So what's your take on this "Forest Boy of Germany" crap?

[Darkmantle]

There is some seriously sick shit going on in this thread. The whole "the guy should just be able to abandon his child and responsibilities" argument is just so callous. It's both their responsibilities, you can't just sign away your problems. And abortion is not a quick fix solution either, it's a difficult procedure, not to be taken lightly.

To cite Wiki

Legal abortions performed in the developed world are among the safest procedures in medicine.[1][46] In the US, the risk of maternal death from abortion from 1998 to 2005 was 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, making abortion about 14 times safer than childbirth (8.8 deaths per 100,000 live births).[47][48] The risk of abortion-related mortality increases with gestational age, but remains lower than that of childbirth through at least 21 weeks' gestation.

So, what was that about a abortion being a difficult procedure not to be taken lightly?

Also, how do you feel about the reality of "A Woman totally can abandon her "child" and responsibilities, whether the father would like to keep the child or not."

Totally different, huh?

So not a lot of people die from it, that doesn't really mean shit. There are often severe mental and emotional repercussions to having an abortion, that's what makes it a difficult procedure. Not to mention it can be physically damaging, just not lethal. It's not nearly as simple as you would like to believe. You are being far too naive about this issue.

 

[Westaway]

It puzzles me how people can say "Oh, just get an abortion!" like it's not a big thing, like it's not a life-altering medical procedure, like it doesn't result in a lifetime of guilt and social stigma after the act.

Fair enough, it's easier said than done. However, there are also downsides the baby
-Social stigma of teen mom/dad
-Money
-Time
-You can't go to school
The list goes on. At the end of the day, having the abortion is the best thing to do.

And ignoring those sorts of feelings and emotions for the moment, abortions are also costly procedures, and he should at least be responsible for his share of the operation.

Naturally. If he refused to pay, that means that he accepts the child.

 

[BNguyen]

anyone think that maybe before sex they didn't intend on getting her pregnant but after she found out she wanted to keep the child?
I really don't think abortion should be used as a lot of commentors have stated as being a "get out of parenthood" free card, children should be more important than this to people, and if they are just seen as little more than pets that people can choose to deal with or not then I weep for humanity's future.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Also, feel free to actually adress the point "Why are you ok with women having free reign but find it atrocious when it is brought up that men should then be allowed to opt-out?"

I am confused by this stance.

I think the reasoning would be
a)some people for religious or emotional reasons would likely not want an abortion (I actually know at least one person who had an abortion and HAS suffered pretty severe depression and regret since then. I also know two people my age who carried to term and had the guy run out the way you're advocating, so your statistics do little to convince me it's the best option)
b)The woman's got 9 months of dealing with this come-what may, whether she keeps it or not, she's going to be labelled with that whereas the guy doesn't really get anything? In the case of one of the examples above he managed to get a SECOND girl pregnant 4 months into my friend's pregnancy, because nobody cared
c)I don't think anyone's saying he doesn't get a say, they just aren't saying it's 50:50 since only one person is pregnant. The guy can make his case but she's going to have final say, much like he would if she suggested he get a vasectomy.

Actually, that's a good example, if a guy opts out of being a father, signs a form and skips off I argue he gets an irreversible vasectomy or sterilisation. Cos he's opted out of being a father, right? Running parrallel with the whole 'make the situation oppressive so women seek out abortions' make the situation serious enough that the guy might feel he has CONSEQUENCES to his actions.

Crazt, I even started on your side of this argument.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Also, feel free to actually adress the point "Why are you ok with women having free reign but find it atrocious when it is brought up that men should then be allowed to opt-out?"

I am confused by this stance.

What's confusing about it? Yeah, it doesn't make sense, that's why I'm arguing against it.

I think the reasoning would be
a)some people for religious or emotional reasons would likely not want an abortion (I actually know at least one person who had an abortion and HAS suffered pretty severe depression and regret since then. I also know two people my age who carried to term and had the guy run out the way you're advocating, so your statistics do little to convince me it's the best option)

Here's the thing. It doesn't matter if someone wants to or not. It is entirely irrelevant. Also, you disagreeing with the statistics also means nothing.

b)The woman's got 9 months of dealing with this come-what may, whether she keeps it or not,

I assume you mean if she gives it up for adoption or not? Because if you mean "whether she has a abortion or not" you are simply wrong.

she's going to be labelled with that whereas the guy doesn't really get anything?

