So Narrative Cutscenes are now bad

[Callate]

The problem with narrative cut scenes is that they're often mis-used in such a way that virtually every event with actual importance to the over-arcing storyline happens in cut-scenes, rather than in moments of player control. Rather than engaging the players and making them part of the ongoing story, some designers prefer to make them stand back and watch, not trusting the clumsy consumers not to wreck their ingenious narrative.

It's like the difference between actually walking through, say, a museum, versus having to run on a treadmill for ten minutes to power a device to play the next segment of a video about art. If the gameplay is all but divorced from the narrative, it almost becomes a question why the two co-exist at all.

 

[dessertmonkeyjk]

I think what they were trying to get across is that sometimes cutscenes are unnecessary if you can just show it in gameplay.

Say having a monster drop from the ceiling and starts wrecking the place. What's makes an impact more? Having the scene play itself out or have player impulse of the immediate threat determine the course of action? I'd pick the latter as you feel the weight of choice furthering the immersion.

Now if it's just some important chatter going on then that might be suitable for a cutscene if you're not expected to act in a manner that the buttons and/or sticks on the controller lets you.

 

[Archangel768]

I don't really get all the hate for cut scenes. Especially ones in Final Fantasy. 50 hours of game play as opposed to 5 hours of cut scenes is not really a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes.

Metal Gear Solid 4 is a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes as the games is about 15 hours long, 7 or 8 of those are easily cut scenes.

Anyway, Final Fantasy X is my favourite game ever, I've never been so drawn into a game before and felt like I was the character I was playing. The combination of taking control of the character making him get to the next objective and then seeing the next epic part of the story played out in a cut scene (pre rendered ones especially) was amazing for me. The cut scenes didn't ruin my immersion at all. Dunno why it breaks everyone else's (at least on this site).

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I don't know, that wasn't what I got out of that episode. What I got out of that episode was that they were saying that cutscenes are a tool that should be properly used, and as games are intended to be an interactive medium the cutscenes should not overpower the gameplay.

 

[evilneko]

Mass Effect: Cutscenes done right. Remember the pacing episode? Cutscenes in ME fit nicely in various spots on that graph. Are they narrative or context? I don't really care.

 

[Vault101]

all the games ive played have never over used cutscenes

yes they can be over used, but they can also be perfectly fine, its fucking stupid to say its eather one or the other

the only one way Yakuza 3...I think this might be a japaneise thing (flamsheild)

 

[badgersprite]

Not narrative cutscenes. Exposition cutscenes. Exposition is boring in all media, games are no exception. Developing characters, fine. Moving the plot along, fine. Padding and exposition? GTFO.

 

[DustyDrB]

I don't really get all the hate for cut scenes. Especially ones in Final Fantasy. 50 hours of game play as opposed to 5 hours of cut scenes is not really a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes.

Metal Gear Solid 4 is a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes as the games is about 15 hours long, 7 or 8 of those are easily cut scenes.

It's not just that they were long, either. But they were pretty bad. Some of them randomly turned into Powerpoint presentations (I remember it was really bad when you meet EVA). I love the game for its gameplay, but it's also a course on how not to do cutscenes.

 

[targren]

I don't really get all the hate for cut scenes. Especially ones in Final Fantasy. 50 hours of game play as opposed to 5 hours of cut scenes is not really a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes.

You must be joking. You don't think spending 10% of game time not DOING anything isn't 'overuse?'

Other examples:

Star Ocean III
Xenosaga -- Both of these games have cutscenes that are literally so long that they give you a save point in the MIDDLE of the cutscene. That's too damn long.

DXHR, as has been mentioned many times... Particularly pissed me off when Adam falls for the oldest trick in the book while I can do nothing but scream "She's playing you, idiot! Just shoot the *****!" at the screen. Definitely a misuse. Also, the mini-cutscene/pullaway takedowns... Obnoxious.

Any game that shows a big epic slaughter while you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs instead of being able to actually take part in the fight. Sure, you might lose, but at least you'd be playing the damn game...

 

[lovest harding]

EDIT: Nevermind. I must remember to think thoroughly before posting. >>

 

[Archangel768]

I don't really get all the hate for cut scenes. Especially ones in Final Fantasy. 50 hours of game play as opposed to 5 hours of cut scenes is not really a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes.

You must be joking. You don't think spending 10% of game time not DOING anything isn't 'overuse?'

