So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[hazabaza1]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

That same female character is also heavily implied to be one of the most powerful characters in the game universe and represents the Id of the main character, essentially being the only thing from stopping him going postal.

Also I highly doubt she was supposed to be a trophy as, again, it's implied that once she's saved (from a very real situation but we can't talk about that hush hush sexism) she freely chooses to become romantically involved with the player character rather than him holding her ransom. Again, probably part of the Id representation.

Other than that, the second most prominent female character is probably the hardest boss in the game, and is neither a damsel nor a victim unless you count being killed by the player as victimizing in which case (because someone has to say this) the game is sexist towards men because every male character excluding the Protagonist is portrayed as insane and bloodthirsty, whilst being completely faceless and only exist to be killed for amusement.

But honestly, in the nitty gritty, Hotline Miami is a game about killing people and having fun with it. I don't quite understand how people can get the idea that it is sexist, and if it really is sexist it's by no means "horribly" sexist. There's far worse things in the gaming industry to get up in arms about.

I never made the Id connection on my playthroughs, its an interesting thought.

Personally I considered her to be a mirror of the sort of purgatory/neutral suspension the protagonist exists in. The slow decay of jackets apartment, and the interaction with the same clerk wearing different hats in every store implied to me that he existed as a person having agency only when killing and simply persisted in all other times. When you pick the hooker up I didn't really think you were saving her, just deferring her death to a later time. It seems a given that she would have died if left in the building, but similarly jacket could never let her leave the apartment alive having seen what she did. So she existed in a sort of empty space between life and death, only being able to direct her own existence so long as she remained in the apartment, just as jacket only existed in the bloody patches between the apartment and the video store.

There's some talk among the community that's more interested in this that I am that talk about the three Dons being the Id, Ego and Super-Ego. Don Juan (the horse mask and hooker) is the Id, calm and more compassionate, keeping things grounded and... relatively stable.

Richard (the chicken mask) is the Ego, the most neutral, questioning the things you're doing in a passive way. Also wears the same clothes your protagonist wears so there' a hint there.

Rasmus (the owl mask) is the Super-Ego, constantly aggressive and living in a really morbid area. Also wears the same clothes the Russian gangsters do so there's some extra hint of antagonism there.

 

[EvilRoy]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

That same female character is also heavily implied to be one of the most powerful characters in the game universe and represents the Id of the main character, essentially being the only thing from stopping him going postal.

Also I highly doubt she was supposed to be a trophy as, again, it's implied that once she's saved (from a very real situation but we can't talk about that hush hush sexism) she freely chooses to become romantically involved with the player character rather than him holding her ransom. Again, probably part of the Id representation.

Other than that, the second most prominent female character is probably the hardest boss in the game, and is neither a damsel nor a victim unless you count being killed by the player as victimizing in which case (because someone has to say this) the game is sexist towards men because every male character excluding the Protagonist is portrayed as insane and bloodthirsty, whilst being completely faceless and only exist to be killed for amusement.

But honestly, in the nitty gritty, Hotline Miami is a game about killing people and having fun with it. I don't quite understand how people can get the idea that it is sexist, and if it really is sexist it's by no means "horribly" sexist. There's far worse things in the gaming industry to get up in arms about.

I never made the Id connection on my playthroughs, its an interesting thought.

Personally I considered her to be a mirror of the sort of purgatory/neutral suspension the protagonist exists in. The slow decay of jackets apartment, and the interaction with the same clerk wearing different hats in every store implied to me that he existed as a person having agency only when killing and simply persisted in all other times. When you pick the hooker up I didn't really think you were saving her, just deferring her death to a later time. It seems a given that she would have died if left in the building, but similarly jacket could never let her leave the apartment alive having seen what she did. So she existed in a sort of empty space between life and death, only being able to direct her own existence so long as she remained in the apartment, just as jacket only existed in the bloody patches between the apartment and the video store.

There's some talk among the community that's more interested in this that I am that talk about the three Dons being the Id, Ego and Super-Ego. Don Juan (the horse mask and hooker) is the Id, calm and more compassionate, keeping things grounded and... relatively stable.

Richard (the chicken mask) is the Ego, the most neutral, questioning the things you're doing in a passive way. Also wears the same clothes your protagonist wears so there' a hint there.

