So.... are gays and blacks persecuted in the Marvel Universe?

[DudeistBelieve]

I was thinking today about how the average joe in the Marvel Universe hates mutants (ya know since it's am allegory for our own real world prejudice towards people that are different then us).... and this lead to some really stupid thoughts and questions on my part.

Like... Okay, they hate mutants but people of different races are okay? Different sexualities?

Can you imagine there being a black version of magneto? Blackneto! And he wants to take all the black people to go live on his Asteroid where they'd be free from persecution?

Yeah I'm being silly here, and possibly offensive, but I just don't quite understand how the civilians work in this fictional universe. Like what's they're deal compared to the DC civilians? The DC civilians seem to love their superheroes and their antics, the Marvel ones seem to just barely tolerate it.

 

[The Funslinger]

I'd say the Marvel universe is more realistic than DC with how it portrays civilian and government reaction to super powered vigilantes. It's the real world + batshit crazy super powers. All that crap's probably there, there's just no relevant reason to focus on it that wouldn't seem like shoehorning. Plus "dem minorities stealing our wimmins" racism would (even in the mind of a highly bigoted individual) be quite overshadowed by "oh sweet Jesus, that guy could fly around and shoot pure death at me!"

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'd say the Marvel universe is more realistic than DC with how it portrays civilian and government reaction to super powered vigilantes. It's the real world + batshit crazy super powers. All that crap's probably there, there's just no relevant reason to focus on it that wouldn't seem like shoehorning. Plus "dem minorities stealing our wimmins" racism would (even in the mind of a highly bigoted individual) be quite overshadowed by "oh sweet Jesus, that guy could fly around and shoot pure death at me!"

Don't they have that in DC? People ***** all the time that Batman is nothing but a vigilante, and worry that Superman is going to turn on them because he's alien.

I'm not saying having these kinds of heroes would go over well in the real world, but the Marvel civilians just come across as retarded most of the time.

 

[uneek]

I'd much rather worry about people who have dangerous abilities that can easily cause damage in the wrong hands than people of different skin color. The marvel universe sounds more sensible than our universe.

 

[Hal10k]

Can you imagine there being a black version of magneto? Blackneto! And he wants to take all the black people to go live on his Asteroid where they'd be free from persecution?

Malcolm X would like a word with you.

That being said, "Blackneto" sounds like the name of either a bad porno or a glorious grindhouse film.

 

[burningdragoon]

Well, nothing brings people of different backgrounds together like a new thing to discriminate against.

 

[alfawx]

I'd say it would probably still exist, but be much more downplayed than it is in this here non-Marvel land. Even though, as you said, Marvel heroes aren't always revered in their societies, they would probably still provide role models for the generations of kids after they became well known. If a hero is black during the Marvel 1950s, people who were anti-black rights would probably shut up on account of said hero likely being able to easily pummel them and those who were neutral on the matter might be swayed to a more "open-minded" side both because of their stance as a role model and the possibility of being turned into pro-segregation jelly. Of course most of that reasoning could apply to mutants, so maybe I'm just thinking about this the wrong way.

 

[emmettr3]

Racism/sexism/whatever still exists in Marvel - it's just overshadowed by the more massive (and reasonable) prejudices afforded mutants/other superheroes.

On the Marvel/DC thing... Marvel attempts, mostly, to integrate the idea of superheroes with 'realistic' governments/corporations/culture. Occasionally they succeed quite well - Ultimate SHIELD and the 'genetic engineering cold war' thing was well-handled - but often it just makes governments and ordinary people look like idiots.
DC tends to just ignore 'mundane' government/culture - I picture the President tossing his hands up and going "you know what, leave all the aliens and lasers to the JLA, I've got a healthcare plan to implement". Although some of the best DC stories (Dark Knight Returns, Kingdom Come) WERE about the interaction between mundanity and superheroics...

Anyway, my basic point is that the two approaches are different, neither is very realistic and both are good at what they do.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Can you imagine there being a black version of magneto? Blackneto! And he wants to take all the black people to go live on his Asteroid where they'd be free from persecution?

