So, now that the honeymoon period is over... (Skyrim thread)

[Jitters Caffeine]

Skyrim: Awful game, incredible world

That's how I feel anyway

I don't know if I'd say "awful". It just had me snoring through the plot and the exploration REALLY needs something of an in-flight movie. The radio in Fallout was great. You not only heard the impact of your actions, but you also got hints on things you haven't found yet. Not to mention the music really adds to the atmosphere of the world.

The game barely works, I mean what does work is good and fun but there's too little that does work to make it a good game but not one other game I've played has excited me more than Skyrim when it comes to the world, yeah the exploration gets pretty dull but mostly because of how repetitive it gets, the world itself, everything in it, from the smallest butterflies to the biggest city...I dunno, the whole world of Skyrim excites me just at how deep and big it is. The rest of the game, not so much...that's been my impression all along though really.

I actually didn't like the exploration. I felt it was just too lifeless. I mean, it's supposed to be a huge sprawling forest, right? Why do I feel so alone and the world so empty when I'm exploring the world?

 

[Thatrocketeer]

Except for things like the Temple of the Union moving to the Lincoln Memorial after you kick out the Slavers from the area. That's a direct impact on the world. Those people, former and escaped slaves, moved to the foot of the Lincoln Memorial. Or if you clear out the Slavers out of Paradise Falls, merchants will start visiting the surrounding areas more. Nothing like this happens in Skyrim. Just one more bland, emotionless line of ambient dialogue that gets shouted at you from static, uninteresting NPCs.

Yeah, but the same could be said about Delphine and Esbern moving to the Sky Haven Temple. The two remaining blades occupying the abandoned temple and choosing to use that temple as a Blade Stronghold once again. If you brought your companions to them they could become members of the Blades. That's an effect on the world, you're increasing the amount of available Blades willing to protect the world. Whether that's canon or not I don't really care, since Fallout 3 breaks most of the canon in the Fallout universe anyways.

IIRC after you get the slaves to the temple, and revisit them, they just spout a line at you, telling you that they're going to rebuild the monument, which they never got around to doing until the ending, which you never see except for a slide. Also the trade merchants appearing were doing rounds for the Underworld, not for the memorial. I thought someone from the Underworld told you that.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Except for things like the Temple of the Union moving to the Lincoln Memorial after you kick out the Slavers from the area. That's a direct impact on the world. Those people, former and escaped slaves, moved to the foot of the Lincoln Memorial. Or if you clear out the Slavers out of Paradise Falls, merchants will start visiting the surrounding areas more. Nothing like this happens in Skyrim. Just one more bland, emotionless line of ambient dialogue that gets shouted at you from static, uninteresting NPCs.

Yeah, but the same could be said about Delphine and Esbern moving to the Sky Haven Temple. The two remaining blades occupying the abandoned temple and choosing to use that temple as a Blade Stronghold once again. If you brought your companions to them they could become members of the Blades. That's an effect on the world, you're increasing the amount of available Blades willing to protect the world. Whether that's canon or not I don't really care, since Fallout 3 breaks most of the canon in the Fallout universe anyways.

IIRC after you get the slaves to the temple, and revisit them, they just spout a line at you, telling you that they're going to rebuild the monument, which they never got around to doing until the ending, which you never see except for a slide. Also the trade merchants appearing were doing rounds for the Underworld, not for the memorial. I thought someone from the Underworld told you that.

So I can escort a bunch of boring characters, that I have zero attachment to, all the way across the map to a temple that doesn't do anything. RIVETING!

There's no satisfaction in it. It's just moving three random NPCs of your choosing to another part of the map. It doesn't DO anything. If you move the Slaves to the Temple, you hear that they've been making nice with the Ghouls in Underworld and that they've been sharing supplies. You hear that what you've done has made a difference.

The way it was described to me by a friend who really loves the Elder Scrolls series, the satisfaction he gets is from the fact he's played all the others, learned the lore, spent hours reading the books, and that's what he likes about the game. Nothing you do changes the world, and that's not what he was looking for. Me? I need more than a reference I find in a random book that references ANOTHER book from a game I didn't enjoy.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I actually didn't like the exploration. I felt it was just too lifeless. I mean, it's supposed to be a huge sprawling forest, right? Why do I feel so alone and the world so empty when I'm exploring the world?

