So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.
- Thread starter MrGalactus
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You're completely right, Imperator.Imperator_DK said:
What I want to know is why don't the comics and related films follow US demographics more closely? By rights 16.3% of all superheroes should be Hispanic, and 4.8% Asian. Why this racist monopolization by whites and blacks? Are they even trying to be inclusive? I can't even remember the last time I saw an openly Orthodox Jewish comic book hero.
Where are all the superheroes aged 50+? Some of these guys and girls are immortal, right, so this ridiculous Logan's Run effect shouldn't be so prevalent. And don't give me the "they're fictional characters, hey don't age" defence, that's just airbrushing out an entire demographic, and one that makes up a third of all Americans.
And what's with the fascistic and unrealistic physical portrayal of superheroes? 35% of American adults are obese. How many plus-sized superheroes can you name? No, not freakishly steroid-pumped "heroes" that encourage drug abuse and unhealthily low bodyfat, I mean proud, healthy, full-figured superheroes who don't let their curves prevent them from fighting crime and acting as great role models for 35% of US adults and 17% of children. Almost a fifth of American children who read comic books or go to the movies find the superheroes just don't look like them physically. That's got to be crushing for their self-esteem. Is this ok? Of course it isn't. More plus-sized superheroes, male and female, now!
I honestly don't mind, and this is coming from a Marvel and FF4 fan. The only thorny thing I can think of is that some of the interplay between him and Susan Storm will be lost if they aren't siblings anymore. Of course this could be rectified if they make her black as well, but I doubt they'd have the cojones to make two major characters black.
Personally, I'd like to see it, but why make a historically white character black when they could be introducing Falcon, Black Panther, Prowler, or even Miles Morales.
Personally, I'd like to see it, but why make a historically white character black when they could be introducing Falcon, Black Panther, Prowler, or even Miles Morales.
Here I was thinking that the actual reason for casting in a black man was because the movie going generation demographics has been shifting towards darker colors. I mean, big producers had to eventually acknowledge the fact that people going to the movies are no longer the same as the were 30 years ago.
Do you honestly think that companies like Fox consider "politically correct" reasons as valid arguments to make these sort changes? Silly people. And majority of you live in homeland of capitalism, you should know better.
Do you honestly think that companies like Fox consider "politically correct" reasons as valid arguments to make these sort changes? Silly people. And majority of you live in homeland of capitalism, you should know better.
People are forgetting the true issue right now and that is they didn't cast a Native American as Warpath in Days of Future Past. Now that's a problem.
Don't know if anyone has already mentioned it, but claiming the 'source material should be adapted correctly' thing bugs me. Does anyone stop to think that virtually all the primary superhero characters are white? Do we think about the reasons behind that? These characters were created in times when no one would even think to make them different ethnicities, and if they did it would have been a maaasive deal. Sure there are a few exceptions to the rule, but for the most part these character's ethnicities were just unthought default choices, like a racial equivalent to heteronormativity (theres probably a word for it...).
The choice for caucasian characters was not a calculated decision, but just standard 'this is what heros look like'; a basic and unthinking reaction due to the general ideology of the times. So, claiming that 'we must be true to the source material' is simply supporting the general ideology of the 60's.
Do you really think if these characters were being created now that they'd all be white? The reason why people kick up a fuss nowadays when POC characters are cast as white in adaptations is because they are rare enough as is, without converting them to just more white characters (Think Last Airbender and the Inuit, Tibetan etc whitewashing. The diversity on the show was pretty cool and the movie decimated that).
Pretty much, if the source material is a product of a (intentionally or not) racist mindset, then why claim it as something that needs supporting and faithful adapting?
The choice for caucasian characters was not a calculated decision, but just standard 'this is what heros look like'; a basic and unthinking reaction due to the general ideology of the times. So, claiming that 'we must be true to the source material' is simply supporting the general ideology of the 60's.
Do you really think if these characters were being created now that they'd all be white? The reason why people kick up a fuss nowadays when POC characters are cast as white in adaptations is because they are rare enough as is, without converting them to just more white characters (Think Last Airbender and the Inuit, Tibetan etc whitewashing. The diversity on the show was pretty cool and the movie decimated that).
Pretty much, if the source material is a product of a (intentionally or not) racist mindset, then why claim it as something that needs supporting and faithful adapting?
