So how is the gay marriage ruling going to impact you?

[Jake Martinez]

@Jake Martinez: Not going to respond to my post? I'm not shocked.

There's nothing really to respond to? I don't even necessarily disagree (or agree) with your interpretation of religious texts, or anyone elses interpretation of religious texts because that's not the issue at play here.

Suffice it to say, the issue is one where a significant portion of the population has an interpretation that is different than yours, and historically since we live in a pluralistic society, we have never made the "official" determination that one sects interpretation of religion is more valid than another. This is why the government can't do things like promote one religion over another in public school (through school prayer, or nativity scenes at Christmas, etc). I've always thought that this was the correct course of action and I'm not about to abandon that line of thinking because it suits me to do so.

Sorry?

The reason I talk about agreement is because of the gun to their head comparison. It's the difference between following an order because you'll die versus following an order because you agree with it.

The thing is people have many irrational fears. We shouldn't let those rule society or have undue influence. It's not a matter of empathy so much as it is I think that the irrational fears of Christianity get undue weight here over any other given irrational fear. Think no one in the KKK legitimately believes that other races will bring down the nation?

I don't think we are picking winners and losers. I don't think their right to religious freedom comes into it because I do not believe it extends that far. Nor do I believe it should. I do not think the source of the belief should be an excuse short of mental illness. And I don't need to soothe my conscious. I don't think anything bad is happening to them except in their heads. And I see it the same as with race. I do not see some further justification for them because of their religion so I don't need an excuse to feel better. And I do not see their rights being infringed at all. I believe in a secular society.

People who hold unpopular opinions? Oh come on. It isn't being attacked for its unpopularity. The problem with it is not it's unpopularity.

And the fact it came down to a Supreme Court decision certainly is a failure. Of those legislatures that tried to ban it or failed to pass it. Or the populace of the states that tried to ban it.

I get it. You don't have any empathy for these people - the fact that you repeatedly refer to them as "irrational" doesn't leave much room for interpretation here. I admit that I have to struggle to find this myself since I am not a religious person.

I do want to bring up one point however - In your comparison to the KKK there is a huge difference, which is something that we're sort of touching on but not really addressing head on. There is no Constitutional guarantee to racist beliefs, but there is a Constitutional guarantee to Religious Freedom. Like it or not, Religion has a special status in our Constitution and as such we need to deal with these people's rights to Religion with just as much sincerity as we do when it comes to individual or civil rights.

So absolutely, this is a case of balancing the rights of two groups against each other. Generally speaking this is a pretty hard thing to do, my point I suppose about all of this is that it's made infinitely harder when we pursue a campaign of demonizing people for holding specific religious views or religion in general. So long as religion is protected by the constitution, this is never going to lead anywhere productive.

I know it's a tired old chestnut, but remember that people's views change over time. It wasn't that long ago when not only were gays denied the right to get married, but they could actually be arrested for having sex - a massive violation of someones civil rights, but endorsed by society at the time.

What allowed for this to be changed was not that people miraculously became enlightened about homosexuality, but instead people took seriously the guarantees and protections that the Constitution grants to all citizens. There were lawsuits. The ACLU got involved. There were court decisions. Eventually people won because the Constitution was on their side.

I'll be very blunt about this: I am a big believer in the idea of a "Free and Open Society" and a huge supporter of Liberalism as a political philosophy. I want as much individual liberty for every human being as possible because I believe that this is good not just for them, but that it safeguards my liberty as well. I'm not convinced that in this particular case we have reached an optimal solution and I see people actively not examining the issue by rationalizing it in ways that equates religion to things like racism (really??) in what is obviously just an attempt to de-legitimize an argument rather than engaging in it and looking for a solution.

