So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[Brown_Coat117]

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

So a game where the main protagonist is a white male and normally depicted wearing a fucking pig mask whilst commiting acts of extreme violence is sexist.... Right

HOW DARE YOU BRING LOGIC INTO THIS DISCUSSION. I'M REPORTING YOU RIGHT NOW.

 

[Chicago Ted]

Now I understand that there is context for this specific instance, and obviously I've not played the game either, so maybe Miami Hotline 2 will address it in a positive manner. You'll have to forgive me if I strongly doubt that will be the case.

Here's the thing with Hotline Miami. The violence is extreme, nonstop, and completely in your face. But, when you finish a level, the game doesn't just put you to the next bit. You have to leave the building. In most cases this involves going back all the way to the start of the level, through everything that you've done. This isn't like GTA, or Saints Row, or any other game like that where the bodies will disappear after a short time. When the level ends, the pulsating, rhythmic music that has been guiding you through the level suddenly cuts out, and you are left with all that you have done. You are often literally wading through the bodies of the people you have BRUTALLY murdered, and as the levels go on, the bodies just keep piling up more, and more, and more.

The game is fucked. There's no other way to put it. It's depraved, brutal, and sickening. But that's a good portion of the point to it. You start playing the game, and actually think about what you're doing by the end of it, you're not feeling a sense of accomplishment for what you've done, you're feeling an uncomfortable knot twist in your stomach as you go back to your car and drive off.

Now, that's just my take on it. I think the violence in it is handled quite well. It's the fact that the game makes you walk back through all that you've done after the hectic high of the fight wears off, and realize all that you've done. That you have to go back through room after room of people you ended suddenly and gorily. It actually makes you very heavily question what you're doing, and gives you a sense of uneasiness.

I can only speak for myself though. To me, the intense gameplay is fun, but also a bit revolting, which only makes me enjoy it all the more. It's off putting but in a good way, because there was some intent behind it to make you realize it. It fits the game. And honestly, adding an element of rape into this game might actually work if done correctly. Why? Because it's not condoning it in any way. When you walk back through the level, and see what you did, find that women again lying face down in a pool of blood as she tried to scramble away from you, with another man beside her with his skull bashed open by a pipe, I don't think there'll be a feeling of accomplishment in it. Just one of disgust for what you have done.

Again though, that's only my mind on it. Some people are just going to go through and play it again and again to try and beat their high scores and unlock new weapons to murder people with. But I kinda think that makes a statement in and of themselves. Because, in the end, the game is trying to emphasize in many ways that what is going on in its world, and what you're doing in it is fundamentally wrong and broken. I think that this game might handle the matter well, better than most games and media in fact, simply because it already does so much to underline how fucked what you've done really is.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm ok for people to stir shit over this rape scene if they can go back and stir shit over the incredibly violent aesthetics of the first one. That's the only way to do it without seeming like uneducated uninformed hypocritical fucks.

I don't know what this says about me, but I've played the first one almost religiously. I love how it gives off that violent rage, and then once a level is complete it forces you to look at what you've done. It's a brilliant work of art in that regard....

But the moment I saw pants drop in the vid.... as someone else pointed out it's part of a in game movie and for that I feel it's a well played piece of commentary, but it was enough to make me feel physically ill for a second. It was enough shock value to me that I felt the need/want to kick the hornets nest anyway.

Story wise, it's a brilliant swerve though. I can't see anyone arguing that it's "triggering" considering the nature of the rest of the content is pretty triggering in it's own right.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Now I understand that there is context for this specific instance, and obviously I've not played the game either, so maybe Miami Hotline 2 will address it in a positive manner. You'll have to forgive me if I strongly doubt that will be the case.

Here's the thing with Hotline Miami. The violence is extreme, nonstop, and completely in your face. But, when you finish a level, the game doesn't just put you to the next bit. You have to leave the building. In most cases this involves going back all the way to the start of the level, through everything that you've done. This isn't like GTA, or Saints Row, or any other game like that where the bodies will disappear after a short time. When the level ends, the pulsating, rhythmic music that has been guiding you through the level suddenly cuts out, and you are left with all that you have done. You are often literally wading through the bodies of the people you have BRUTALLY murdered, and as the levels go on, the bodies just keep piling up more, and more, and more.

