So what are the problems with male characters in games?
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This is probably going to make me sound quite shallow but I'm tired of male characters having such generic appearances. So many of them are Caucasian 30-somethings with brown hair. Quite a few memorable characters pop up in spite of that due to their personalities, but in visual terms it can get quite boring after awhile. Wei Shen and Connor Kenway are the more visually memorable characters from games that I've played in the last little while. Although Wei Shen also had the advantage of being from Sleeping Dogs which was a game that I absolutely loved. Essentially, my point is that it would be great to see some more variety in main characters, both in appearance and in personality.
*snorts* i'll bite, i love these character disection issues... though i think my 'isms' are more related to 'bad MC' then an actual gender issue... but MCs are primarily 'male' and even that i think is just because 'male' is default in all programming as a place holder... somehow MaleMCs are effectively more boring then Female ones even if they're basically the same idiot only one has tits...
Main Characters, but their definition, are boring in my opinion, they are basically cameras on wheels with as little opinion themselves and even less development beyond 'plot said so' not even 'PLOT DEMANDS IT!!' it just 'said so' with a wave of 'i don't care'...
my best example would be using Shepard, as Male/Female they have basically the same dialogue, actions and functions... yet while playing i'm giggling along with snarky F!Shepard but trudging through 'ugh WHY ARE YOU SO BORING!!' with M!Shepard... when they are LITERALLY the same thing... maybe its cause i'm female i can empathize, impose on FemShep easier *shrugs* but then again, guys (or the ones i know) seem to rather play a 'chick' then a dude anyway, so maybe its just that generic maleMC blandness that covers everything...
who's a great MaleMC that never let me down and i loved? DANTE!!
as in the original... the new one annoyed me cause he wasn't quite Dante... primary reason for liking him? his smug snarky-ness... ya know, that same thing FemShep seemed to have over maleShep? hrm... there may be a correlation there...
suppose what would be nice would be to have a guy character that's cocky and knows it, but not the douchey-bro-type ones they try to produce when they go that route... its a very fine line achieving that proper level of snark with a straight face and not be a total ass...
also... totally agree with Jojo... where's our pantsless fanservice~ *snickers*
oh yea, another feature that irks me, harem guys... no not the harems themselves... well sorta, that stuff just bores me with how dumb it is... but if i'm going to nitpick about genders on it, its that the harem-guy is always SO FREAKIN' BLAND!! there is effectively NO REASON women should be throwing themselves at him... unlike Dante, who for some reason has the 'Bond-effect' of finding that one woman in each incarnation that's up to his level in Snark and can mostly resist him resulting in delightful UST laden throughout every encounter... er... what was i saying? oh yea, boring dude with harem, why? when Dante doesn't even have a harem!! they're like sticking a piece of white bread on a stick and waving it around...
suppose that mostly covers my 'man' issues with MCs as they other stuff is basically seen in all incarnation of 'main character' be they male or female... making an interesting MC is rare, they're typically just a watered down checklist of Mary-sue-dom copied from the 'Hero's Journey' flowchart... then plot happens because of them and they become integral to have... -sigh- least side characters are typically interesting... even if they're just as archtyped...
Main Characters, but their definition, are boring in my opinion, they are basically cameras on wheels with as little opinion themselves and even less development beyond 'plot said so' not even 'PLOT DEMANDS IT!!' it just 'said so' with a wave of 'i don't care'...
my best example would be using Shepard, as Male/Female they have basically the same dialogue, actions and functions... yet while playing i'm giggling along with snarky F!Shepard but trudging through 'ugh WHY ARE YOU SO BORING!!' with M!Shepard... when they are LITERALLY the same thing... maybe its cause i'm female i can empathize, impose on FemShep easier *shrugs* but then again, guys (or the ones i know) seem to rather play a 'chick' then a dude anyway, so maybe its just that generic maleMC blandness that covers everything...
who's a great MaleMC that never let me down and i loved? DANTE!!