I frequently come across hunters who are hunting dear, crazy old people who want me to wabbajack them, have bandits try to rob me, come across mercs who are going to clear out a cave etc. etc.

I cant go more then 15-20 minutes without running into at least 4 npcs doing something in the world.

I dont see how you can call it lifeless

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I actually didn't like the exploration. I felt it was just too lifeless. I mean, it's supposed to be a huge sprawling forest, right? Why do I feel so alone and the world so empty when I'm exploring the world?

I frequently come across hunters who are hunting dear, crazy old people who want me to wabbajack them, have bandits try to rob me, come across mercs who are going to clear out a cave etc. etc.

I cant go more then 15-20 minutes without running into at least 4 npcs doing something in the world.

I dont see how you can call it lifeless

Lifeless because the world seems to want you to be a spectator rather than a contributor to the world. Nothing you do matters. A couple random encounter in the silent, bland wilderness isn't enough to distract me from the cold, lifeless world I'm supposed to be saving. These encounters were either scripted or just totally missed because you weren't looking in the right spot to see them. Which happened if you nodded off on your trip to the next city like I did.

 

[Thatrocketeer]

So I can escort a bunch of boring characters, that I have zero attachment to, all the way across the map to a temple that doesn't do anything. RIVETING!

You basically described what you do in the second part of the Head of the State in case you sided with the slaves. Hell, the Lincoln Memorial doesn't even provide anything to the plot compared to Sky Haven Temple.

There's no satisfaction in it. It's just moving three random NPCs of your choosing to another part of the map. It doesn't DO anything. If you move the Slaves to the Temple, you hear that they've been making nice with the Ghouls in Underworld and that they've been sharing supplies. You hear that what you've done has made a difference.

No, since once you've moved Esbern and Delphine there they actually contribute to the plot by showing you Alduin's wall. They offer more services (Blade armor giving to your companions, Word wall hunting, Esbern's buffs) and quests (Continuing the MQ from them, Kill Paarthurnax, Recruit more Blades) once you've gotten there compared to the slaves in the Lincoln memorial.

The ghouls don't even recognize the slaves when you talk to them in the underworld. You just hear those things from Three Dog. Which like I said earlier, the only thing that makes you think you've done something in that world.

The way it was described to me by a friend who really loves the Elder Scrolls series, the satisfaction he gets is from the fact he's played all the others, learned the lore, spent hours reading the books, and that's what he likes about the game. Nothing you do changes the world, and that's not what he was looking for. Me? I need more than a reference I find in a random book that references ANOTHER book from a game I didn't enjoy.

You don't get to change the world in TES because the world doesn't need changing anyways. The world is fine, there's a threat sure, but the threat isn't that visible since you usually stop the threat before it even happens.

That's why nobody really reacted at the end of MQ in Skyrim, nobody really knew it's the end of the world, because you stopped the end of the world before any signs that the world is ending could be visible.

Unlike in Fallout where the world is visibly in shambles, and there's the need to change or at least improve the world, and that's exactly what you do, you change it for better or worse.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

-snip-

I'm just comparing the Head of State quest line as an example of your actions having visible, lasting consequences in game. You never SEE your actions making any kind of mark on the world, or even on the individual characters. Sure, if you rescue someone from somewhere, they might go to a town somewhere. But usually they just disappear from the game with a "I'm going to join the Civil War" as a way to explain it away. There's no satisfaction in moving people to the Sky Haven Temple because it's meaningless. There's no impact or consequences. You can do it and nothing changes anything else in the world besides having to walk farther to talk to your chosen three NPCs you took there.

And how does the world in Skyrim not need changing? The world is ending. They're in the midst of a Civil War. And their government is secretly being controlled by a shadow shadow organization. Any one of those things could be the plot to a game where you save the world, and yet everyone seems not only aware of these things, but totally apathetic to the problem and you trying to fix them.

I find it impossible to care about a world that takes a "look but don't touch" attitude towards me. If the world doesn't care about what I'm doing, then I don't care about it.