The game is fucked. There's no other way to put it. It's depraved, brutal, and sickening. But that's a good portion of the point to it. You start playing the game, and actually think about what you're doing by the end of it, you're not feeling a sense of accomplishment for what you've done, you're feeling an uncomfortable knot twist in your stomach as you go back to your car and drive off.

Now, that's just my take on it. I think the violence in it is handled quite well. It's the fact that the game makes you walk back through all that you've done after the hectic high of the fight wears off, and realize all that you've done. That you have to go back through room after room of people you ended suddenly and gorily. It actually makes you very heavily question what you're doing, and gives you a sense of uneasiness.

in fact, that's one of the main questions of the game: Do you enjoy hurting other people?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

People are way too sensitive these days.

I'm not talking about people who complain about the portrayal of rape in video games either. No, I'm talking about the people in this thread who are working themselves up into a lather over their hobby being criticised despite the fact that no one has actually criticised this.

I mean, really? The OP has flat out said that he doesn't really care and only started the thread to wind people up, and somehow it's still working. There are people going, "OMG, we can't even mention rape in video games any more" and crying censorship despite the fact that there hasn't actually been a controversy. No one has complained. This hasn't been criticised on any news sites and the person who brought it up in the first place isn't even bothered by it.

It's just amazing. Gamers are now having kneejerk reactions to things that haven't actually happened yet.

This is true.

In fact, I happen to love the game quite a bit and am seriously heart broken it's going to be the final entry...

Though to be fair, I'm shocked no news site has picked it up, especially the escapist. I mean how the hell does anyone (regardless of your opinion of rape in games) see that clip and not go "Whoa whoa whoa, hold the fuck up, what the hell is THAT noise?!"

I mean, even if we're going with "it's just a movie" a scene like that should NEVER have been released to the public. they just gave away their whole twist!

 

[The_Echo]

Hotline Miami is a deliberately brutal game.

That the sequel would involve rape, no matter in what capacity, doesn't surprise me and shouldn't surprise anyone else.

 

[Teoes]

Folks need to stop getting lathered up about things like this, because it only reinforces the upsetting precedent that video games are excluded from acknowledging and dealing with the sort of touchy, taboo and controversial subjects (including, but not limited to, rape) that every other form of media is allowed to portray.

Plus, you know, as already noted it's not actually rape here. Also gotta love the folks who are damning Hotline Miami and it's sequel without actually knowing the full script with it or having played it. The Daily Mail would be most proud, acolytes. Give the game a shot, you might have a ton of fun and understand the point it's making.

snip

What he said.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

Why should you be concerned? For example, in Mortal Kombat 2011 you see a heart ripped out, a body torn in pieces or in half, hands ripped off, a head crushed etc.

What's so bad about rape and sex? Do you really think that after watching rape and excessive violence videos at the same time or simultaneously a subject will want to rape somebody more than to kill (in the way dumb populists define a possibility of an event X and how it counteracts with the possibility of Y)?

I'm guessing people find physical violence more tollerable than sexual violence.

Plus the games are about killing people, not one of those Japanese sex games I hear about, so customers are expecting and have taken part in the killing, they didnt want to be part of a rape.

although for me, its about context, its not like these situations are saying rape is good, or are being dimissive of it

 

[Alluos]

I'm wondering if a rape scene in a video game could ever be portrayed as "tasteful", or if it would have to be left off-screen at most.

This scene is literally banking on you being disgusted by it before flicking on the lights and going "Lol, psych!". It's a sucker-punch of intentional bad taste.
I wouldn't be so up in arms about the whole thing.

 

[Lieju]

Good, let's see some rape in a game. I'm sick and tired of the idea of all the horrible things I can do to an individual without anyone batting an eye. But the very idea of sticking a penis into them instead of a chainsaw is somehow leagues upon leagues worse is just the most absurd thing society has going on right now.

Either get upset at everything someone does that's horrible to someone else or don't get upset at anything. Being selective in disgust for violence is hypocritical.

Here's my problem with how rape is depicted in media:

It's way too often put in there to get in sex, because heavens, no, we can't have women and men engaging in consensual sex and women wanting sex. Think of the children!

And this is a problem with stuff aimed at women too. Look at 50 shades, and how the main female character must be coerced and raped by the main male lead(because she must stay innocent, and not actively pursue sex), and how this is presented as romantic.

In a game like this I don't see it as such a problem, because the whole thing is shocking violence.

I do think it's silly, though, how gamers are so quick to be offended by any criticism they imagine because they want to rally against feminists or whatever.

