So if "nintendo hard" came back into style , would you be for or against it ?
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Well, Demon Souls wasn't brutally difficult, it was always fair and you just had to be cautious, though it was a nice diversion from the trend of making everything easier.ZeroMachine said:
OT: I like challenging games and I play pretty much everything, though games in the style of danmaku's (bullet-hell) aren't my cup of tea
The precision and skill part, yeah.
The having to memorise certain patterns to get through, not so much... but they can have their place if not overdone and not insanely complex.
When I do occasionally get properly into a modern game I do find them almost insultingly easy, and therefore both short and uninteresting, which is one reason I can't often be bothered. Though "difficulty levels" also seem to have gone by-the-by. I was never "Nightmare" hardcore, but I could certainly handle "Hurt Me Plenty", etc.
The having to memorise certain patterns to get through, not so much... but they can have their place if not overdone and not insanely complex.
When I do occasionally get properly into a modern game I do find them almost insultingly easy, and therefore both short and uninteresting, which is one reason I can't often be bothered. Though "difficulty levels" also seem to have gone by-the-by. I was never "Nightmare" hardcore, but I could certainly handle "Hurt Me Plenty", etc.
No, that kind of difficulty, that was just incredibly poor games design, I don't want it back and I feel bad so many people do. I don't want to have to grind the crap out of Mass Effect 3 because someone's nostalgic for some awful, awful RPGs.
But new-school difficulty like Super Meat Boy and Demon's Souls? Yeah a bit more of that in the right places is pretty cool.
But new-school difficulty like Super Meat Boy and Demon's Souls? Yeah a bit more of that in the right places is pretty cool.
Against. Militantly against. Who in this world wants another game as hard as Battletoads? Who here wants another Karate Kid? Another Ninja Gaiden? Yes the new ones are hard, but not legendarily hard like the first ones.
If Nintendo hard were brought back, it should only be for a very very few hardcore games. A Bionic Commando-esque remake of Battletoads could go over well, for example
If Nintendo hard were brought back, it should only be for a very very few hardcore games. A Bionic Commando-esque remake of Battletoads could go over well, for example
Against. I didn't own a Nintendo console when "Nintendo hard" was the norm and I would absolutely not do so now.
I play to relax. I play to have fun. I play to be entertained.
Being punished by a "cheating" or "oh, you are not a supercomputer?" kind of AI is not my idea of fun and entertaining relaxation.
I play to relax. I play to have fun. I play to be entertained.
Being punished by a "cheating" or "oh, you are not a supercomputer?" kind of AI is not my idea of fun and entertaining relaxation.
I agree with this. That's also why I got Demon's Souls. Neither of these games are replicating "Nintendo Hard." If Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are brutal and difficult, why can't they just be their own difficulty? I'd rather call them From Software Hard, than Nintendo Hard. Armored Cored wasn't exactly a cake wake for me, and neither was Demon's Souls, but they nailed that kind of difficulty, while retaining their fairness.ZeroMachine said:
I just want games to be more challenging, more exciting, more fun. But that's just me.
"Nintendo Hard" is often an option these days, even in games which purists would decry as lamo-contempo mainstream. I didn't even consider doing a hardcore run in Dead Space 2. I just knew that whatever sense of accomplishment could be gleaned from it would be sullied by hours of frustration followed by self-loathing and a broken controller or two. It really is just a relic of a time when people wanted to milk their 8 bit games for all they were worth.
Nintendo hard with shoddy controls, X-lives-and-then-game-over, one hit kills, lots of grinding and/or surprise deaths? No.
That was a large part of the difficulty back then. I'm thinking of roguelikes in general here too - Nethack is actually pretty poorly designed despite its popularity.
Demons' Souls/Dark Souls or Devil May Cry 3's style of "Nintendo Hard" is something I quite like. The problem with most games is that even if they have a system with a lot of options, those options aren't really tailored in such a way to provide a diverse experience; and/or there are no challenges within the game that are hard and well-designed enough get the player to change their tactics substantially. The aforementioned games solve that.
I'd love a option-heavy model that scrapped memorization and reflex-based challenges even more, but that's an untested game design I'm trying to work on.
Super Meat Boy is an exceptional design of some very simple game ideas. It has the best traits of the old-school Nintendo Hard and scrapped losing progress outside of a very short level, but given the simple platforming focus it's still not one of my preferred games.
The thing is that most old-school games really didn't afford you enough choices to be able to make a tactically challenging game. The major variables they had were how much of a margin of error you were allowed and how much they would punish you for screwing up, and thus most hard games played pretty much the same as easy games; they just had much less forgiving thresholds. To me, the best part about games are using the game mechanics creatively to solve a problem, so just memorizing and exploiting attack patterns tends to get boring.
That was a large part of the difficulty back then. I'm thinking of roguelikes in general here too - Nethack is actually pretty poorly designed despite its popularity.
Demons' Souls/Dark Souls or Devil May Cry 3's style of "Nintendo Hard" is something I quite like. The problem with most games is that even if they have a system with a lot of options, those options aren't really tailored in such a way to provide a diverse experience; and/or there are no challenges within the game that are hard and well-designed enough get the player to change their tactics substantially. The aforementioned games solve that.
I'd love a option-heavy model that scrapped memorization and reflex-based challenges even more, but that's an untested game design I'm trying to work on.
Super Meat Boy is an exceptional design of some very simple game ideas. It has the best traits of the old-school Nintendo Hard and scrapped losing progress outside of a very short level, but given the simple platforming focus it's still not one of my preferred games.
The thing is that most old-school games really didn't afford you enough choices to be able to make a tactically challenging game. The major variables they had were how much of a margin of error you were allowed and how much they would punish you for screwing up, and thus most hard games played pretty much the same as easy games; they just had much less forgiving thresholds. To me, the best part about games are using the game mechanics creatively to solve a problem, so just memorizing and exploiting attack patterns tends to get boring.
No.
(You want more or I'm being reported? sheesh...)
Ok, I think you're either in one of two positions, you've either got the cash to buy games, but little time to play them, or time, but not the disposable income to buy them.
I think for most people struggling to fit gaming in around work, social lives, and other things, like sleep, we want to play games for the pleasure of it, to see the story, to try fun things out, and just to have fun.
I just don't think 'challenge' is at the forefront of gaming any more.
(You want more or I'm being reported? sheesh...)
Ok, I think you're either in one of two positions, you've either got the cash to buy games, but little time to play them, or time, but not the disposable income to buy them.
I think for most people struggling to fit gaming in around work, social lives, and other things, like sleep, we want to play games for the pleasure of it, to see the story, to try fun things out, and just to have fun.
I just don't think 'challenge' is at the forefront of gaming any more.
Against, I'm fine with a few niche titles like that but I would hate for all games to be like that. Unless I can cheat. Sometimes it's fun to beat a game for the challenge, other times I just like to go CUHRAAAZY! Such as getting mad at DMC3 so I cheat to unlock heaven and hell mode and just steamroll the game.
Really? I didn't find it that hard. Now trying to get a Platinum overall on chapter 14. THAT's hard.hazabaza1 said:
I always had a problem with that episode/argument because depth and difficulty aren't mutually-exclusive concepts.the spud said:
You can have a difficult, but deep game.
Yup. As long as it didn't become the standard... more difficult games, but not only difficult games.