I admit, what I am asking for is hard. This is not an easy situation to solve otherwise logic would dictate that we would have solved it already. It's further made difficult because the two sides do not interpret reality in the same way. I mean this in the literal sense of the word "reality" - Religious and non-Religious people live in separate worlds in terms of truth and consequences. Like it or not, but assuming that everyone who states religious objection is just secretly a hater of homosexuals really is bigotry. This is a situation where you can't have your cake and eat it too - either both sides are just religion haters, or homosexual haters, or both sides have legitimate grievances that need to be addressed. Anything else is just arguing in bad faith.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

The reason I talk about agreement is because of the gun to their head comparison. It's the difference between following an order because you'll die versus following an order because you agree with it.

The thing is people have many irrational fears. We shouldn't let those rule society or have undue influence. It's not a matter of empathy so much as it is I think that the irrational fears of Christianity get undue weight here over any other given irrational fear. Think no one in the KKK legitimately believes that other races will bring down the nation?

I don't think we are picking winners and losers. I don't think their right to religious freedom comes into it because I do not believe it extends that far. Nor do I believe it should. I do not think the source of the belief should be an excuse short of mental illness. And I don't need to soothe my conscious. I don't think anything bad is happening to them except in their heads. And I see it the same as with race. I do not see some further justification for them because of their religion so I don't need an excuse to feel better. And I do not see their rights being infringed at all. I believe in a secular society.

People who hold unpopular opinions? Oh come on. It isn't being attacked for its unpopularity. The problem with it is not it's unpopularity.

And the fact it came down to a Supreme Court decision certainly is a failure. Of those legislatures that tried to ban it or failed to pass it. Or the populace of the states that tried to ban it.

I get it. You don't have any empathy for these people - the fact that you repeatedly refer to them as "irrational" doesn't leave much room for interpretation here. I admit that I have to struggle to find this myself since I am not a religious person.

I do want to bring up one point however - In your comparison to the KKK there is a huge difference, which is something that we're sort of touching on but not really addressing head on. There is no Constitutional guarantee to racist beliefs, but there is a Constitutional guarantee to Religious Freedom. Like it or not, Religion has a special status in our Constitution and as such we need to deal with these people's rights to Religion with just as much sincerity as we do when it comes to individual or civil rights.

So absolutely, this is a case of balancing the rights of two groups against each other. Generally speaking this is a pretty hard thing to do, my point I suppose about all of this is that it's made infinitely harder when we pursue a campaign of demonizing people for holding specific religious views or religion in general. So long as religion is protected by the constitution, this is never going to lead anywhere productive.

I know it's a tired old chestnut, but remember that people's views change over time. It wasn't that long ago when not only were gays denied the right to get married, but they could actually be arrested for having sex - a massive violation of someones civil rights, but endorsed by society at the time.

What allowed for this to be changed was not that people miraculously became enlightened about homosexuality, but instead people took seriously the guarantees and protections that the Constitution grants to all citizens. There were lawsuits. The ACLU got involved. There were court decisions. Eventually people won because the Constitution was on their side.

I'll be very blunt about this: I am a big believer in the idea of a "Free and Open Society" and a huge supporter of Liberalism as a political philosophy. I want as much individual liberty for every human being as possible because I believe that this is good not just for them, but that it safeguards my liberty as well. I'm not convinced that in this particular case we have reached an optimal solution and I see people actively not examining the issue by rationalizing it in ways that equates religion to things like racism (really??) in what is obviously just an attempt to de-legitimize an argument rather than engaging in it and looking for a solution.

I admit, what I am asking for is hard. This is not an easy situation to solve otherwise logic would dictate that we would have solved it already. It's further made difficult because the two sides do not interpret reality in the same way. I mean this in the literal sense of the word "reality" - Religious and non-Religious people live in separate worlds in terms of truth and consequences. Like it or not, but assuming that everyone who states religious objection is just secretly a hater of homosexuals really is bigotry. This is a situation where you can't have your cake and eat it too - either both sides are just religion haters, or homosexual haters, or both sides have legitimate grievances that need to be addressed. Anything else is just arguing in bad faith.

It isn't a lack of empathy. It's not elevating their fears above other fears that have no evidence for them.

The KKK comparison was to further my point that there are many other irrational fears. It goes back to that gun to head comparison. It touches on your empathy talk. Plenty of irrational fears exist. We shouldn't be softer on the religious for it, and here I am speaking socially. Sadly we have to be softer in law TO A DEGREE.

The thing is it is a question of what degree they are protected. Seems to me they are not as protected as they think. And due to their bigotry I am not at all inclined to see that change. I am seeing no legitimate benefit to it.

The courts are saying their rights don't extend as far as they thought so it seems we are fine legally and socially I am seeing no reason to want it any other way. It's not like I'm seeing a reason to think their rights are violated.

I never said they were all haters. I do think they are bigots though. Is there some way in which they are not? The source of a belief being religious has no effect on whether it is bigotry or not

 

[WhiteNachos]

Not at all. I'm not friends with any gay people and I don't have any in my family (not that I avoid them it just turned out that way).

Well I guess I'll stop hearing about it after a while now that in the US it's practically a dead issue now. I'm wondering what issue American liberals will put all that focus into. My guess is making it illegal to fire someone for their sexuality.

 

[kmagaro74]

So for those in the US, the ruling about gay marriages being legal nationwide is a significant event, and I'm curious how it's going to impact others. Mostly in a professional manner, but also in a private angle.

For me, it's going to impact filing claims for veterans, as they will now be able to list their same sex partner as a spouse for benefits purposes. They will be able to provide them with medical coverage, provide them with education benefits, and let them receive widow benefits in the event that they die. Which I'm quite happy for.

Personally, it might mean I get to use my status as an ordained Dudeist Priest to marry some people. xD

So how, if at all, is the ruling going to impact you on a professional/personal level?

Well, I live in Mississippi, so now I get to hear about how the country is going to hell, new Sodom and Gomorrah, etc etc. Oh, and I get to listen to local politicians try to finagle and loophole their way around having to actually follow federal law (Mississippi, for example, is toying with the idea of just... not giving out state marriage licenses at all. To anybody. Any more). The amount of obliviousness to what happened the last time the South was on the wrong side of the history and tried to defy the federal government over a Civil rights issue is astonishing. This is not a fight we win, and this is not a fight we wind up coming out looking good in the end.

Also there are some pretty unnerving ads on the radio now. There was this ad about Christians needing to buy and fly their own Christian flag, because the US doesn't represent them any more, along with a countryish song about rising evil and having to stand up to it for the children, etc etc. It didn't help that people were already super-mad about people daring to question the Confederate flag and whether we should have it (the flag of a hostile, rebel nation that started a war to try and permanently break the US apart, resulting in the deaths of over 800,000 Americans, purely to try and prop on their own slavery-based economic system) as part of our official state flag still.

The fact that I am the only pseudo-democrat in my family (I tend to lean more left than right, but I don't consider myself a raging liberal or anything) just makes all this awkward for me in general.

Exactly the same on the whole "Sodom and Gomorrah" thing, everyone around me in Texas is talking about how this will end Christianity and shit, I'm like come on, we already know Christianity isn't true, don't make me prove it just to shove this back in your face

As far as I can tell here in Alabama, it's not that bad. Our governor took down the confederate flag over the capitol like two days after the shootings? Really quick in my opinion. And I've yet to hear anyone around here start bitching about "the fags" or anything. Which is funny in a way, because I've had people in our waiting room, decide to turn it into an impromptu sermon, talking about "The Bible says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" But yeah, so far, even here, the response seems to be roughly *shrug* "meh". Which I'm quite happy about.

As for how things are for you in Texas, you might try moving to Austin (if you don't already live there). It's a pretty laid back city by comparison to the rest of Texas from what I hear. It's also the home for the Atheist Coalition of Austin, who host the Atheist Experience public access show. So you might hear less of it around there.

I'm in San Antonio so I'm close enough, I can't stand Austin's traffic and how crowded it is. I'm much happier once I go back to college in Lubbock, Surprisingly, it's much less conservative.