I don't really follow comic books, my knowledge of the fantastic four extends about as far as the recent movies and what I can remember of a cartoon which used to be on and both of these have been somewhat overshadowed by the x-men however I do know that johnny storm is supposed to be brother to susan storm, adoption seems like a more reasonable route to take if the film makers do decide that Johnny must absolutely be black since having a genetic throwback would probably take too much explaining and doing so may feel a little out of place, to be completely honest I think adoption is very nearly an unreasonable idea for similar reasons, its saving grace being that people are likely to come to this conclusion on their own and may not need a scene explaining either one of the two were adopted. I should probably quote mrgalactus' post but ive already begun writing and can't be bothered to find it. I have however already found a post reguarding a black bond and assure you that I will be getting to that at some point.
Ive noticed that some people have been commenting about the fact that one of the god's in thor was played by someone who was black. once again Ive never really been a big follower of the comics but was always a big fan of myths and legends when I was in school so I actually did initially find myself wondering what people who did not typically look like norseman were doing in asgaurd but the issue was quickly put to rest by my sister who pointed out that they were supposed to be gods and could look however they wanted. this got me thinking, their home is not even a part of our planet, why is it that they should have looked like those who chose to worship and revere them?
Finally.
Ive noticed that some people have been commenting about the fact that one of the god's in thor was played by someone who was black. once again Ive never really been a big follower of the comics but was always a big fan of myths and legends when I was in school so I actually did initially find myself wondering what people who did not typically look like norseman were doing in asgaurd but the issue was quickly put to rest by my sister who pointed out that they were supposed to be gods and could look however they wanted. this got me thinking, their home is not even a part of our planet, why is it that they should have looked like those who chose to worship and revere them?
Finally.
Im not certain that a black bond would be a problem, I don't really see the idea as being silly and to be honest his character, as far as I am aware, could translate fairly well no matter the actor, of course changing them to a lady bond might be pushing the boat out a little too far when you could always just write a bond like story and give them a different name if you really did want a female lead for such a film.Private Custard said:
Why does it need to be accurate to the source material? Would it not be interesting to see a different take on the same idea? The thing about the source material is that, it's already there, so why not have a new twist on that idea?Shadowstar38 said:
Scott Pilgrim differs quite significantly between the comic and the film especially in the last third, which I feel only adds to the series. While admittedly all of the characters were the same nationality (bar Matthew Patel who was portrayed by a British-born American rather than a straight-up Yank) I feel it's a similar thing. If you're going to make a new version of something, why not go nuts and change things up a bit, make it interesting.
Logical arguments vs emotional arguments.
Logically it's not a big deal to change the race of a fictional character, but it's considerably easier to feel that way when you're not invested in the franchise in question. You could race-swap alot of things and I wouldn't raise an eye-brow. If you gave Max Payne that treatment I'd be conflicted, it might not quite be the thing I know and love anymore. I'd still play it, obviously... how many games let you slow-motion-dive around corners with guns blazing?
That's how I see it, and why I'm not about to assume the worst in anybody. Why would you assume the worst in somebody anyway?... It's a shitty thing to do.
Logically it's not a big deal to change the race of a fictional character, but it's considerably easier to feel that way when you're not invested in the franchise in question. You could race-swap alot of things and I wouldn't raise an eye-brow. If you gave Max Payne that treatment I'd be conflicted, it might not quite be the thing I know and love anymore. I'd still play it, obviously... how many games let you slow-motion-dive around corners with guns blazing?
That's how I see it, and why I'm not about to assume the worst in anybody. Why would you assume the worst in somebody anyway?... It's a shitty thing to do.
Ok, so let's play execs for a moment (minus the massive paychecks)
I'm sitting here at the table and my opinion is that Johnny has always had his look in the comics and fans will generally respond best to sticking to the source material.
While I am not against the idea of casting Michael in the role it then means we should cast a black actress as Sue Storm. I know you can have mixed race siblings but we need people to easily identify them as brother and sister. That doesn't raise too many issues either but I'm trying to find the reason why the studio needs to go through all this for the sake of deviating from the source material.
Could we not recast one of the other two?
My reply to myself...
Well, aside from Michael being a good actor we would start introducing diversity into the predominately white superhero genre. And yes, we'd have to cast Sue as african-american too but that just adds to the impact of what we are doing here and I am sure it's for the better.
Sure we could recast Reed or The Thing but Reeds look is even more key to the character as the typical reclusive bumbling professor and The Thing is an orange rock.
Cynical Me...
Oh yeah, plus the internet backlash would generate so much talk about the movie on message boards and forums on the internet.
Free publicity anyone?
So in conclusion, let it ride and see how it turns out.
I'm sitting here at the table and my opinion is that Johnny has always had his look in the comics and fans will generally respond best to sticking to the source material.
While I am not against the idea of casting Michael in the role it then means we should cast a black actress as Sue Storm. I know you can have mixed race siblings but we need people to easily identify them as brother and sister. That doesn't raise too many issues either but I'm trying to find the reason why the studio needs to go through all this for the sake of deviating from the source material.
Could we not recast one of the other two?
My reply to myself...
Well, aside from Michael being a good actor we would start introducing diversity into the predominately white superhero genre. And yes, we'd have to cast Sue as african-american too but that just adds to the impact of what we are doing here and I am sure it's for the better.
Sure we could recast Reed or The Thing but Reeds look is even more key to the character as the typical reclusive bumbling professor and The Thing is an orange rock.
Cynical Me...
Oh yeah, plus the internet backlash would generate so much talk about the movie on message boards and forums on the internet.
Free publicity anyone?
So in conclusion, let it ride and see how it turns out.
If the performance is good and the movie is solid then I can dig it. On the other hand if the performance is bad and the movie is worse then spitefully listing all of the myriad ways that the director broke from canon, including changing the ethnicity of certain characters is my revenge for them wasting both my money and my time. Case in point while I was initially wary of Marvel casting Idris Elba in the role of Heimdall I do believe that he silenced a lot of his critics with the strength of his performance.
See, this is where I disagree; even if the character isn't obviously defined by his race (even though Johnny is a typical spoiled white fratboy, but that aside), race is still an important part of one's identity, and even more so; how people look at you. Please don't expect that the audience will get the same character understanding and connotations from a black character and a white one.MrGalactus said:
I just disagree that it's offensive to dismiss an actor if he have a significant trait that doesn't match the role. There are so many actors and so many roles, so one should try to make the best matches.MrGalactus said:
Oh, and name value would be like when having a DiCaprio or Depp in a film; big stars sell tickets.
What it would be doing is changing a fundamental aspect of a classic character. It's like casting Superman as black. Would you really get cries of "racist" when people protest to a black superman? This kind of PC bullshit annoys me a lot. If a female actor wanted the role of a popular male character (lets say, Batman, Superman, or even Harry Potter), would we deem it sexism if it were denied? We wouldn't, or at least we shouldn't.
Equal opportunity is a good thing, but you can't expect someone incapable of fulfilling a particular role to fulfil a particular role.
Equal opportunity is a good thing, but you can't expect someone incapable of fulfilling a particular role to fulfil a particular role.
I don't see any reason to have a problem with it. I just look at it in the sense of Samuel L Jackson is the iconic Nick Fury now, though for 60 years, he more or less looked like John Wayne with and eyepatch. The character added a certain amount of 'gravitas' to the role. And no one has said anything since, more or less.
Having MBJ play Johnny doesn't necessarily have to change anything about the core of the character, what with his essence being a hothead who is prone to act first and think later, but is also capable of great intellectual insight. Not to mention, if they DON'T make Sue black, but instead do something like make Johnny adopted or something, it could add substance to the character's impulsiveness... Maybe a need to feel that he 'measures up' to the Storm family or something. It's far from uncommon to have extra media change cannon (Mr Freeze origin change, or the aforementioned Nick Fury).
Now, if the change to Johnny is solely to 'make him black', then that's patronizing and the casting itself is racist and pandering in the first place. MBJ, however, is a good actor (I loved him in Friday Night Lights, and still think of him as Wallace in The Wire) and he's more than capable of actually playing the role. So I say let the actor be 'Johnny Storm' first... then let him be "Black Johnny".
