarded)
 

Burst6

New member
Mar 16, 2009
916
0
0
Scow2 said:
1. I've never had depth problems, so meh.

2. I've not had any problem with hitboxes... The "One attack, one target" thing is effective - you don't have enough power behind the swing to hit more than one foe without that one special perk. Doesn't bother me.

3.I'm glad the game isn't so horrible about Stunlocking opponents, and the only enemies that I've had problems with a lack of Hitstun against were Bears and Dragons. Other enemies generally do react to the impact.

4. I'm glad that combat doesn't lock your movement in Skyrim. There are still plenty of opportunities to dodge attacks, but it's not as easy or stupid as it is in other games (Such as Dark Soul's Rollolspam. Seriously, I hate excessive combat rolling in games. It looks retarded)
1) That's probably because there's no need to judge depth in skyrim. Most of the melee combat is about running in close and trading blows until they die.

2) Yeah but let's say you swing your weapon and your animation shows a wide arc, but you aim to the side of your enemy. Even then it doesn't hit. It's not efficient, if the game wants to convey the idea of you not being able to hit more than 1 enemy at a time they would add more animations to show you.

3) Really? Generally there's no way to ensure that i can get in without getting hit. In good combat games you wait for an opening and then go in and punish them. This adds a lot of strategy to the game. In Skyrim i can never do this because even if the enemy misses a big attack by the time I'm ready to counterattack them they've recovered and are ready to hit me back. Even if i did a shield bash (which stunned everything), they would recover before i could swing my sword.

4) Tell me how were you able to dodge? The only thing i could do to avoid getting hit is weaving in and out of the enemy's range hoping to not get hit. This was especially difficult with enemies with 2h weapons, and most of it was based on luck. It wasn't hard, it was just mostly about luck.

And I'm glad you brought up dark souls. By mentioning roll spamming I'm betting you haven't actually played it, or you didn't play it for very long.

In that game rolling is pretty much reserved for giant enemies because it takes you too far away from smaller enemies. Generally you stepped around the smaller enemies and only used the roll to escape, and the way the environment was designed you risked falling off a ledge. Against large enemies roll spamming was a great way of getting yourself killed because it drained all your stamina quickly. You had to time your rolls specifically, because rolls gave you a very brief period of invincibility that you could use to dive through enemy attacks.

The game also had a lot more variety in its attacks too. I mentioned that in skyrim you could pretty much replace all weapons with short ranged lasers, but dark souls is much different. The game has about 17 different types of weapons, each with 7 unique attacks with different ranges, speeds, stun rates, poise attacks, and hitboxes, and every weapon in the 17 categories had 1 special unique attack. Now that game has weighty combat.


I'm not saying skyrim is a bad game btw. It's a great game. The combat is just bad. I don't think the combat is bad because they didn't know how to make good combat either, i think it's bad because of technical limitations. Good combat requires a tight engine and a lot of processing power, something that the developers decided was less important than other parts of the game (like the environment or modability). If they spent less time and memory on other things and worked on combat you would have something like dark souls.
 

Scow2

New member
Aug 3, 2009
801
0
0
Burst6 said:
Scow2 said:
1. I've never had depth problems, so meh.

2. I've not had any problem with hitboxes... The "One attack, one target" thing is effective - you don't have enough power behind the swing to hit more than one foe without that one special perk. Doesn't bother me.

3.I'm glad the game isn't so horrible about Stunlocking opponents, and the only enemies that I've had problems with a lack of Hitstun against were Bears and Dragons. Other enemies generally do react to the impact.

4. I'm glad that combat doesn't lock your movement in Skyrim. There are still plenty of opportunities to dodge attacks, but it's not as easy or stupid as it is in other games (Such as Dark Soul's Rollolspam. Seriously, I hate excessive combat rolling in games. It looks retarded)
1) That's probably because there's no need to judge depth in skyrim. Most of the melee combat is about running in close and trading blows until they die.

2) Yeah but let's say you swing your weapon and your animation shows a wide arc, but you aim to the side of your enemy. Even then it doesn't hit. It's not efficient, if the game wants to convey the idea of you not being able to hit more than 1 enemy at a time they would add more animations to show you.

3) Really? Generally there's no way to ensure that i can get in without getting hit. In good combat games you wait for an opening and then go in and punish them. This adds a lot of strategy to the game. In Skyrim i can never do this because even if the enemy misses a big attack by the time I'm ready to counterattack them they've recovered and are ready to hit me back. Even if i did a shield bash (which stunned everything), they would recover before i could swing my sword.

4) Tell me how were you able to dodge? The only thing i could do to avoid getting hit is weaving in and out of the enemy's range hoping to not get hit. This was especially difficult with enemies with 2h weapons, and most of it was based on luck. It wasn't hard, it was just mostly about luck.

And I'm glad you brought up dark souls. By mentioning roll spamming I'm betting you haven't actually played it, or you didn't play it for very long.

In that game rolling is pretty much reserved for giant enemies because it takes you too far away from smaller enemies. Generally you stepped around the smaller enemies and only used the roll to escape, and the way the environment was designed you risked falling off a ledge. Against large enemies roll spamming was a great way of getting yourself killed because it drained all your stamina quickly. You had to time your rolls specifically, because rolls gave you a very brief period of invincibility that you could use to dive through enemy attacks.

The game also had a lot more variety in its attacks too. I mentioned that in skyrim you could pretty much replace all weapons with short ranged lasers, but dark souls is much different. The game has about 17 different types of weapons, each with 7 unique attacks with different ranges, speeds, stun rates, poise attacks, and hitboxes, and every weapon in the 17 categories had 1 special unique attack. Now that game has weighty combat.


