So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[Yuuki]

Another oft-used fallacy - that "market forces" and "sexism" are mutually exclusive. The market's imbalance towards males could be caused by subconscious societal sexism. In my personal opinion, that is highly likely.

Are you going to tell me with a straight face that after watching this video (it's only 2 mins long, don't worry )...


...you're going to continue to maintain that "subconscious societal sexism" is highly likely as a factor?

Here's a free hands-on lesson - Google Image search "game development team" and let me know what you see on the first page of results. Is subconscious societal sexism at work in all those cases? Hmmmm?

 

[Six Ways]

snip

Surely you see that subconscious societal sexism could be why there are so few female game devs? And I absolutely agree that if we had more women as game devs, then we'd be a long way towards solving the problem. But if the industry is hostile to women, that's less likely to happen. Again, this isn't an either-or thing[footnote]Also, the idea that men shouldn't even try to create female-friendly art? Not buying that.[/footnote].

 

[Yuuki]

Surely you see that subconscious societal sexism could be why there are so few female game devs?

Oh, so women not being interested in Programming/3D Design and choosing other careers = societal sexism.

Lack of male interest in becoming social workers = societal sexism.

Lack of female interest in F1 Racing = societal sexism.

Lack of male interest in becoming nurses = societal sexism.

Lack of female interest in becoming construction workers = societal sexism.

Lack of male interest in the beauty industry = societal sexism

So THAT's what societal sexism means. I finally get your definition. And apparently it's always a bad/negative thing that needs to be fixed/addressed. Wow.
They tried to forcefully change the gender ratios in occupations in Norway (repeatedly), I'll let you research how that turned out.

 

[Something Amyss]

And people will still throw a ***** fit over it because "m-muh feelings!"

'Course, that usually doesn't happen. The lack of hysteria here is a pretty good example.

So many people in this thread swatting at ghosts, it's crazy.

Gamers are so afraid of real feminists they have to attack the ones made of straw.

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light."

You're right, people shouldn't criticise free expression. I hope one day, you will see the irony here.

Uh oh. A game is getting mixed up with the r-word. Even though it appears that the scene is... well a scene I doubt that will appease the angry mobs. Remember how they got pissed off at the not-actually-a-rape-scene-in-any-way in Tomb Raider? This will probably be worse. There's butt-crack!

So I'll be holing up in my bunker and playing Half Life 2 until the inevitable shitstorm blows over.

Seems appropriate.

Well, the movie Irréversible had rape in it too.

Since this is supposed to be a sort of throwback "exploitation flick" game, it'd be strange for it to not feature any sexual violence. 70's and 80's exploitation films were choke full of it, so if it's paying homage to them, it'd be strange to leave out that element entirely.

Plus, easy controversy = free publicity... which is also how exploitation films did things.

I wonder if that means HM has failed. The only "controversy" that's come up so far is from people insisting there will be controversy from those imaginary feminazis who obsess over every portrayal of rape in media ever....

Since it hasn't met any controversy, does that mean it's missed the point and/or failed?

 

[Six Ways]

Oh, so women not being interested in Programming/3D Design and choosing other careers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming social workers = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in F1 Racing = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming nurses = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in becoming construction workers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in the beauty industry = societal sexism

Um, basically yeah. Considering, for example, from birth we get boys to play with cars and girls to play with dolls, is it that much of a stretch to ask how much gender difference may, in fact, be non-biological?

You seem reluctant to consider the possibility that the imbalance in the games industry could be cultural. I'm not trying to force you to agree - just to not reject it out of hand. Seriously, not trying to be antagonistic here.

And apparently it's always a bad/negative thing that needs to be fixed/addressed. Wow.

No. Never said that. But a bit of critical analysis, and asking why these imbalances exist, isn't too much to ask.

They tried to forcefully change the gender ratios in occupations in Norway (repeatedly), I'll let you research how that turned out.

I've been very explicit about being non-forceful.

 

[oreso]

Oh, so women not being interested in Programming/3D Design and choosing other careers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming social workers = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in F1 Racing = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in becoming nurses = societal sexism.
Lack of female interest in becoming construction workers = societal sexism.
Lack of male interest in the beauty industry = societal sexism

Um, basically yeah. Considering, for example, from birth we get boys to play with cars and girls to play with dolls, is it that much of a stretch to ask how much gender difference may, in fact, be non-biological?

There are certainly non-biological factors at work. Unfortunately, there also seems to be some significant biological ones.

Someone else will have to dig up the link, but research has been done to show that babies are attracted to stereotypical toys even from as early as one-day old. Which presents something of a problem if you wish to state that all gender identity is societal, and none of it is biological.

