So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[Callate]

It's a violent, messed-up kind of game. Willfully and intentionally so. So was Hotline Miami.

It's also one game, one with an incredibly small development team.

If you think its content might offend you, don't play it. I think the developers have given more than fair warning that the game's content may disturb. I don't think it's in any way reasonable to suggest that it's either going to promote real-world imitation or somehow lead to the mainstreaming of rape as an acceptable course of action for video game protagonists.

Failing that criteria, what's left is "it offends me". Offending you, or me, or anyone, is not in and of itself enough reason for something to cease to exist. Poke around on the Internet for ten minutes and you will most likely find a dozen things you're okay with that at least one person thinks shouldn't exist.

I personally don't know if I'll ever play it. I only played the original when I could get it for about $2. But even if I absolutely despised it, that doesn't mean I have a right to say it shouldn't exist, or even that its developers shouldn't be able to make something consistent with their own ideas of how to interact with the player without editing that vision to please people who won't even necessarily play it.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It seems kinda obvious to me.

You cant upset the victims of murder. You cant make them have flashbacks to their death. You cant offend them by making the action that killed them a sport. You cant make a simulation of their death for kids to relive over and over and over and then show it to them. Because they died.

You CAN do this with a rape surivor. Theres the difference.

The difference between assault survivors and rape survivors as well is the aspect of personal space and security in the crime.

Rape is taking something intimate and special that you share with those you love and violating it in every possible way to make it cruel and painful and horrific. It pretty much fucks up a huge part of your psychee forever. Being assaulted is usually less of a personal affair. They usually just want your wallet. Unless its extreme circumstances it doesnt violate you on a personal level to the degree rape does.

Now i dont think that media shouldnt have rape IN it or explore the issue of rape. However making the character commit rape and making committing the rape a sport is pretty distasteful. Theres something impersonal about making a headshot. Forcing another person to surrender their inner most safe place to your twisted desires is kinda personal and weird and implies a level of sadism that a detatched "Yay i shot some very far away pixels" doesnt.

The media needs to explore rape and highlight the issue. Forcing a player to commit a rape doesnt really help this in a meaningful way. Im not gonna say they CANT do it or it shouldnt be allowed. I just find it personally extremely distasteful. Id find any violent act thats as personal and involves mental and physical violation as distasteful as rape in a game.

Aren't the real victims of murder the surviving relatives of the murdered? Couldn't you upset the mother of a boy who was murdered in cold blood?

I'll actually swing the otherway, I don't think any entertainment medium should ever really try to tackle anything super serious as to try to have an impact on people. Regardless of the material or how it's presented, so long as there is a fictional narrative at play it will always indirectly end up glamorizing it.

 

[knight steel]

I didn't make this video, but I came across it and I thought this thread could use it.

Brilliant post-the best first time post I have seen on this site-well done ^_^
Also WELCOME TO THE ESCAPIST cookies will be mailed to you soon and please don't enter the basement if you value your sanity

Thank you! I've always liked the discussion on this site, it seems like even the shitstorms here are at least civil.

Well the discussion on the site is good and certainly better than some other places however some shit storms can get pretty ugly or at least tiring as they have a habit of repeating themselves.
Anyway I look forward to seeing you around the forums as you slowly but surely gain a higher post count and become a daily contributor to this site-and remember have fun

 

[lacktheknack]

Crimes are crimes and hate crimes are hate crimes.

The whole "hate crime" thing is stupid. You don't know what was in somebody's head when they committed the crime.

I know what is in society's head and that is all you need.

Yes. Because I'm part of a society, I automagically think exactly like it. Never mind that I'm counter-cultural in a lot of ways, I'm part of a society and thus a model citizen of it.

Try agai- actually, no. Don't even try.

OT: Gross. I know it's trying to be as debauched as possible, but after a bit I have to question WHY.

 

[Lieju]

forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

Encouraging artists to analyse their subconscious ideals, and reconsider their opinion of the art they want to make, is not.

Artists have their ideals solely in mind when creating their art. It's the reason why Van Gogh's The Scream possesses a specific color palette: it was designed that way.

(Irrelevant to your point, but wasn't Scream painted by Munch?)
But video-games aren't the product of one person (most of the time), and the artists are pressured into making decisions like putting nudity and rape in stuff by their superiors because 'it will sell'.

Even if the devs have completely free reign, it would be still naive to say they aren't thinking what their audience would like to see and make questionable decisions because they think their audience wants it.

I guess Yahtzee is then the most pro-censorship game-journalist, then, and all the complaints about XBone are gamers being pro-censorship and everyone should just say positive things about any product. I'm really tired of people hiding from criticism with 'you're trying to censor me!'.
Especially when it comes to something like the portrayal of women in games.