Malcolm X would like a word with you.

That being said, "Blackneto" sounds like the name of either a bad porno or a glorious grindhouse film.

He probably would.

C'mon Blackneto! And in return, White Luke Cage!

I'd much rather worry about people who have dangerous abilities that can easily cause damage in the wrong hands than people of different skin color. The marvel universe sounds more sensible than our universe.

But do they present it that way in the comics? I'm not a huge marvel fan, but I remember the old X-Men show and I remember the civilians being dicks to mutants like in the same vein of the way white people use to treat the blacks in America during the civil rights era or the Nazis with the jews.

It seemed like their hate came out of a place of them not being "normal", being freaks. It certainly wasn't the normies going on TV being all "Hey man, we know you're not all evil but this whole random people getting random powers is scaring us non-powered folk... can we like work something out?". It was them being all "RAWR! THE MUTANTS ARE A SIN AGAINST GOD AND THEY DESERVE TO DIE!" all Fred Phelps like.

The DC Civilians... Okay they always acknowledge that Batman is just a vigilante but they also see the reality of Gotham being totally fucked and the Batman being a guy trying to do some good. They love Superman, but even he too they treat with a degree of suspicion due to his alien origin and the fact he literally could enslave the planet if he had to. In the DCAU the justice league got into some bad PR shit when it was revealed their watch tower had a mother fucking death ray on it.

 

[Kinguendo]

You cant get irrational people to realise your point through rational debate... making a metaphor of persecution into a group of individuals, both good and bad and having some being relatable is the best hope of getting through to the afore mentioned hopelessly irrational bigots.

Example: You represent the black community as a group of white people who are persecuted for being born diffent to the majority, this effectively bypasses the colour blindfold of ignorance that racists wear allowing them to see the damage, pain and irrationality of such hatred as well as empaphizing with the victims who would and maybe have been victims of their own words and actions previously.

It is fairly obvious that there will have been a fair few bigotted individuals who were and are fans of the X-Men. In short, its a rather fantastic way of introducing ideas of equality without actually introducing factors that cause arguments in reality. Getting racists to see the damage they do to the black community, rather than searching no deeper than "black" and only focusing on that quite irrelevent point.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

You cant get irrational people to realise your point through rational debate... making a metaphor of persecution into a group of individuals, both good and bad and having some being relatable is the best hope of getting through to the afore mentioned hopelessly irrational bigots.

Example: You represent the black community as a group of white people who are persecuted for being born diffent to the majority, this effectively bypasses the colour blindfold of ignorance that racists wear allowing them to see the damage, pain and irrationality of such hatred as well as empaphizing with the victims who would and maybe have been victims of their own words and actions previously.

It is fairly obvious that there will have been a fair few bigotted individuals who were and are fans of the X-Men.

Is that true though? Would a Bigot even catch on to that message in the text?

I mean you and I can see that cause we're modestly intelligent. I won't say I have the purest of all hearts, but when I find joy in a somewhat racist joke I'm very self aware that it's not appropriate.

I don't think racists/bigots see themselves as racists/bigots.

 

[Launcelot111]

Can you imagine there being a black version of magneto? Blackneto! And he wants to take all the black people to go live on his Asteroid where they'd be free from persecution?

Malcolm X would like a word with you.

That being said, "Blackneto" sounds like the name of either a bad porno or a glorious grindhouse film.

He probably would.

C'mon Blackneto! And in return, White Luke Cage!

I'd much rather worry about people who have dangerous abilities that can easily cause damage in the wrong hands than people of different skin color. The marvel universe sounds more sensible than our universe.

But do they present it that way in the comics? I'm not a huge marvel fan, but I remember the old X-Men show and I remember the civilians being dicks to mutants like in the same vein of the way white people use to treat the blacks in America during the civil rights era or the Nazis with the jews.

It seemed like their hate came out of a place of them not being "normal", being freaks. It certainly wasn't the normies going on TV being all "Hey man, we know you're not all evil but this whole random people getting random powers is scaring us non-powered folk... can we like work something out?". It was them being all "RAWR! THE MUTANTS ARE A SIN AGAINST GOD AND THEY DESERVE TO DIE!" all Fred Phelps like.