And as Yuuki mentioned, our most gender equal societies, who have invested quite a lot of money into trying to shift these demographics, end up with no more equal numbers than societies that make no effort at all and would be regarded as pretty sexist.

It's not that people haven't tried it. Or that everyone is being tricked or cajoled into acting according to their gender role. Large numbers of people just appear to freely choose it.

But still, of course, with game developers, we don't need vast numbers of people to create games. So I don't think it's a total loss or anything.

What practical measures would you suggest?

 

[Hazy]

-cut-

-cut-

Well, it seems I spoke out of turn, since the scene looks mild enough to abstain from criticism territory.

Videogames, huh?

[small]Of course, this doesn't mean Patricia Hernandez won't write an article about it influencing rape culture, but she has the journalistic credibility of a goat[/small]​

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, it seems I spoke out of turn, since the scene looks mild enough to abstain from criticism territory.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

Patricia Hernandez

And if she doesn't write an article saying that, I'm sure someone will be happy to doctor a fake one, attribute it to her, and post it as proof like they have already with her previously. And I'm sure that this will be proof enough for you folks to feel validated despite not being real. I mean, you yourself keep bringing her up though she's done nothing to merit it as yet.

 

[Hazy]

Well, it seems I spoke out of turn, since the scene looks mild enough to abstain from criticism territory.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

Oh, okay, allow me to put it in the much needed layman's terms: I'm withdrawing from the debate. I kicked up dust over nothing. I messed up. Frankly, I don't really care enough about feminism to debate the semantics of it.

I decided to tell both of you that, hence the quote.

And if she doesn't write an article saying that, I'm sure someone will be happy to doctor a fake one, attribute it to her, and post it as proof like they have already with her previously. And I'm sure that this will be proof enough for you folks to feel validated despite not being real. I mean, you yourself keep bringing her up though she's done nothing to merit it as yet.

You act as if the nuggets she has already made aren't warrant enough to cast a valid opinion on her.

Yeah, Hernandez sure does some hard hitting journalism huh?

 

[reiem531]

Jesus, who thought emulating Custer's Revenge was a good idea?

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

People survive rape and might not want to be reminded of it.

People survive being stabbed and might not want to be reminded of it.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

It seems kinda obvious to me.

You cant upset the victims of murder. You cant make them have flashbacks to their death. You cant offend them by making the action that killed them a sport. You cant make a simulation of their death for kids to relive over and over and over and then show it to them. Because they died.

You CAN do this with a rape surivor. Theres the difference.

The difference between assault survivors and rape survivors as well is the aspect of personal space and security in the crime.

Rape is taking something intimate and special that you share with those you love and violating it in every possible way to make it cruel and painful and horrific. It pretty much fucks up a huge part of your psychee forever. Being assaulted is usually less of a personal affair. They usually just want your wallet. Unless its extreme circumstances it doesnt violate you on a personal level to the degree rape does.

Now i dont think that media shouldnt have rape IN it or explore the issue of rape. However making the character commit rape and making committing the rape a sport is pretty distasteful. Theres something impersonal about making a headshot. Forcing another person to surrender their inner most safe place to your twisted desires is kinda personal and weird and implies a level of sadism that a detatched "Yay i shot some very far away pixels" doesnt.

The media needs to explore rape and highlight the issue. Forcing a player to commit a rape doesnt really help this in a meaningful way. Im not gonna say they CANT do it or it shouldnt be allowed. I just find it personally extremely distasteful. Id find any violent act thats as personal and involves mental and physical violation as distasteful as rape in a game.

 

[infinity_turtles]

Not the same thing, but reading this thread I couldn't help but be reminded of the article about the gaming soldier with PTSD who used either CoD or Battlefield to help desensitize himself to his triggers.

Anyway, don't really care what kind of horrible things are done to fictional people. As for real people being traumatized by it, the game presents itself as pretty horrible, so if you have triggers of any sort you should really know better then to seek out this sort of media. If you don't have triggers and are just offended by the idea, I have to say I think that finding something offensive is one of the weakest criticisms that exist, and those sort of complaints rank right up there with trying to call out a game for being a genre you don't like(unless it's a sequel that changed genres, but that's a whole other can of worms).

*editted*Replaced it with itself for clarity.

 

[hazabaza1]

There's some talk among the community that's more interested in this that I am that talk about the three Dons being the Id, Ego and Super-Ego. Don Juan (the horse mask and hooker) is the Id, calm and more compassionate, keeping things grounded and... relatively stable.

Richard (the chicken mask) is the Ego, the most neutral, questioning the things you're doing in a passive way. Also wears the same clothes your protagonist wears so there' a hint there.

Rasmus (the owl mask) is the Super-Ego, constantly aggressive and living in a really morbid area. Also wears the same clothes the Russian gangsters do so there's some extra hint of antagonism there.

Forgive me for not reading this thread in its entirety, but I wanted to politely point out very quickly:

You seem to have the Id and Super-Ego swapped there. In Freud's theory of the unconscious, the Id is that which embodies all of our base, animalistic impulses: eat everything, drink everything, get wasted on everything, fuck everything, murder anyone for revenge, murder anyone for their possessions, murder anyone for disagreeing with your opinion. It is the Super-Ego that acts as a censor and neutralizes these unreasonable impulses. Unreasonable, in this instance, meaning that they are without reason, there is no thought behind them.

The Id says "eat a whole pint of ice cream," the super ego says "you will get fat and it will start to melt and it's a mess and your stomach will hurt." The Id says "murder that person because they made you angry" and the Super-Ego says "There's laws against that and it's not that big a deal and what would you do after that anyway?" Meanwhile the Ego is oblivious to this conversation, the Ego is only aware of the outcome of their struggle.

I unsure whether the mix-up in your post is the result of your error (totally forgivable!), or the game's creators, or someone else in the fandom community. Either way, Freud's theory of the unconscious is about as relevant to Psychology as Arstotle's elemental theory (the universe is composed of fire, water, earth, air) is to modern physics. Nowadays both are fun little theories that are useful for storytelling and game design, respectively, but have no bearing on reality in any scientific way.

Whoops, been a while since I did psychology in school and I got a lot of this from the fanbase.

But yeah I basically disregarded Freud after the first few lessons I had on him, but using his idea for a game setup is a neat enough idea.

 

[TwentyZeroes]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

 

[knight steel]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Brilliant post-the best first time post I have seen on this site-well done ^_^
Also WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST cookies will be mailed to you soon and please don't enter the basement if you value your sanity

 

[Dark Knifer]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Nice first post there mate welcome

Pretty much what that video said, movies, music and other mediums get a free pass so why not games as well.

 

[Hazy]

forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

Encouraging artists to analyse their subconscious ideals, and reconsider their opinion of the art they want to make, is not.

Artists have their ideals solely in mind when creating their art. It's the reason why Van Gogh's The Scream possesses a specific color palette: it was designed that way. It holds a distinct purpose. If he were to come back to life after all this time and say "Yeah, that smudge on the canvas was actually from where I dropped my cigarette, so I'm actually going to remove it," it wouldn't be the same image. It would not be a complete work of art.

Criticism can be and often is good. It constructs a better caliber of a people, and influences works of a higher quality. But we shouldn't necessarily condemn a fictional rape scene as "wrong," simply because it offends another person's ideals. And certainly not when it holds a fundamental purpose.

I guess Yahtzee is then the most pro-censorship game-journalist, then, and all the complaints about XBone are gamers being pro-censorship and everyone should just say positive things about any product. I'm really tired of people hiding from criticism with 'you're trying to censor me!'.
Especially when it comes to something like the portrayal of women in games.

If I criticise COD for being linear and dull, no-one is yelling at me for trying to censor it, for some reason...

The freedom of experession doesn't mean freedom from opposing viewpoints

Now you're taking what I said out of context. Again, criticism is inherently not bad, but when it stands to forsake an artist's work because it hurts your feelings, then you're crossing over into a whole new territory.

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

You would think so, but you would be wrong. Refer to the twitter discussion between Söderström and Blackclaw FM, and this video:

This isn't about feminism or objectification: it's about something so much more. This is about the freedoms of artistic expression and sticking to your guns when people find it mortifying.

 

[TwentyZeroes]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Brilliant post-the best first time post I have seen on this site-well done ^_^
Also WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST cookies will be mailed to you soon and please don't enter the basement if you value your sanity

Thank you! I've always liked the discussion on this site, it seems like even the shitstorms here are at least civil.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

All I remember from the Tomb Raider thing was a lot of people yelling "LAURAS GONNA GET RAPED" and it turned out she wasn't.

all we had to go one was the developer talking about it as rape and visual and audio cues. What fools we were to believe THAT.

lol.

Please don't ***** at others for not portraying the controversies right when you can't get them right your self. The "defininng, character-building moment for Lara Croft," was never about the actual assault.

That's not how the dev portrayed it, and it still looks like some heavy retconning went on after the fact. But if it makes you feel better to claim I'm misportraying people when the OP admitted he was just stirring the pot, then *shrug*

I would certainly feel foolish if I was one of those people, yes.

Lulz.