If I criticise COD for being linear and dull, no-one is yelling at me for trying to censor it, for some reason...

The freedom of experession doesn't mean freedom from opposing viewpoints

Now you're taking what I said out of context. Again, criticism is inherently not bad, but when it stands to forsake an artist's work because it hurts your feelings, then you're crossing over into a whole new territory.

And how is criticism against the portrayal of rape or of women or sexism any different?
If I complain that the choices the artists made in the colour-palette, for example, and say I'm not going to buy the game because it's brown and shitty-looking, how it is different than saying that depiction of some issue in the game is handled badly?

At this point, I'm not sure if you're being petulant or actually missing the point being made that the reality of the situation is nobody's making a fuss.

And your response has NOTHING to do with Lieju, so, I'm not even sure what to say there.

You would think so, but you would be wrong. Refer to the twitter discussion between Söderström and Blackclaw FM, and this video:

This isn't about feminism or objectification: it's about something so much more. This is about the freedoms of artistic expression and sticking to your guns when people find it mortifying.

I can't watch videos with my Internet-connection, so I have no idea what that video says.
But if we cannot criticise art, how will the artist know if they managed to get their message out the way they intended? And should we not criticise the message?

Freedom of artistic expression does not mean freedom from criticism.

 

[wintercoat]

I wonder. If F.E.A.R. 2 were to be released now, would it create the same level of controversy? I mean, it's only been, what, 4 years since 2 was released? Was there controversy when 2 was released? I didn't frequent gaming sites back then, so I might have missed it.

 

[VanTesla]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-now/7559-Hotline-Miami-2-Preview

Watch the preview. You can clearly see a fat character raping a woman who's crawling on the floor.

So let me ask the all important question, does that fact that it's retro graphics make it more palatable? After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

It's not even the first game that has had rape in it and doubt it will be the last... Honestly if it is not glorified and shown as the evil it is, then I have no problem with it. Those that have a problem have the option to not play it or ignore it out right so if any are trying to boycot then get over the political correctness for pete sake... I am of the opinion that those that commit such an act should have their manhood cut off and be raped in prison and same goes for a female rapist however you would go about that...

 

[VanTesla]

I wonder. If F.E.A.R. 2 were to be released now, would it create the same level of controversy? I mean, it's only been, what, 4 years since 2 was released? Was there controversy when 2 was released? I didn't frequent gaming sites back then, so I might have missed it.

Does anyone remember Custer's Revenge? The whole game is you raping a defenseless Native American female... Don't recall major backlash for that piece of trash.

 

[Lieju]

You would think so, but you would be wrong. Refer to the twitter discussion between Söderström and Blackclaw FM.

So wait... a single person (with 56 followers, the horror!) on Twitter had an amicable conversation with the dev about the scene and somehow this qualifies as a controversy? Man, the gaming community must be really bored right now. Can we have another Mass Effect game with a crap ending, please?

But if them feminists aren't trying to take our fun away at every point, how can we be upset about them!?

BTW, you messed up the quotes, that wasn't me saying that.

 

[wintercoat]

I wonder. If F.E.A.R. 2 were to be released now, would it create the same level of controversy? I mean, it's only been, what, 4 years since 2 was released? Was there controversy when 2 was released? I didn't frequent gaming sites back then, so I might have missed it.

Does anyone remember Custer's Revenge? The whole game is you raping a defenseless Native American female... Don't recall major backlash for that piece of trash.

Actually, Custer's Revenge did receive a ton of backlash, including numerous lawsuits against the creators, and the game was eventually pulled from shelves. There was actually a pretty good amount of controversy surrounding it when it was released.

 

[zombiejoe]

It's not even real in the game. You're an actor in a movie.

 

[Depulcator]

Don't like it? Don't play it..... and it wasn't in the game case closed.

 

[NKRevan]

So many people complaining that movies, TV and books can get away with things, but not games.

I'd like to remind everyone that games have agency. Other media doesn't. That's a major difference, especially in the eyes of those who watch like hawks for what the gaming industry does.

And there is a difference. After all, in most posts comparing games to movies (and other media) we praise the fact that in games, you can influence the world. You can influence the story. You can make decisions that the movies and TV take away from you. You are not passive, you ARE the person doing those things.

Not saying I think this particular instance should be banned or shouldn't be. I honestly haven't made up my mind about it yet. Just wanted to point out a comparison to other forms of media is a little weak when most of the time we praise games for the big DIFFERENCE from other media.