 

[triggrhappy94]

I burned myself out on it. I'll eventually get around to finishing it, but until then I have other games to play.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I burned myself out on it. I'll eventually get around to finishing it, but until then I have other games to play.

I was generally disappointed in my time with the game.

 

[Pearwood]

I kind of overplayed it so I've been going back to New Vegas lately, I still love the game though and I go back to it when the bugs in New Vegas (most recently my PS3 has decided to restart itself with no warning during a load screen, that was a good one) get too annoying.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I kind of overplayed it so I've been going back to New Vegas lately, I still love the game though and I go back to it when the bugs in New Vegas (most recently my PS3 has decided to restart itself with no warning during a load screen, that was a good one) get too annoying.

I'm not familiar with the issues the PS3 version has. I've encountered a few broken quests that I can't fix because of looped dialogue. Unfortunately, they've officially dropped all support for the game, so these issues won't get fixed on consoles.

 

[Pearwood]

I'm not familiar with the issues the PS3 version has. I've encountered a few broken quests that I can't fix because of looped dialogue. Unfortunately, they've officially dropped all support for the game, so these issues won't get fixed on consoles.

I don't think the PS3 has any more issues than the other platforms, it just crashes too often. I deleted my autosaves and old saves I never use anymore, did the rest 3 days trick to make everything reset and it seems to have worked but that game just wants to stop running after an hour or two. Feels like it's telling me it's time to have a break.

 

[TheCommanders]

I was faintly disappointed, proving more than anything else that I should probably pay less attention to hype, but it's not a bad game. I just think it could have been better. A lot better.

 

[lacktheknack]

I can't even DRESS how I want in Skyrim. I'm always looking for the next best armor or weapon. In Fallout, if I want to be a cowboy, I pick up a revolver, put on a duster and I look like a goddamn cowboy.

And why is Skyrim any different? Want to look like a city guard, grab one of their armors. Want to run around in the Emperor's own robes? Just do it (once you find them). Sure, you will be penalized somewhat for doing it, but you are equally penalized by New Vegas if you don't use armor. Likewise with weapons, nothing is stopping you from going through the game with your first iron dagger, just like you could theoretically go through New Vegas with only your Varmint Rifle and lots of guts. Arguably, the latter is harder then iron daggering your way through Skyrim since the NV armor system means any weapon with a caliber below .44 is useless once you face super mutants, power armored enemies or high level NCR/Legion troops. It is also harder to use no armor/low DR armor because of said armor system.

I don't mean to sound rude or arrogant, but this seems to be a problem that's mostly rooted in your different approach to the two games and not in Skyrim itself. I like New Vegas a lot and to me it shares a spot with Skyrim as "best open world RPG of the 21st century (so far)". Because really, I thought Skyrim was great and I still think so. They managed to make a game that was both easily accesible and had quite some depth, thus combining the best of Oblivion (ease of access) and Morrowind (complexity in mechanics and richness of lore).

You forget armor in New Vegas gives skill bonuses. Bonuses that USUALLY give benefits to a certain play style. Want higher Strength so you can use that Minigun and don't necessarily need Agility? Power Armor is the way to go. Want higher Agility and Small Guns so your Revolvers and Repeaters pack a little more punch? Grab a duster and be a Wasteland Cowboy. In Skyrim, I had zero attachment to any Armor, Weapon type, or aesthetic because of how unimmersive the game was. Sure you COULD just grab any armor you wanted with the highest DR, but if it was hard to find, you'd be fucked if it broke. So why not go with an armor that goes with the character you have that gives bonuses to the Skills you use the most AND looks good? I got rid of every piece of armor and every weapon I had in Skyrim if something better came along. But in New Vegas, I wanted to be a cowboy. So I stuck with the best Revolver I could find or which ever handled the best and completely passed up a high tech Plasma Rifle because that wasn't my character. Even if it DID do more damage.

And since you touched on the DR system and needing high caliber guns, did you forget about there being DIFFERENT types of ammo? You could even make your own. Armor Piercing for enemies with high DR, Hollow Point for enemies that don't, and regular ammo when I'm not feeling particularly fancy.

And I don't mean to sound rude, but making assumptions about people MAKES you sound arrogant.

I read your post twice, but I fail to see how you're not shooting yourself in the foot with an automatic rifle.

If you had zero attachment to any weapon or armor in Skyrim, then either your complaint that you can't dress up how you like is invalid, or your EVERYTHING ELSE is invalid.

And then you say that guns in Fallout NV had skill bonuses on each item, and that you PASSED UP on better weapons because of role-play, thus, Fallout had more freedom to role-play.

That makes as much sense as a salmon eating a cloud.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I read your post twice, but I fail to see how you're not shooting yourself in the foot with an automatic rifle.

If you had zero attachment to any weapon or armor in Skyrim, then either your complaint that you can't dress up how you like is invalid, or your EVERYTHING ELSE is invalid.

And then you say that guns in Fallout NV had skill bonuses on each item, and that you PASSED UP on better weapons because of role-play, thus, Fallout had more freedom to role-play.

That makes as much sense as a salmon eating a cloud.

It's actually the clothing in the Fallout games that have the skill and attribute bonuses, not the weapons themselves. But I'm actually fairly confused by your comment. Are you talking to me or the other person? Because I honestly don't see your reasoning or your ridiculously inappropriate mataphore.

I can dress up how I like in Fallout because all the clothing and armor behaves different in the Damage Reduction it has, the skill and attribute bonuses they have, and the way they look. You can easily role-play a character you want because there's more to clothing than just "it's just better". Sure there are unique armors you get at the end of quests, but then that set becomes the "it's just better" and won't want or need to change to anything else. I'll pass up on a Plasma Rifle if I'm playing a cowboy because it doesn't fit my character, even if it does more damage. But if I find an Orcish Greatsword, I'll toss out my Steel Greatsword because it's inferior. There's no attachment to the weapon because there's no attachment to the character or to a theme. Beyond choosing a preferred playstyle, the way you interact with your character is shallow at best, nonexistent at worst.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I'm just comparing the Head of State quest line as an example of your actions having visible, lasting consequences in game. You never SEE your actions making any kind of mark on the world, or even on the individual characters. Sure, if you rescue someone from somewhere, they might go to a town somewhere. But usually they just disappear from the game with a "I'm going to join the Civil War" as a way to explain it away. There's no satisfaction in moving people to the Sky Haven Temple because it's meaningless. There's no impact or consequences. You can do it and nothing changes anything else in the world besides having to walk farther to talk to your chosen three NPCs you took there.

And how does the world in Skyrim not need changing? The world is ending. They're in the midst of a Civil War. And their government is secretly being controlled by a shadow shadow organization. Any one of those things could be the plot to a game where you save the world, and yet everyone seems not only aware of these things, but totally apathetic to the problem and you trying to fix them.

I find it impossible to care about a world that takes a "look but don't touch" attitude towards me. If the world doesn't care about what I'm doing, then I don't care about it.

If by lasting visible consequences you mean

"Generic NPCs moving from one place to another and Three Dog treating every breath you took as the second coming of god"

Skyrim has plenty of that, minus the annoying useless radio DJ.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

I'm just comparing the Head of State quest line as an example of your actions having visible, lasting consequences in game. You never SEE your actions making any kind of mark on the world, or even on the individual characters. Sure, if you rescue someone from somewhere, they might go to a town somewhere. But usually they just disappear from the game with a "I'm going to join the Civil War" as a way to explain it away. There's no satisfaction in moving people to the Sky Haven Temple because it's meaningless. There's no impact or consequences. You can do it and nothing changes anything else in the world besides having to walk farther to talk to your chosen three NPCs you took there.

And how does the world in Skyrim not need changing? The world is ending. They're in the midst of a Civil War. And their government is secretly being controlled by a shadow shadow organization. Any one of those things could be the plot to a game where you save the world, and yet everyone seems not only aware of these things, but totally apathetic to the problem and you trying to fix them.

I find it impossible to care about a world that takes a "look but don't touch" attitude towards me. If the world doesn't care about what I'm doing, then I don't care about it.

If by lasting visible consequences you mean

"Generic NPCs moving from one place to another and Three Dog treating every breath you took as the second coming of god"

Skyrim has plenty of that, minus the annoying useless radio DJ.

At least it's something. Skyrim has nothing that provides any sense of accomplishment or progress. Skyrim feels like I'm playing a first person Runescape. All grind with zero satisfaction.

And Three Dog was part of the main quest, so I don't know what you're talking about. And his commentary was more than just him talking about how awesome you are. Sure, if you've got crazy high karma, he straight up calls you the Wasteland Jesus. Ever have REALLY low karma? He basically tells people to shoot on sight. It may not be much, but it's something that makes you feel like you've done something, and not just walking through a sterile environment that would rather you leave it alone.

 

[SajuukKhar]

At least it's something. Skyrim has nothing that provides any sense of accomplishment or progress. Skyrim feels like I'm playing a first person Runescape. All grind with zero satisfaction.

And Three Dog was part of the main quest, so I don't know what you're talking about. And his commentary was more than just him talking about how awesome you are. Sure, if you've got crazy high karma, he straight up calls you the Wasteland Jesus. Ever have REALLY low karma? He basically tells people to shoot on sight. It may not be much, but it's something that makes you feel like you've done something, and not just walking through a sterile environment that would rather you leave it alone.

Except you know

-Guards and NPCs talking about how far you are in the main quest
-Guards talking about the results of at least 20 different side quests
-NPCs thanking you for helping them out every time you pass them on the street
-Having entire town's guards and thier Jarls replaced depending on who you ie with during the Civil War AND various NPCs in town commenting on how much they like or dislike the new occupancy.
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Beyond that one could skip the three Dog Portion entirely, as one could do with the first half of the MQ, if you just found your dad first.

I did it on my first playthrough, was just wandering around doing side-quests in Fallout 3 then DAMN found my dad, it wasn't till I went back and looked at how many quests I missed did I realized how TERRIBLY programmed FO3 was.
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As for three Dog himself I correct my previous statement. He either
-Makes everything you do out to be the 2nd coming of Jesus
-Overly vilifies EVERY action as if you were Satan
-Holds a unrealistically neutral stance on everything you do
NOTHING he does or says is within a realistic level, it is ALWAYS taken to some ungodly extreme.

Do you know how many of those quests that he makes comments on would actually be commented on? almost none.
Do you know how many people wold care outside the immediate area about 90% of the things you did? almost none.

That is the problem with Fallout, everyone overacts to everything, in Skyrim it is far more subtle and realistic.

The things people across Skyrim talk about are the things that WOULD be talked about everywhere, such as the murder of The Emperor, or things done for very high stakes guilds.

it isn't the "OMG THAT GUY DID ONE TRIVIAL THING LETS ALL TALK ABOUT IT LIKE ITS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER" like in Fallout.

And really if you remove Three Dog from the equation, which I did every playthrough, very very joyfully, very few people actually talk about anything you do. The only thing that really cares is three Dog, because he is a stalker and an annoying one.

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Except you know

-Guards and NPCs talking about how far you are in the main quest
-Guards talking about the results of at least 20 different side quests
-NPCs thanking you for helping them out every time you pass them on the street
-Having entire town's guards and thier Jarls replaced depending on who you ie with during the Civil War AND various NPCs in town commenting on how much they like or dislike the new occupancy.
.
.
Beyond that one could skip the three Dog Portion entirely, as one could do with the first half of the MQ, if you just found your dad first.

I did it on my first playthrough, was just wandering around doing side-quests in Fallout 3 then DAMN found my dad, it wasn't till I went back and looked at how many quests I missed did I realized how TERRIBLY programmed FO3 was.
.
.
As for three Dog himself I correct my previous statement. He either
-Makes everything you do out to be the 2nd coming of Jesus
-Overly vilifies EVERY action as if you were Satan
-Holds a unrealistically neutral stance on everything you do
NOTHING he does or says is within a realistic level, it is ALWAYS taken to some ungodly extreme.

Do you know how many of those quests that he makes comments on would actually be commented on? almost none.
Do you know how many people wold care outside the immediate area about 90% of the things you did? almost none.

That is the problem with Fallout, everyone overacts to everything, in Skyrim it is far more subtle and realistic.