Rasmus (the owl mask) is the Super-Ego, constantly aggressive and living in a really morbid area. Also wears the same clothes the Russian gangsters do so there's some extra hint of antagonism there.

The ideas are pretty interesting, I guess I'll have to look up some of these theories. And also brush up on my psychology of the Id.

 

[Six Ways]

but in Hotline Miami 1, it was okay when you smack the russian gangster in the head with a bat.... It doesn't kill him, and he's crawling on the floor clearly in pain and you walk over and smash his head in?

Well... no. It wasn't ok. That's the point - it's supposed to be sickening, and despite the 16-bit graphics, it truly is. I love Hotline Miami, and a lot of it made me feel almost physically sick.

So, while in general I am of the opinion that people have to be very careful about rape in any sort of media[footnote]some of you may have noticed in other threads I'm a pretty outspoken feminist[/footnote], games included, my personal opinion is that avoiding it in HM would be the wrong idea. Even though, as has been said, it's not "actually" rape.

Hotline Miami is about holding a mirror to the vile shit you do without thinking in other games. So to make it palatable would at best miss the point, and at worst actually turn it into a celebration of violence.

I would also say that part of portraying violence and rape in art and media is the use of the right platforms. For instance, it would not be cool to have a rape scene in a family-oriented comedy film, because people gon' get triggered. But no-one who thinks they'll get triggered is going to play a game like Hotline Miami, so if you're going to portray rape... it's the right place to do it.

"The fact that she wasn't raped is irrelevant" yeah it was because even if you failed the QTE you were killed not raped, so that really invalidates any point you make based on this.

I don't think your argument is correct here. You have no way of knowing she's not about to get raped. A rape survivor could get triggered regardless, for instance. If you win the QTE, you may never find out she wasn't in the process of being raped.

I do think that whole thing was overblown, but it was not handled with the sensitivity it should have been.

My comment about desensitisation was more a jab at that being the excuse people tend to give for there being a lack of controversy over something they think is offensive.

Perhaps by people you're meaning the media, but I can't think of when someone on these forums has claimed such things are desensitising. Normalisation is not the same as desensitisation.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

ot every game needs to give a balanced attention to each gender to avoid being sexist and your claim that the game shows women as weak is a lie because it actually only shows a SPECIFIC female character as weak. (Not the same thing)

When she's the the absolute most prominent character and featured in the advertising in sexual victim mode, it's pretty explicit that the game is far more likely to see women as weak rather than strong.

The game doesn't see women as anything and the same goes for men, this game makes no commentary on gender issues and should be taken as such. Art and media only comment on specific social issues if they choose to do so and bringing in concepts that are not relevant is futile, saying Hotline miami is bad because it make no attempt to represent genders equally is missing the point of the game.

Nah dude. She's a woman in a refrigerator trope. She exists just to give Jacket/player something to care about, and to be upset about when we find her

Spoiler

killed

Using female 'tropes' is not indicative of sexism even on its own and when it's coupled with equally flat male characters its just down to bad characterization (or purposely bad characterization in the case of Hotline Miami). Again I don't see how people can level the claim of sexism against Hotline Miami when it makes no attempt to portray any characters accurately. Media and art should not be put up to the scrutiny of real life values because that misses their purpose, they do not attempt to be an accurate reflection of all real life socio-political problems and ideals but only SOME (or maybe even non at all). And questioning how well Hotline Miami portrayed genders is as silly as asking how well did Star Wars portray environmental issues, it's simply not relevant.

I mean I know it's suppose to be subverting the male power fantasy, but at the same time just the fact it's an entertainment medium makes it unintentionally glamorous. like I can totally see a deranged mind going on a killing spree and claim this game inspired them to do it, the same way the films "natural born Killers" and "Taxi Driver" inspired other mad men.

so it is, at least, unintentionally sexist in ways. Plus the games promo art doesn't help, which is the male character dragging the half naked and badly beaten hooker while being swarmed by russians.

EDIT: Mind you, I love that art work so much it's the background of my Twitter and facebook pages.