as in the original... the new one annoyed me cause he wasn't quite Dante... primary reason for liking him? his smug snarky-ness... ya know, that same thing FemShep seemed to have over maleShep? hrm... there may be a correlation there... suppose what would be nice would be to have a guy character that's cocky and knows it, but not the douchey-bro-type ones they try to produce when they go that route... its a very fine line achieving that proper level of snark with a straight face and not be a total ass...
also... totally agree with Jojo... where's our pantsless fanservice~ *snickers*
oh yea, another feature that irks me, harem guys... no not the harems themselves... well sorta, that stuff just bores me with how dumb it is... but if i'm going to nitpick about genders on it, its that the harem-guy is always SO FREAKIN' BLAND!! there is effectively NO REASON women should be throwing themselves at him... unlike Dante, who for some reason has the 'Bond-effect' of finding that one woman in each incarnation that's up to his level in Snark and can mostly resist him resulting in delightful UST laden throughout every encounter... er... what was i saying? oh yea, boring dude with harem, why? when Dante doesn't even have a harem!! they're like sticking a piece of white bread on a stick and waving it around...
suppose that mostly covers my 'man' issues with MCs as they other stuff is basically seen in all incarnation of 'main character' be they male or female... making an interesting MC is rare, they're typically just a watered down checklist of Mary-sue-dom copied from the 'Hero's Journey' flowchart... then plot happens because of them and they become integral to have... -sigh- least side characters are typically interesting... even if they're just as archtyped...
white-30-something-dipped-in-brown... i don't think disliking that is 'shallow', i don't think there's a person out there not bored with that stereotype... the bad thing is when they step out of that they usually just switch to 'white' as in white-with-white-hair so... eh... MCs, the most uncreative aspect of any story :/Aesir23 said:
You've got some good points here, and I agree, not every problem, stereotype or cliche effecting characters needs to be attached to an ism. There are a lot of different points between, "this is not a problem or issue at all" and "This is directly offensive and an immediate social issue negatively impacting our hobby". Even if all we talk about are annoying overused cliches, it's still fun to dissect the commonalities that so many male protagonists, or even supporting characters show.Ikasury said:*snorts* i'll bite, i love these character disection issues... though i think my 'isms' are more related to 'bad MC' then an actual gender issue... but MCs are primarily 'male' and even that i think is just because 'male' is default in all programming as a place holder... somehow MaleMCs are effectively more boring then Female ones even if they're basically the same idiot only one has tits...
Main Characters, but their definition, are boring in my opinion, they are basically cameras on wheels with as little opinion themselves and even less development beyond 'plot said so' not even 'PLOT DEMANDS IT!!' it just 'said so' with a wave of 'i don't care'...
my best example would be using Shepard, as Male/Female they have basically the same dialogue, actions and functions... yet while playing i'm giggling along with snarky F!Shepard but trudging through 'ugh WHY ARE YOU SO BORING!!' with M!Shepard... when they are LITERALLY the same thing... maybe its cause i'm female i can empathize, impose on FemShep easier *shrugs* but then again, guys (or the ones i know) seem to rather play a 'chick' then a dude anyway, so maybe its just that generic maleMC blandness that covers everything...
who's a great MaleMC that never let me down and i loved? DANTE!!
suppose what would be nice would be to have a guy character that's cocky and knows it, but not the douchey-bro-type ones they try to produce when they go that route... its a very fine line achieving that proper level of snark with a straight face and not be a total ass...
also... totally agree with Jojo... where's our pantsless fanservice~ *snickers*
oh yea, another feature that irks me, harem guys... no not the harems themselves... well sorta, that stuff just bores me with how dumb it is... but if i'm going to nitpick about genders on it, its that the harem-guy is always SO FREAKIN' BLAND!! there is effectively NO REASON women should be throwing themselves at him... unlike Dante, who for some reason has the 'Bond-effect' of finding that one woman in each incarnation that's up to his level in Snark and can mostly resist him resulting in delightful UST laden throughout every encounter... er... what was i saying? oh yea, boring dude with harem, why? when Dante doesn't even have a harem!! they're like sticking a piece of white bread on a stick and waving it around...
suppose that mostly covers my 'man' issues with MCs as they other stuff is basically seen in all incarnation of 'main character' be they male or female... making an interesting MC is rare, they're typically just a watered down checklist of Mary-sue-dom copied from the 'Hero's Journey' flowchart... then plot happens because of them and they become integral to have... -sigh- least side characters are typically interesting... even if they're just as archtyped...