No I'm not kidding at all.
5 hours opposed to 50 hours of gameplay. That's 6 minutes per hour. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Haven't played SO III so I can't comment on that.
Only played Xenosaga 1. The biggest problem I found with the game was that the levels sometimes got boring. Sometimes the cut scenes got boring. I have more of a problem with boring cut scenes as opposed to long ones. As long as I'm entertained then I'm happy.
Didn't read the Deus Ex part since I haven't played it yet and don't want anything spoiled.

I

Metal Gear Solid 4 is a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes as the games is about 15 hours long, 7 or 8 of those are easily cut scenes.

It's not just that they were long, either. But they were pretty bad. Some of them randomly turned into Powerpoint presentations (I remember it was really bad when you meet EVA). I love the game for its gameplay, but it's also a course on how not to do cutscenes.

I agree on the power point parts. They got really boring and some of the conversations just seemed to drag on and on. I must say though that when it comes to the real time animation and the action scenes, they were the most impressive real time cut scenes I've seen in a game so far. But yea, definitely need to improve on the power point presentation style. Although I admit I probably would have appreciated all the information much more if I had actually played the other games and could relate to it.

 

[Arina Love]

it's just opinion. my opinion Narrative cutscenes is good and i enjoyed every second of them in MGS4 and FFXIII. More cutscenes than gameplay in them? HA what a load of baloney. i played those games and i spend more time actually playing them then watching, did he even played through them to boldly claim that? Yeah Narrative cutscenes are big part of these games but they are there for a reason and it's not make these game bad yeah it will turn off some people but i rather have Narrative cutscenes than non stop gameplay. Extra is hit or miss for me, some are good and some a really bad like this one.

 

[Arina Love]

I don't really get all the hate for cut scenes. Especially ones in Final Fantasy. 50 hours of game play as opposed to 5 hours of cut scenes is not really a good example of 'Overuse' of cut scenes.

You must be joking. You don't think spending 10% of game time not DOING anything isn't 'overuse?'

Other examples:

Star Ocean III
Xenosaga -- Both of these games have cutscenes that are literally so long that they give you a save point in the MIDDLE of the cutscene. That's too damn long.

DXHR, as has been mentioned many times... Particularly pissed me off when Adam falls for the oldest trick in the book while I can do nothing but scream "She's playing you, idiot! Just shoot the *****!" at the screen. Definitely a misuse. Also, the mini-cutscene/pullaway takedowns... Obnoxious.

Any game that shows a big epic slaughter while you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs instead of being able to actually take part in the fight. Sure, you might lose, but at least you'd be playing the damn game...

and this is bad thing why? game telling you a story you don't sit there doing nothing you watch story and information or just some cool stuff. Remember some people have DIFFERENT tastes than you, why would they be joking? i much rather spent 10-40% of game watching cutscenes than just playing game without them.

 

[Wandering_Demon888]

I don't mind cinematic cut scenes in games, I just hate the unskippable ones. Like one of those games where you die a million times and you load your last save and have to watch the same cut scene over and over and over again because you can't skip it! Holy crap thats annoying!

 

[keserak]

Wow. Nearly everyone here either a) didn't watch the episode before writing or b) completely missed the entire point of the episode.

At no point did they make the argument that gameplay was the only, or even the best, way to express narrative. In fact, they attack this notion.

They instead make the claim that cutscenes are best when they establish context -- a NARRATIVE tool -- rather than the entirety of the narrative, and that their overuse was due to quirks of the industry's makeup. That is, self-indulgent artists who care more about their movie fetish or illustration skills than about making an actual game can obscure, or even distort or destroy a narrative due to personal predilections.

Which means most of the first 20-odd posters are pretty much talking out of their ass. Those of you who didn't watch the show, watch it first because this discussion is completely misleading.

I used to think the minimum-skills reading comprehension tests done in U.S. junior high schools were inane wastes of taxpayer money. This site proves, time and time again, that, indeed, proof of our failed education system is available for free online.



N.B.: The actual ratio of cutscene to gameplay is irrelevant as a general proposition. The value of the cutscene is dependent on the specific game and the cutscene(s) in question. Thus, a 50-hour game with an hour's worth of front-loaded cutscenes and then around 4 hours more of the same is probably shit, while a 50-hour game with 5 hours worth of cutscenes spaced strategically throughout it could be very good. The first [hypothetical] game inevitably uses cutscenes hackishly to force the narrative down the player's throat -- oops, not player, idiot-chump purchaser of the most expensive movie on the market.* The second can use cutscenes to enhance gameplay -- it might not, but it has the possibility. Killing an hour of the player's time is a punishment -- the designer is punishing the watcher (he's not a player) becasue the designer can't deliver narrative any other way.