The DC Civilians... Okay they always acknowledge that Batman is just a vigilante but they also see the reality of Gotham being totally fucked and the Batman being a guy trying to do some good. They love Superman, but even he too they treat with a degree of suspicion due to his alien origin and the fact he literally could enslave the planet if he had to. In the DCAU the justice league got into some bad PR shit when it was revealed their watch tower had a mother fucking death ray on it.

Mutants in the Marvel Universe are a metaphor for civil rights and religious persecution and everything along that vein (also puberty). The Sentinels were made to protect people from the mutant threat, Reverend Stryker sees mutants as a sin against God, and many timelines lead to mutants living in concentration camps or under siege from all the nations of the world, not to mention a fairly regular supply of human supremacist groups. So yes, people are scared of mutants because of the arbitrary and wildly uncertain nature of power getting. I mean, Scarlet Witch and Proteus can pretty much reshape reality how they want. That's terrifying stuff.

The X-men stories in recent years have covered how the team is shaped by human perception and fear of mutants. The Astonishing X-men stories acknowledge how baseline humans have a hard time relating with furry blue people and thus show the team trying to present themselves as a crime fighting force like the Avengers instead of some shadowy mutant rights army like how some people thought of them. Also, when the team moved to San Francisco, the team made a big point of how well all the less than human looking mutants fit in, and there were some analogies about mutant pride if I remember.

So yes, the mutants get the terrible treatment that gays and minorities get in real life. As for gays and minorities in the comics, I can't actually recall any sort of bigotry or any civil rights angle about them past one old issue of Amazing Spiderman where Robbie Robertson's son went to a protest or something.

 

[Kolby Jack]

I'd say the Marvel universe is more realistic than DC with how it portrays civilian and government reaction to super powered vigilantes. It's the real world + batshit crazy super powers. All that crap's probably there, there's just no relevant reason to focus on it that wouldn't seem like shoehorning. Plus "dem minorities stealing our wimmins" racism would (even in the mind of a highly bigoted individual) be quite overshadowed by "oh sweet Jesus, that guy could fly around and shoot pure death at me!"

You do realize that you're talking about a universe where GREEN FREAKING GOBLIN was made head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and DOCTOR FREAKING DOOM has his own country, right? It is most definitely NOT like the real world.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

Anyone feel weird about the way "gays and blacks" is used? Not intentionally offensive or anything, but it seems... wrong. Maybe I'm weird.

 

[octafish]

Someone needs to read Truth: Red White and Black, the story of Isaiah Bradley. Not the greatest comic book story but a nice counterpoint to Captain America. As for DC...well the most formidable non-powered character in the DC Universe was, until the reboot that ruined everything, a middle-aged overweight, black woman.

 

[CODE-D]

I'd say the Marvel universe is more realistic than DC with how it portrays civilian and government reaction to super powered vigilantes. It's the real world + batshit crazy super powers. All that crap's probably there, there's just no relevant reason to focus on it that wouldn't seem like shoehorning. Plus "dem minorities stealing our wimmins" racism would (even in the mind of a highly bigoted individual) be quite overshadowed by "oh sweet Jesus, that guy could fly around and shoot pure death at me!"

Im pretty sure "the real world" wouldnt treat them as they do in xmen, since in the real world we so desperately want powers. I feel they would be studied but peacefully.

also most of dcs main cast is out of governments hands or knowledge
batman is like a myth in universe
superman is almost uncontainable(they may or may not know his weakness)
aquaman has his own city under water
green lantern lives out in space
wonder woman an uncharted isle of amazons
martian manhunter can shapeshift into anyone

Only the recent young justice show has a character who acts like a bill o reily but its mostly towards aliens.