As for the harem protagonist, I've always considered them to be the equivalent to the silent protagonist in video games. They exist to be as bland as possible to allow the viewer to vicariously insert themselves into the MC's shoes. I think that's also why the harem protagonist never actually makes any decisions in their love life until the very end of the series, so that the viewer can pick which girl they like best and root for her. Although, I'm unsure why so many harem stories ruin any sort of romantic suspense by making the protagonist have an obvious choice from the very beginning, and almost never waver from that decision throughout the whole series. Seems to kill a lot of the point of having a bunch of people chasing after one partner when you know who the MC is going to end up with by the end of the first episode, none of the other romantic interests even have a chance.
When games try and step out of the male-stereotype comfort zone it can sometimes go badly wrong. Take the player character in Ghostbusters: The Video Game - nameless, young, baby-faced, inexperienced and largely mute aside from some high-pitched yelps and bordering-on-girly screams. Young, baby-faced and inexperienced I have no problem with but why not give the poor sod a name? Even after he saves the day and makes the rest of the Ghostbusters look like the amateurs, they just boot him out the door to start up somewhere else - nice! Great message, there.
Thinking back at games I've played, the only other standout male character, one who doesn't fit the (physical) "standard", was Lester Chaykin from Another World.
Thinking back at games I've played, the only other standout male character, one who doesn't fit the (physical) "standard", was Lester Chaykin from Another World.
Everybody I know who's read it thinks the opposite about the ability to skip pages, often thing make no sense at all if you missed something earlier in the books.Fox12 said:
And making it up as they go along is the way a lot of authers do, and have spoken pulically as in effect their characters writing it not them. They tend to end up with tales that dont feel as forced as many others do.
THis approach has its faults and doesnt always gel well with an intended ending but does at least lead a pleasing air of suspense to procedings, in many books theres more suspense in finding out how the hero wins than in actually whether they will or not.
While far from perfect and full of faults it is far from poorly written and light years ahead of most of even the best written games.
ahh... yes, the 'Set-up' couple, typically of the flavor of 'MC' and 'Female Lead' as generally MC is male in these instances, reverse is possible though rare... shockingly i think FeMC and FemLead as the setup is more common then FeMC and MaleLead... though the only time i've seen MC/M!Lead is in yoai... but no body counts that except yaoists~EternallyBored said:
i've spent a long drawn out diatribe to a couple of my friends about the basis of the MC/F!Lead 'set-up couple' because they didn't believe me... we put in arbitrary game so i could prove my point, it happened to be DA:O, which i had to laugh at because i use this 'formula' in supporting Ali/Morri ALL THE TIME!! XD since MCs by their definition are cameras on wheels, they can be effectively removed from the story with no additive or detriment, they are only there for us to lead them through the plot... so while 'yes' you could argue they are the primary of the 'set-up couple' either way, as Morrigan and Alistair are your set-up/base party, these are the two you 'technically' can't get rid of as they're integral to 'plot'... the funny comes in when you simply remove the Warden from the game entirely, it would still work... hell they have a DLC where THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS!! so yea... shows how 'important' the Warden is... back to the point, this is one of those odd incidents where the 'set-up couple' is actually the primary base/party = Ali/Morri as even in the alternate take, its assumed they got together (at least for the end) and survived all that crazy together...
the 'set-up couple' is designed from day one, and they're generally easy to spot... in series, they're the first two you see in the first episode... if there is no 'set-up couple' in the first ep, don't expect to EVER see any real romance (a la Naruto) but if the first ep is nothing but these two characters forced together by PLOT, oh yes, its going to happen (a la EVERY ANIME/MOVIE/GAME/MEDIA/ETC. IN EXISTENCE) so yea, other harem chicks have no chance compared to they generally 'white-mage'/childhood friend/mysterious stranger/etc. etc. whoever was there first generally ends with dibs...