*And while it's not a given, it's very likely that the dialogue of such a movie ("game") will be absolute shit. Why? The same reason why George Lucas now sucks: a lack of restrictions. A rich game designer with no limits who wants to write movies will write BAD, HORRIBLE movies because he has none of the limitations that force moviemakers to be creative! He has no producers crucifying his script, no actors forced to interpret his dribble, no set designers to tell him his blocking was shat out of the fetid backside of a diseased cat, and so on. True, there are other artists on the project, but they can be just as self-indulgent has he is. The video game structure forces you to make strategic choices as to how you interact with the player. Turn that into a movie and you can do whatever you want. If you can communicate whatever you want withou consequences, you get, um, internet forums. Who would pay $60 for that?

 

[Smooth Operator]

I would say you weren't paying attention till the last sentence, maybe watch it again while you sharpen your pitchfork.

What they were saying is cut-scenes and gameplay shouldn't feel like two separate products, cutscenes should reinforce the story/narrative that is going on in the game and not be the only source.
Otherwise they break immersion, and with every crossover they yank you out of the virtual world and clearly outline there is a movie going on and some game, that is just horseshit design.

 

[w00tage]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/cutscenes

According to Extra Credits' new episode (I realize it's been out for a while but I just watched it) cutscenes aren't meant to deliver narrative. What?

I know ExtraCredits are all about that "games are art" thing, and I totally agree with that, but I seriously don't see what they're getting at with this episode. Now I'm not trying to justify games like MGS4 or anything, games probably shouldn't have cutscenes that last more than 10 minutes, but are cutscenes really that bad?

I don't see what's wrong with trying to make a cinematic game. The appeal of watching a movie but you get to play all the action scenes seems really cool to me. And I like games that tell stories through the gameplay alone just as much as the next guy, but imagining an industry that makes games only like that just seems silly to me.

I don't know, what do you guys think?

EDIT:

Perhaps I should rephrase this (I rushed this post out in case you couldn't tell) I don't see the problem with creating cinematic games. I find cinematic games cool. And around the 4 minute mark they start talking about why cinematic games don't work, and I guess some of them don't, but I don't see why we should stop trying to make them work.

To each their own, and you can have ALL of my cinematic, narrative AND dialogue scenes. I'm playing through NWN2 for the first time and I am sick to death of the constant long-winded interruptions. Mass Effect was bad enough, but 10 solid minutes of watching characters blather and clicking through responses is just stupid.

don't get me started on how Obsidian used them to ambush you into a dialogue then yank you straight into a boss fight with no chance to buff or save either. That's just "WTF" design.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

I think if that's the message you got from the episode, you completely missed their point. They didn't say cutscenes are bad. From 5:30 to the very end of the video they spoke about the strengths and important roles cutscenes have in video games--roles that ONLY cutscenes can fill. I think you should go back and rewatch that bit. It's extremely important to the message they were trying to convey.

They did not say "cutscenes are bad" and leave it at that. Not by a long shot. They simply said game designers need to recognize the role of cutscenes, and use them to strengthen their games in ways that gameplay cannot, rather than using them as a cheap and easy alternative to deliver narrative. Many games (like MGS4, as you said) use cutscenes as a crutch because it's cheaper and easier than designing gameplay scenarios. All they are saying is THAT use of cutscenes is bad. Otherwise, they play an important role in setting the scene, playing up dramatic climaxes, or playing out situations where they really want to make the player feel as though they have little choice.

That last one is ingeniously used through out the Half-Life series. If you've never played Half-Life, basically there are no what you might call "cutscenes" in the game. There are scenes and bits of acting played in front of you, and sometimes they lock you in the general area to make sure you don't miss what's going on, but you never lose control of your player. Even while these scenes and exchanges of dialog are going on, you can still run around and do what you want. You stick around, or not, and look at what you want of your own volition.

However, there are a few instances where control IS taken from you. You're stuck in a trap, or you've been severely injured and can't move, or you're unconscious and having a dream sequence. In those instances you can't move where you want, and that sudden lack of control you've had for so long is really jarring. But jarring in a good way--it really drives home the severity of the situation.

Really, if you watched the full episode I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they were saying ALL cutscenes are bad. They never singled out narrative ones as ALWAYS inherently bad. They only have a problem with cutscenes used as shortcuts for narrative--unnecessary ones that could have been shown through other aspects of the game and made solely for making things cheaper, or to ignore the rules the gameplay previously set up. Because really, why DIDN'T they use a phoenix down on Aeris?