 

[The Funslinger]

I'd say the Marvel universe is more realistic than DC with how it portrays civilian and government reaction to super powered vigilantes. It's the real world + batshit crazy super powers. All that crap's probably there, there's just no relevant reason to focus on it that wouldn't seem like shoehorning. Plus "dem minorities stealing our wimmins" racism would (even in the mind of a highly bigoted individual) be quite overshadowed by "oh sweet Jesus, that guy could fly around and shoot pure death at me!"

You do realize that you're talking about a universe where GREEN FREAKING GOBLIN was made head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and DOCTOR FREAKING DOOM has his own country, right? It is most definitely NOT like the real world.

Well, I'm not all that knowledgeable about Doctor Doom, but did Norman Osborn ever get outed as the Green Goblin? If not, then "flashy government scientist" would have seemed like a good idea for SHIELD.

Anyway, no need to call me out on any nitpick. I just meant the general negative reaction to mutants and whatnot.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

I'd say the Marvel universe is more realistic than DC with how it portrays civilian and government reaction to super powered vigilantes. It's the real world + batshit crazy super powers. All that crap's probably there, there's just no relevant reason to focus on it that wouldn't seem like shoehorning. Plus "dem minorities stealing our wimmins" racism would (even in the mind of a highly bigoted individual) be quite overshadowed by "oh sweet Jesus, that guy could fly around and shoot pure death at me!"

You do realize that you're talking about a universe where GREEN FREAKING GOBLIN was made head of S.H.I.E.L.D. and DOCTOR FREAKING DOOM has his own country, right? It is most definitely NOT like the real world.

Well, I'm not all that knowledgeable about Doctor Doom, but did Norman Osborn ever get outed as the Green Goblin? If not, then "flashy government scientist" would have seemed like a good idea for SHIELD.

Anyway, no need to call me out on any nitpick. I just meant the general negative reaction to mutants and whatnot.

Osborn got outed at the end of Siege and oddly enough seeing that he actually WAS as crazy as Spiderman claimed, he was removed from his position of power. Which you could probably make a metaphor out of if you were of a mind.

Also like to mention, Gaddafi had his own country, Saddam had his own country, evil dictator's having a country is not exactly unrealistic, especially when they have a horde of robots to back them up.

OT: Marvel does have real life prejudices sneaking in, as well as all the mutant-hate but it's usually being done through exagerated comic villains like Red Skull or Hatemonger (who are literal nazis. And one is actualy, not even remotely joking, the ghost of Hitler). I think they tone down the racism stuff because the X-men are their obvious analogue. Even if Storm is the only black member. Plus after the 70's era Luke Cage, I think Marvel tried to hedge their best on the racism thing.

Someone needs to read Truth: Red White and Black, the story of Isaiah Bradley.

Hells yes they do.

 

[Kinguendo]

You cant get irrational people to realise your point through rational debate... making a metaphor of persecution into a group of individuals, both good and bad and having some being relatable is the best hope of getting through to the afore mentioned hopelessly irrational bigots.

Example: You represent the black community as a group of white people who are persecuted for being born diffent to the majority, this effectively bypasses the colour blindfold of ignorance that racists wear allowing them to see the damage, pain and irrationality of such hatred as well as empaphizing with the victims who would and maybe have been victims of their own words and actions previously.

It is fairly obvious that there will have been a fair few bigotted individuals who were and are fans of the X-Men.

Is that true though? Would a Bigot even catch on to that message in the text?

I mean you and I can see that cause we're modestly intelligent. I won't say I have the purest of all hearts, but when I find joy in a somewhat racist joke I'm very self aware that it's not appropriate.

I don't think racists/bigots see themselves as racists/bigots.

Yeah, akin to very obviously "evil" people not realising that they are in fact "evil". I doubt any Dictator wakes up, looks themselves in the mirror and just thinks "What a c*nt!".

Rationalising your own flaws is sadly what every human does, BUT not realising you are racist wouldnt stop a message you would normally ignore or outright fight from reaching you by configuring the information to a more palatable taste for the demographic you are trying to educate. The rest is just hoping they have the capacity to realise their own flaws and change accordingly.

 

[TheSteeleStrap]

I heard Spiderman is going to be black in the rebooted comics. Killing off Peter Parker and replacing him with a new guy.