The only people I see getting upset over this are people who want to get upset at people criticising rape in games.

 

[Kospys]

Meh, the first game was already horribly sexist and the second game honestly isn't really pushing new boundaries there. Like the first game, most of the media will ignore it because it's indie and thus has a lower profile than its AAA counterparts.

In what possible way was Hotline Miami sexist?

Seriously? Let's see. The most prominent female character in the game is a victim, a helpless damsel, a trophy, and a victim again. The promo art itself shows a scantily clad unconscious woman needing to be protected from other men.

If portraying women as helpless, property of men, victims, and sexual objects isn't sexist than dictionaries have been lying to me.

The way you described the lady in the first game is pretty accurate, but I personally think that this is completely intentional. Since it's pretty safe to say that the game is a critique of the violent revenge driven power fantasy, it only makes sense that the main female character is reduced to a woman in the refridgerator, as someone already pointed out. The fact that the player doesn't even have any interactions with her (honestly, she's just part of the decorum, the player is left caring about her as much as about the house) means that she ultimately serves as a narrative tool. But again I stress that this intentional. Is this manipulative? Oh yes, as all power fantasies ultimately are. Even though the game concerns itself more with violence as a game mechanic and aesthetic choice, I still see condemnation of a narrative structure that bases itself on the victimisation of women.

I think the rape scene in the second game will serve as further commentary on violence against women within media. At least I hope it will, otherwise it would just be a huge missed opportunity to do something transgressive and interesting.

 

[JazzJack2]

ot every game needs to give a balanced attention to each gender to avoid being sexist and your claim that the game shows women as weak is a lie because it actually only shows a SPECIFIC female character as weak. (Not the same thing)

When she's the the absolute most prominent character and featured in the advertising in sexual victim mode, it's pretty explicit that the game is far more likely to see women as weak rather than strong.

The game doesn't see women as anything and the same goes for men, this game makes no commentary on gender issues and should be taken as such. Art and media only comment on specific social issues if they choose to do so and bringing in concepts that are not relevant is futile, saying Hotline miami is bad because it make no attempt to represent genders equally is missing the point of the game.

Nah dude. She's a woman in a refrigerator trope. She exists just to give Jacket/player something to care about, and to be upset about when we find her

Spoiler

killed

Using female 'tropes' is not indicative of sexism even on its own and when it's coupled with equally flat male characters its just down to bad characterization (or purposely bad characterization in the case of Hotline Miami). Again I don't see how people can level the claim of sexism against Hotline Miami when it makes no attempt to portray any characters accurately. Media and art should not be put up to the scrutiny of real life values because that misses their purpose, they do not attempt to be an accurate reflection of all real life socio-political problems and ideals but only SOME (or maybe even non at all). And questioning how well Hotline Miami portrayed genders is as silly as asking how well did Star Wars portray environmental issues, it's simply not relevant.

 

[ShipofFools]

Couldn't you rape in one of the old fall out games? I seem to remember something like that.
Hm, who cares?

 

[InvaderTim]

I wish people would understand that just because something has rape in it, or can be perceived as having rape in it, or can imply rape, or a watered down PG version of rape (looking at you Tomb Raider), doesn't mean the game condones rape, nor does it make the developers or players of the game rapists..

 

[Busard]

It's hotline miami. It's main thing is ULTRA VIOLENCE.

To not expect gruesome things in this game is kind of naive.

Yeah, rape is a bad thing. In real life. This is a bunch of pixels, not real people. If you think it doesn't matter, then you also validate every accusation from people who say video games breed violence.

I can get, although of course not fully understand, why people who have been sexually abused will be uncomfortable. It's an entirely traumatic experience and the mere mention of it can bring back horrible memories. But constantly jumping on people who just want to express an idea because TRIGGER ALERT is kinda pushing it.

In any case, the creator said out loud there's no actual rape scene, it's an allusion but doesn't actually happen. He also added himself that this game is "not for everyone"

 

[monkeynohito]

Here's a thing: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder

Now all that said, the subtext of the first game boils down to a Mark Millaresque, "This is actually you, gamer! Look at how violent you are, bwahahaha!" They detonate a wet fart in the kitchen and try to blame the dog for it and the sequel is just cranking all that crap up to 11. Some of you would disagree with Jim in the video (for some reason), but why do you want rape added to the list of petty accusations being spit at you by these guys?