What is she going to be labelled by? And the guy doesn't get labeled? How often has Deadbeat-Dad been said in this discussion alone?

In the case of one of the examples above he managed to get a SECOND girl pregnant 4 months into my friend's pregnancy, because nobody cared

You have a fatal flaw in your thinking here. A guy can't manage to get a woman pregnant the way you are suggesting if any contraception is in place. That's because the woman is ultimately the more powerful party when it comes to non-permanent contraception aswell. A woman knows whether she is on birth control or not. She knows if she has been taking her pills correctly. A man has to take her word for it when consenting to sex, he can't know if she is taking the medication correctly unless he is consistently forcing her to take it everyday. A woman on the other hand can see a condom. So, a guy doesn't get a woman pregnant, a woman allows herself to become pregnant.

c)I don't think anyone's saying he doesn't get a say, they just aren't saying it's 50:50 since only one person is pregnant. The guy can make his case but she's going to have final say, much like he would if she suggested he get a vasectomy.

No, it is 100:0. A man has 0 actual leverage, he has no "say". He can make a suggestion, but that's it. I could also suggest to you that you jump off a bridge, that however doesn't mean that I had any part in the actual decision when you jump off that bridge.

Actually, that's a good example, if a guy opts out of being a father, signs a form and skips off I argue he gets an irreversible vasectomy or sterilisation.

And I point out that that is a false equalvilance. Do we remove a womans reproductive organs if she ever has a abortion? Oh, we don't?

Cos he's opted out of being a father...

...to that specific child. Not all possible children forever.

Running parrallel with the whole 'make the situation oppressive so women seek out abortions' make the situation serious enough that the guy might feel he has CONSEQUENCES to his actions.

He would already have consequences, the same as the woman getting the abortion, he isn't considered a father and he has no way back. Same thing.

Crazt, I even started on your side of this argument.

And considering how bad your arguments are, you probably shouldn't have strayed. But while I'm here, it just so happens that one of my favorite YouTubers uploaded 2 Videos discussing this subject in the last few hours. She explains it better then I can. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdq2zqGxgY&feature=g-all-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYxlmRRnkw&feature=g-all-c

I think we may be arguing at cross-purposes, you're advocating that men have the option of if a girl gets pregnant they can just sign a waiver to parenthood and it's now the woman's problem, is that right or is that me inferring that? Because if you are then what reason would a man have to use contraceptives? The example I gave (which was apparently not explained all that well) the guy didn't use condoms solely because he could walk away and your arguments APPEAR to be supporting this, correct me if you aren't trying to say this. Incidentally, the girl wasn't on the pill which I imagine will now be used as a justification for this being entirely her fault but I'm not making an argument based on deceit.

You also draw a false equivalence between 'deciding not to be a father' and 'deciding to abort a baby'. One is admitting you aren't responsible enough for a child (amongst a plethora of other reasons) the other is saying "I am not a father", there are literally no consequences to just skipping out under the conditions you outline if there's a 'Be a dad now, or never' clause it's pretty draconian but there needs to be a deterrant.

The 9 months thing was about abortion, incidentally. You say you know someone who's had an abortion, ask them how other women treated them after they heard. Especially older women. Because I know what happened with my friend. There's a stigma attached to having an abortion which doesn't extend into men, 'deadbeat dad' is not even a comparison. I know kindof a lot of people who don't judge men in that situation too harshly (I appear to be the exception since I dislike the guy I mentioned) so I'm not feeling that the stigma applies too badly.

Continuing on, do you think you need leverage to have a discussion with someone? Yeah, the decision will be hers but again, it's HER body, even marriage contracts don't give you total dominion any more. If it was the man who got pregnant it'd also be entirely his choice at the end if he kept it. I can see where you're coming from, but this isn't one of those Right/Wrong scenarios, even if the current system feels unfair to one gender you can't massively swing it the other way as an equaliser.