Having MBJ play Johnny doesn't necessarily have to change anything about the core of the character, what with his essence being a hothead who is prone to act first and think later, but is also capable of great intellectual insight. Not to mention, if they DON'T make Sue black, but instead do something like make Johnny adopted or something, it could add substance to the character's impulsiveness... Maybe a need to feel that he 'measures up' to the Storm family or something. It's far from uncommon to have extra media change cannon (Mr Freeze origin change, or the aforementioned Nick Fury).
Now, if the change to Johnny is solely to 'make him black', then that's patronizing and the casting itself is racist and pandering in the first place. MBJ, however, is a good actor (I loved him in Friday Night Lights, and still think of him as Wallace in The Wire) and he's more than capable of actually playing the role. So I say let the actor be 'Johnny Storm' first... then let him be "Black Johnny".
While I do agree with you Gennaroc that the Source Material shouldn't be set in stone I.E. Johnny being white forever. They should stick to an idea of making both Johnny and Sue Black. Marvel has multi-universes I believe as much as DC does. It is possible in one universe Sue and Johnny were born from a black family. Go on from there. No issue with me.Gennaroc said:
But a Black Johnny and White sue doesn't feel right to me personally. I have NOTHING against the color of a person's skin. But if they stick to the idea that Johnny and Sue are brother and sister, shouldn't they be the same colour? I know there are step brothers/sisters but I haven't found anywhere that Johnny was adopted. If someone can find the source to that please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
As for the 'Last Airbender' That movie had MANY flaws. One of it was because it wasn't sticking to the source material. A LOT of people that watched it were fans of the tv series and for it to change so much ruined the experience for a lot of people. That is why so many people hated it, while people new to the franchise seemed to like it. EVEN the creators of the show dismissed the movie and said it never existed. To me, changing something like that without the creator's blessing is basically flipping them the finger and being very rude to them.
There are times where changing a plot/character can be beneficial to a movie or game. I.E.: Nick Fury because that person or plot isn't well known to many.
I don't think a lot of people knew who Nick Fury was prior to the new Marvel Movie adaptions which is why it was easy to make a black Nick Fury.
But sometimes changing something: 'Like Vampires in Twilight' who in ancient stories and fictions as blood thirsty creatures of the night that fed off of people and used them as food/slaves, into sparking vampires in sunlight who chose to only eat cattle... well... yeah.
I believe you meant Luke Cage. As far as I know, Nicolas Cage is not a super hero.... Otherwise whoever took his Chocolate cake is in some major trouble.Dragonclaw said:
hes just going to admit hes adopted. BAM. problem solved. Now if he sucks at acting, it could totally overshadow anything and everything else about him as a person. It always comes down to talent.
I've seen this complaint here already so I'll just add my two cents. My main issue is that Johnny and Sue are brother and sister, and no level of suspended disbelief will make me look at Michael Jordan and think, 'yeah, one of his parents could've been white.' So if they change Sue's race too then it shouldn't be a big deal but being blood-related is a vital part of their characters so if they change THAT then it will have crossed over from 'odd casting choice' to 'bad casting and directorial choice'.
Also, why the buck would they cast Michael Jordan. I legitimately have not seen him act in anything since Space Jam. Secondly, no offense to mister Jordan, he looks good for his age, but the whole point of Johnny Storm's character is that he's a 'hot-headed young man with a lot to prove'. Michael just... doesn't look that young anymore. He'd actually make a better Ben Grimm to be honest but, personally, I'm still holding out for Ron Perlman for that role.
Also, why the buck would they cast Michael Jordan. I legitimately have not seen him act in anything since Space Jam. Secondly, no offense to mister Jordan, he looks good for his age, but the whole point of Johnny Storm's character is that he's a 'hot-headed young man with a lot to prove'. Michael just... doesn't look that young anymore. He'd actually make a better Ben Grimm to be honest but, personally, I'm still holding out for Ron Perlman for that role.
Meh, as long as the race isn't critical to the character, and he plays the part well, it doesn't matter in the slightest.
Never understood why people get up in arms over changes to the source materials, adaptations tend to work best when it twists the source material in ways to their advantage. Try to adapt one medium into another without changes and you get the 500000000 bad book based movies or movie based games.
Never understood why people get up in arms over changes to the source materials, adaptations tend to work best when it twists the source material in ways to their advantage. Try to adapt one medium into another without changes and you get the 500000000 bad book based movies or movie based games.