The things people across Skyrim talk about are the things that WOULD be talked about everywhere, such as the murder of The Emperor, or things done for very high stakes guilds.

it isn't the "OMG THAT GUY DID ONE TRIVIAL THING LETS ALL TALK ABOUT IT LIKE ITS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER" like in Fallout.

And really if you remove Three Dog from the equation, which I did every playthrough, very very joyfully, very few people actually talk about anything you do. The only thing that really cares is three Dog, because he is a stalker and an annoying one.

Baseless hyperbole just makes you sound like you're getting incredibly angry over nothing.

Yes, the population talks about a few of the quests you've done, but it's never more than just a single line of dialogue that you hear while you walk through town. Sure, there's an instance where a new Jarl takes over, but it's a scripted part of the main quest. The only interaction between your personal choices and the world are shallow at best and nonexistent every other time. Nothing changes besides you "unlocking" a new random line of ambient sound you hear. There's just no motivation or personal investment to save this world that takes little more than a passing scoff to you. They can stand totally in awe that you've managed to slay a dragon, then immediately switch to berating you for being a weakling with no transition. The people just feel like they're there because the programmers were told they HAD to have other people in the game. No one seems to take notice of you unless you're on a murder spree in town. In Fallout 3, when you reach a part of the story, you start finding new Enclave Outposts in place you previously explored and thought were safe. They'll air drop in troops to kill you. Have really high Karma? Here come Talon Company mercs to take the bounty on your head. Have really low karma? Now you have the Regulators on your tail because you're a menace. The world is REACTING to you being there. In New Vegas, Caesar will send Legion assassins to kill you if you piss them off. Been giving the NCR a bunch of trouble? Here come the Rangers to deal with you. Sure, Skyrim has camps for each side of the army, but they're already static points on your map. You can visit them no matter where you are in the story or who's side you're on.

And you can't complain about the game because you personally skipped the main quest. Sure you could run straight to Vault 112 as soon as you fall out of the prologue, but that isn't a fault on the game. It's an OPTION you have. You can skip anything you want, but why would you? You miss out on the diverse characters the world has. Skyrim doesn't have any diverse characters. You can gauge the entire population of a major stronghold just by talking to a bum on the street. Everyone has the exact same demeanor towards you and the things you've done. The local drunk not like Argonians and Kajhitt? Well you can bet on everyone else having the exact same views. In Fallout 3, one person may hate Ghouls, the person standing next to him might like them, the one next to him may not care at all, and the one behind the counter IS a Ghoul who will give you a discount at the store as long as you treat him with a little kindness.

Of course Three Dog blows everything out of proportion, he's an entertainer with a personal mission to drown out the Enclave propaganda. And why wouldn't he vilify someone who's took a bunch of hits out on some of the more prominent people in the Wasteland with seemingly zero motivation than pure greed? Or if you're a slaver who's remorselessly capturing people? Or burned down the only trees in the entire Capital Wasteland and the population that cared for it? It's just another aspect of the world reacting to you being there. You feel like you've ACCOMPLISHED something when you hear that the quest you took the more difficult way to complete because it was the "right thing to do" even though killing someone would have been easier. The extent of the choices you have with most Skyrim quests are "do it" or "don't do it". Sure there are exceptions, but there always are.

 

[black_knight1337]

I don't know if I'd say "awful". It just had me snoring through the plot and the exploration REALLY needs something of an in-flight movie. The radio in Fallout was great. You not only heard the impact of your actions, but you also got hints on things you haven't found yet. Not to mention the music really adds to the atmosphere of the world.

Quite honestly I found the radio in both Fallout 3 and New Vegas to be absolute rubbish. Fallout 3 consisted of repeating that song "I don't want to set the world on fire" while New Vegas consisted of repeating that song "I've got spurs that jingle jangle". It was the most annoying thing I have experienced in my time playing video games and believe me I have experienced some pretty annoying stuff. If it actually varied the songs that were played then it would be fine but it was the same 'main' song on almost all the time then the mixed it up with what felt like two extra slightly less annoying songs. I have no idea how people in that time period put up with god awful songs like them. They really are like how we now have 'Friday'.