 

[Brown_Coat117]

It's not really feminists or whatever who blow this stuff up out of proportion, it's the people who freak out whenever anyone tries to discuss the subject of gender in video games. Again, look at all the people yelling about censorship and insisting that video games can't contain rape, and then look at the actual negative reactions to the scene (which aren't even from the OP, but from people who just happened to drop by the thread). You've got one person calling it "repulsive" on the first page, and aside from that these are the most "extreme" reactions:

"I find it distasteful in general, not just because of that one scene."
"It's pretty tasteless. Game devs are free to do what they like, of course.
"I really can't endorse these guys including it unless it really is absolutely fundamental to the game."
"Meh."

Being honest both sides had their reasonable people and their lunatics. Most conversations I was involved in always seemed to have several people saying that devs shouldn't be allowed include anything like the scene that they had imagined in their head in games, and dealing with those censorship happy morons undoubtedly colored my view of the entire mess as surely dealing with the morons on the other side of the fence colored yours.

 

[Brown_Coat117]

I don't think your argument is correct here. You have no way of knowing she's not about to get raped. A rape survivor could get triggered regardless, for instance. If you win the QTE, you may never find out she wasn't in the process of being raped.

I do think that whole thing was overblown, but it was not handled with the sensitivity it should have been.

I don't subscribe to the ignorance justification school of thought. If something you don't know bothers you, you should enlighten yourself. Even if your conclusion is the same at least you will be reacting to what is and not what might be.

The main point of my argument, which you don't seem to take issue with, is that scene's narrative thrust is not about the actual assault but how Lara deals with it, and the implications for her character going forward from that point. In that context what type of assault it "could have been" becomes largely secondary if not completely eclipsed by the fact that she has for the first time shot someones face off and has to deal with it. Granted this was undercut by the her suddenly becoming Rambo after killing a man in self-defense.

Genuinely wondering how you would have preferred they handle it more sensitively?

As far as what can trigger a victim, do you honestly have any clue the massive amount of stuff that can cause that? They are as numerous if not more so than the the number of victims themselves. As someone who has had to deal personally with that aspect of sexual assault, and infant leukemia in an era where they didn't medicate children for pain while they preformed spinal taps and bone marrow scrapes, good times, I can vouch for how much it sucks. I don't look down at someone who couldn't make past that part in Tomb Raider or Hotline just as I would hope that they wouldn't look down of me for having controllable panic attacks in hospitals. I do look down on those who expect society to cater to their ever impulse regardless of how legit the cause is.

 

[Hazy]

You want to know why rape is acceptable in a game like this?
It's because Hotline Miami is a game about deplorable psychopaths doing deplorable things that a psychopath would do. It's one thing to say that X is a bad guy, but it's so much more to SHOW why X is a bad guy.

And people will still throw a ***** fit over it because "m-muh feelings!" and once again hinder what is, essentially, artistic expression for the sake of their own selfish views or the sole purpose of generating hits. I'm looking at you, Kotaku.

 

[Soopy]

For what its worth. I think its good that developers depict all sorts of terrible scenarios. The only stipulation I have is that they do the horrific instance justice. Don't sugar coat the act and the lasting effects. Show it for what it is, and give it context.

People may be traumatised by it. But you know what? They should be. If you knowingly expose yourself to things of that nature and aren't influenced in some way by it, you might want to speak to a doctor. Ignoring horrible occurrences does nothing to help previous victims, nor does it do anything but perpetuate it indirectly by not addressing it.

If developers can use things such as rape, to show how ugly and destructive it is, in a context that is truthful and accurate, then I have no issue with it.
People who are sensitive to the topic should avoid titles that contain it, this is why we have rating systems.

You want to know why rape is acceptable in a game like this?
It's because Hotline Miami is a game about deplorable psychopaths doing deplorable things that a psychopath would do. It's one thing to say that X is a bad guy, but it's so much more to SHOW why X is a bad guy.

And people will still throw a ***** fit over it because "m-muh feelings!" and once again hinder what is, essentially, artistic expression for the sake of their own selfish views or the sole purpose of generating hits. I'm looking at you, Kotaku.

EXACTLY.

There is a lot of bad things in this world. The only way any of it is ever dealt with, is to address the issue. Ignorance perpetuates despair.

 

[pyers]

Wow so your telling me a game where you run around and murder without restraint has ... *gasp* OTHER ADULT THEMES.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

Whoa. So head bashing with a bat, on the floor, slitting the throat with the knife, bottling them, chop someone in half, pressure someone's eye out until it pops, shooting people, shooting dogs, bricking them and most of all hit them with trophies AND bash them against the floor are okay but when rape comes in it's bad.

What a world are we live in?

 

[Sunrider]

Couldn't you rape in one of the old fall out games? I seem to remember something like that.
Hm, who cares?

I don't remember being able to rape anyone or anything in any Fallout game, and I've played them all.
There is, however, one situation you can get into where you can get drugged and raped in a room where it's all recorded as an amateur sex video.

 

[sumanoskae]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; depiction is not support, in fact it's often the opposite. By refusing to acknowledge the grotesque aspects of our existence we make them stronger, not weaker.

Further more, I'd rather something be said openly and in bad taste than no said at all. Sometimes being loudly and aggressively corrected is the only thing that will open your eyes.

 

[Brown_Coat117]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; depiction is not support, in fact it's often the opposite. By refusing to acknowledge the grotesque aspects of our existence we make them stronger, not weaker.

Further more, I'd rather something be said openly and in bad taste than no said at all. Sometimes being loudly and aggressively corrected is the only thing that will open your eyes.

Got to say this sums up my opinion exactly. Nice avatar BTW.

 

[Hazy]

And people will still throw a ***** fit over it because "m-muh feelings!" and once again hinder what is, essentially, artistic expression for the sake of their own selfish views or the sole purpose of generating hits. I'm looking at you, Kotaku.

Who is throwing a ***** fit? Who has actually really complained about this scene? The OP isn't. Kotaku hasn't. No one in this thread is.

So many people in this thread swatting at ghosts, it's crazy.

Don't pretend for one second that Patricia Hernandez won't make an article about this shit.

Don't you even pretend.

 

[Hazy]

Don't pretend for one fucking second that Patricia Hernandez won't make a goddamn article about this shit.

Don't you even pretend.

Oookay...

*backs away slowly*

You're right. Other people who definitely aren't you really need to calm down.

But maybe ... maybe you could wait until people actually say something before you start yelling at them about it? Because Patricia Hernandez hasn't written about "this shit", and the preview has been out for a couple of days now. Actually, no one's complained about it. At all. So who exactly are you so angry at?

I edited my post immediately after sending it, since that came off as unnescessarily aggressive. Believe me, that wasn't my intention.

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light." I'm not necessarily saying that it will happen, but it's very likely going to, given that even something as minor as trash-talk at Microsoft's E3 press-conference was enough to draw ire from the community.

Hope that clears some things up.

 

[Fordo]

the game is about shock, violence, and shock. I'm not surprised rape would find its way in there. Does violence not give the same shock as it did in the wolfenstein/doom II days? Is this the next step the industry takes?

 

[Generic4me]

The reason this is a problem is because 1 out of every 6 women have been a victim of rape or attempted rape.

Yes, murder > rape. But murdered people aren't alive to complain about how horrible these things are, and rape is pretty much the next most brutal crime (exceptions DO exist), it's humiliating, painful, and mentally scarring, and you have to turn to a society that lets a huge number of these people go. Almost everybody knows somebody whom was a victim of this.

By having this topic in their game, they bring it up, and can cause a lot of pain of the remembrance of the event, and the event can't ever really be resolved, so it's just causing pointless pain.

It's only really a problem because so many women have gone through this. Yes, I'm sure a kidnapping scene in a game could freak the hell out of a person who was a victim of a kidnapping, (especially if it were fairly brutal) but there aren't many victims of kidnapping out there. In addition, there's better resources and no societal stigmas about being kidnapped.

This game will not further the discussion on rape, it's just going to feed another 5000 posts in this everlasting pissing contest until real people who actually matter (rights groups, lawmakers) work with these issues. No game could offer anything that hasn't already been said in ALL CAPS a million times. Not in a medium where we get 30 different AAA first and third person shooters each year.

So don't bring up the topic, we're not ready to handle it, and it doesn't add anything.

 

[thenoblitt]

I remember when something made you think, I put value in it, not try to hide it and ***** about how its offending, god I wish people weren't such fucking babies.