I'm not saying skyrim is a bad game btw. It's a great game. The combat is just bad. I don't think the combat is bad because they didn't know how to make good combat either, i think it's bad because of technical limitations. Good combat requires a tight engine and a lot of processing power, something that the developers decided was less important than other parts of the game (like the environment or modability). If they spent less time and memory on other things and worked on combat you would have something like dark souls.
2.Actually, I find it usually does hit, due to the change in the system for "magnetic" strikes. You just can't hit more than one target.
3. You've started complaining about a problem that everyone else has the opposite with: Shield bashing is a 1-way ticket to stunlock. Honestly, I like Skyrim because it puts the Player on mostly-even footing with enemies. You don't get to stunlock them very well, but on the flipside, you don't spend very long being stunlocked either.
4. It's not easy, but by watching and anticipating the enemy's movement: They work under the same restrictions you do, so to dodge, just move yourself to a position that you'd miss them if they did the same to you.

Something I like about Skyrim's combat is that it isn't all about blocking and dodging - passive defenses are important too. Combat's simple and visceral: If you're a melee-focused character, melee combat's a breeze. If you're not, it can be a real challenge to survive, not just a "At least I can completely outmaneuver and pwn this guy anyway, despite my complete statistical lack of melee ability". There's some strategy involved, especially when dealing with multiple foes, but for the most part, you can fight intuitively while your character's strengths or weaknesses ultimately carry the outcome of the battle.

ANY rolling in combat is too much for my tastes, unless the character is explicitly a dedicated, agile acrobat (Such as my Oblivion character, the Prince of Persia, and Link, because he's an Elf-thing). My heavy-armored knight in Dark Souls rolling around like an armadillo or pill bug was just silly.
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
3,028
0
0
Burst6 said:
Ive been thinking about skyrim's combat and comparing it to other action RPGs and i think i know what's wrong with it.

4 things

1) First person does not make for a good action RPG.

It's very hard to judge distance. Even in games that do it right (like Dark Messiah) Tend to be worse off than 3rd person ARPGs. First person is made really for ranged combat. Ok, so say you play skyrim in 3rd person, there's more problems coming.

2) hitboxes.

A hitbox is an invisible box that appears for a fraction of a second when you attack. If your weapons damage hitbox touches the enemies health hitbox, they lose health.

Any good ARPG needs good hitboxes. If you do a wide horizontal swing with a greatsword it should hit everything in an area in an arc in front of you. Skyrim doesn't have this. There's only 1 melee attack in the game that lets you hit more than 1 enemy, and that's late in the game and is really annoying to use. Every other attack has the same effect as a gun with really short range. You only hit what you aim at. If you replace all melee weapons with a short ranged chargeable laser the gameplay won't change at all.

3) Lack of hitstun.

This is what people mean when attacks have no weight. Most action RPG's incorporate hitstun, meaning if something gets hit they are stunned for a split second. Skyrim does have this, but it's useless. Even small enemies take a lot of hits to get hitstunned, and even then the hitstun doesn't last long enough. If you beat on a dragon long enough to actually stun it it will stop what it's doing, but it will continue immediately. In a lot of good action RPGs hitstun either lasts long enough to let you get a few hits in, or lets you refresh that hitstun with every successive attack.

4) The movement.

It's very unpolished. You can move while attacking and the power attacks seem like they move you way too much. It takes away a feeling of weight in the game when you feel like your character is floating above the ground, and the fact that enemies can move while attacking too means that there is no dodging. The enemy has his short-ranged laser pointed at you constantly. That means if he swings and you dodge to the side you will still get hit because he turns around with you.


So you can't avoid enemy attacks and counterattack because enemies aim for you instantly and all attacks have horrible hitboxes. You can't hitstun them at all meaning if you hit an enemy chances are they'll hit you too. And finally it's difficult to judge range (even in 3rd person) because you don't actually know where you're hitting (thanks in part to the hitbox problem).

So all you can do with melee is run up to them and have a swinging competition.
Going to have to agree with Scow. I've never had any of the problems you're talking about(or in some cases, just don't agree that they're problems).

1. Never had this problem, and I can't see how anyone would after having spent any amount of time learning the game. Unless all you do is walk into range and spam LMB.

2. I've never understood why people think that you should be able to hit multiple enemies with a single blow. These aren't lightsabers. Any contact effective enough cause damage is going to rob your attack of force. Multihitting is a video game conceit that I associate with games aiming for an arcade feel. Skyrim is not one those.

3. Yeah, I could do without stunlock. Staggers? Sure, but nothing that lasts more than a brief moment. That said, I'd prefer if the AI was smarter about defense and opening exploitation for the very reason you profess to want stuns. So I guess this one is more an issue of us having different ideas about achieving the same result.

4. This one I don't get at all. When Skyrim came out, one of my complaints was that dual-wielding didn't allow for blocking. The most common response I got was that it was a trivial complaint because dodging is so easy. I haven't run across enemies turning into my movement to prevent a side step(though I usually just parry), so I wonder if one or the other of us is running a mod that affects that portion of enemy AI. *shrug* Also, while I don't share Scow's dislike of the Dark Souls dodge system(and those enemies really will turn to catch you if you don't time your dodge correctly), I wouldn't want to see a dodge gimmick in TES anymore than I would want locked targeting with circle strafe.
 

Kizi

New member
Apr 29, 2011
276
0
0
It's been six months? Wow.

I like the combat. It's certainly a lot more fun than the stick-banging that is Oblivion, (I still really enjoyed that game, mind you) though I haven't tried every play style yet. Sword-and-shield on my first character was pretty solid and so is my current archer.