 

[dudlerand]

Why would anyone be so broadly opposed to an artist incorporating rape into their material? Voicing concerns I get, but requesting something to be removed without even having proper context just seems borderline fanatical. Besides, it's not as though rape is any worse than many forms of torture, which I seem to recall being in the first game.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Aren't the real victims of murder the surviving relatives of the murdered? Couldn't you upset the mother of a boy who was murdered in cold blood?

I'll actually swing the otherway, I don't think any entertainment medium should ever really try to tackle anything super serious as to try to have an impact on people. Regardless of the material or how it's presented, so long as there is a fictional narrative at play it will always indirectly end up glamorizing it.

At that point though you lose the ability to invoke the personal first person memories though because youre referring to a first person by stander. Not to mention theres a huge difference and variation in murders and assaults. Ive been held at knife point yet holding another person at knifepoint in game doesnt ever flash me back or make me uncomfortable thinking about the shitty situation. Its just too disconnected. The action is to general and impersonal for me. It didnt violate me at all in any serious way. I cant imagine someone who had a family member murdered will ALWAYS be traumatized by the mention of any sort of death or killing. Theres too much of a disconnect. Now if the exact scenario was simulated almost perfectly and played out over and over by different people maybe. Then the disconnect might disappear. Killing in games isnt messy either, its usually made swift and glamorized for the younger audience to the point where its very hard to link it in your mind to a real scenario. I think seeing a real headshot would disgust most people. I think movie bob did a video about it. We dont get traumatized by fake violence because we are used to it. I dont think we are used to fake rape. People who that might utterly traumatize dont have barriers against it. We could change this i suppose. I just dont see a compelling reason to do so. Like you said its usually handled very fucking poorly in entertainment.

I just think rape is more of a psychological damage than any other form of assault. The only way to get close with violence is being third party to a personal murder. And even then youre not involved as the victim or perp so its not the same as actually BEING an active part of a rape. Not to mention the potential scenario could vary wildly with a murder, less so for a rape. I imagine most rapes have a lot of things in common. Ive read personal diaries of a few victims of rape in some best selling auto biographies and they are chillingly similar but this is anecdotal so i dont want to state that as fact. Its easier to recreate the "general" rape than the "general" murder in my opinion. I could be wrong though it just seems theres less room for variation. Its easier to hit home with something too much like the real thing.

I think some VERY rare pieces of media handle the idea of rape well. However some try too hard not to glamorize it and just do the lazy "Look the villain is a rapist so he is evil" shtick which feels a little contrived.

 

[dudlerand]

Why would anyone be so broadly opposed to an artist incorporating rape into their material? Criticism I get, but requesting something to be removed without even having proper context just seems borderline fanatical. Besides, it's not as though rape is any worse than many forms of torture, which I seem to recall being in the first game.

Someone asked this question of the one person on Twitter who actually objected to the inclusion of the scene, and they responded. Not saying I even necessarily agree with them, but in case you wanted an answer:

"Sexual violence occurs far more often in real life than the hyper-violent murders shown in Hotline Miami, and there are far more survivors of this sexual violence playing these games than there are survivors of murder. These depictions, 'dramatizations' or not, have a very real threat of inducing traumatic stress in victims. If you don't agree, that's fine, but I'm asking for very little (a second or two removed at most) so that survivors of sexual violence can play these games without having to worry about having their trauma dug back up. The use of rape in storylines is acceptable so long as it's handled tastefully - but graphically depicting the act and having it performed by the playing character, I believe, is far more likely to cause trauma."

They were then asked whether or not the weird forms of torture in the game should also be removed, since a very small minority of people who might play the game are survivors of torture:

"I don't think it is, no. It would be folly to try and make a game suitable to be played by everyone. I would add that the hyper-violence in Hotline is much more integral to the game, and un-realistic, than rape is."

Again, this "controversy" isn't in an article or actually on any gaming website or anything. It's two random people (one has 56 followers, the other has precisely 2) having a casual conversation about something on Twitter. I think it speaks volumes that The Escapist forums' ears were pricked up high enough to dig out this fairly innocuous exchange and treat it like some kind of massive controversy.

Eh, sounds like he/she's just marginalizing people for the sake of his/her own agenda, especially considering that victims of extreme violence (not just torture) can also suffer from PTSD and develop triggers, and the violence depicted in games like Hotline could probably set some people off. I also shouldn't think it is the artist's responsibility to censor their work to accommodate other people. I think putting up a trigger warning would be more logical (like they do for epilepsy). Oh well. That person is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Either way, I was speaking about anyone who might wish to broadly censor this sort of thing, which is why I never mentioned the word controversy or implied that multiple people verifiably thought that (though I don't doubt that others might share that individual's general sentiment).