the only part about them that REALLY gets on my nerves is how passe/bland/unrealistically-interesting they are... X female likes Harem-Male for the sheer sake he is 'Harem-Male'... really?! at least give me some effort... Bioware TRIES at least in building 'something' of a dynamic relationship with interaction... i mean not everyone likes the Warden or Shepard immediately, hell most of the 'love-interests' are trying to kill and/or use you at some point XD DYNAMIC!
but again, just falls under the boring/uninteresting/white bread on a stick that is most MCs...
A lot of writers make it up as they go, and it's a rather bad habit. It's tolerable for pop writers, like Martin, but it holds a series back from greatness. A great novels needs to be written in such a way that nothing can be taken away from the story. Most of what Martin writes is filler. It's like the difference between a pop song and Beethovens 9th. You can enjoy the pop song, but it's not very meaningful. In other words Martin is the McDonalds of Fantasy. His books taste good, but there's nothing there of substance.Petromir said:
I'm not exactly sure how you would classify it as 'shallow'-- it is incredibly intricate, and some of the characters have exceedingly complex, conflicted motivations.Fox12 said:
I'd wonder also how you would classify "filler". There are large sections written entirely for fun that can easily be missed out (such as ser Robin Ryger's attempt to apprehend Brienne), but many great television series do the same. Not everything must contribute to a single, central plot. There are sections in most classics that do not inform the central plot directly.
If you think filler is a waste of space, and everything must inform a single, central plot, then you must regard The X Files and Breaking Bad as "pop music", too.
IMHO I liked FemShep more than ManShep mostly because I think Jennifer Hale is a way better Voice Actress than Mark Meer. Other than that, IDK.Ikasury said:
And I think I can tell you exactly where that comes from.bartholen said:
This is America's cultural hero. G.I. Joe (no, not that one [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Joe]), the idealized personification of the American front-line soldier. 30-something, short brown hair, handsome, white, American. The image practically screams "Mom and apple pie". For a nation absolutely enamored with its military, and nostalgic for the last time we were unquestionably the "good guys", wanting to emulate this hero is practically a part of our (white-bread) national psyche.
... well, yeah. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. I enjoyed both. That said, they are both the very definition of pop (popular) fiction. They're entertaining, but there's not a great deal of depth there. Martin is like Stephen King, in that they are both fun to read, but I wouldn't consider either art, and certainly not high art.Silvanus said:
I don't feel like Martin is really saying anything through his work, and when he does it's not anything profound or meaningful. In another post I compared Game of Thrones to Berserk, a story that is very similar. The difference is that Berserk draws heavily from classical literature and art, it has a clear story line, all the character arcs come together perfectly to drive the plot, and the themes are deep, meaningful, and most importantly subtle. I feel like Martin and Miura were both going for similar stories, but Miura knocked it out of the park. Like I said, Martin can be a fun read, but he isn't all that sophisticated.
Understand I'm not attacking people who like Game of Thrones. That said, if we look at the series through the lens of real literary criticism, it's got a lot of flaws. It's a little tiring to see people worship this series, and refuse any legitimate criticism. The whole reason I joined this discussion is because someone else mentioned this fact and everyone started attacking him, and quite frankly he was right.
I think this issue is mainly restricted to certain genres, and said genres traditional are gameplay focus and thus depicted males characters this way make the story passable and focus on the gameplay, and usually the design is pretty fitting with the game's setting. I thought the heavy design of the characters and weapons in unreal tournament were pretty appropriate.
This may be my inner savage speaking, but I never understood the appeal of art being so pretentious other than to stroke the egos of those who enjoy it and those who made it? Enlightenment is good and all but sometimes I'd prefer just an enjoyable adventure or a simple message rather than having common sense, in the guise of something seemingly deep and profound, shoe horned in and I'd prefer that books, movies, music, and video games not be judge by that.Fox12 said: