Socialized Health Care
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You actually trust our corrupt, overpayed, uninterested government to do the right thing?Rajin Cajun said:
I realize that, but until that happens I don't want them having any more control or money than they already do, regardless of what it is for.Nmil-ek said:
No but Americans don't scrutinize the government they have an uncontrollable fear of any government that actually provides services. I have seen this kind of fear mongering before and this kind of defeatism that government can not accomplish anything which is bullshit. The American Government can't because we have allowed it to become an entrenched bureaucracy but that doesn't mean government is bad.-Zen- said:
This kind of anti-government panic mongering is a carry over from our Colonialist Past and is defeatist. Government has been allowed to become corrupt because most Americans view that as the standard MO of government which just isn't true. Government can and does work for the people but only when the people maintain a control over it and at the very least stay informed and involved in the business of running the country. At this point can the American government run such a system? No but that is because we have allowed the Health Care Business to get us into a stranglehold.
I'm quite the supporter of capitalism and the free market, but health care has CLEARLY shown that in can't work in such an environment. Also, the raised taxes pay for a cause you use. You do pay for other people, but they pay for you too. It should even out. Knowing American politicians as a whole, it probably won't though. They'll do anything, or pander to any group for votes and/or money.
Although, I don't know how we would pay for it given the economic shit-tank we're in.
Although, I don't know how we would pay for it given the economic shit-tank we're in.
KSarty, since everyone recieves the same standard of care under the NHS whether they are a billionaire or a street vendor, your point is abjectly invalid.
Okay, here is a perspective from an American
I don't think it is a good idea. I know that it will help peoplewho are otherwise uninsured have health insurance. I will not deny that. Buy, BUT, I fear that it could push the private health insurance companies out of business, which is a bad thing. Because then the government would have a monopoly on the healthcare insurance industry, and monopolies are not good things.
Because how are private insurance companies supposed to compete with a compete with a company that has unlimited money? (the government)
So, I understand why people will think it is a good thing, but they must understand that our government already has a multitrillion dollar debt, and every year we sink farther and farther, imagine what paying for everyone's healthcare is going to do to the US budget.
I don't think it is a good idea. I know that it will help peoplewho are otherwise uninsured have health insurance. I will not deny that. Buy, BUT, I fear that it could push the private health insurance companies out of business, which is a bad thing. Because then the government would have a monopoly on the healthcare insurance industry, and monopolies are not good things.
Because how are private insurance companies supposed to compete with a compete with a company that has unlimited money? (the government)
So, I understand why people will think it is a good thing, but they must understand that our government already has a multitrillion dollar debt, and every year we sink farther and farther, imagine what paying for everyone's healthcare is going to do to the US budget.
I wont carry on arguing the benefits of universal healthcare, the points are made and they are totally sound and frankly people that disagree (in this case KSarty, sorry to name) are always bogged down in establishment 'daily mail' style thinking, that our society is evil and the working classes are a brutish rabble taking any chance they can to rob and cheat. Frankly mate, your so cut off from the real world i think you should not bother arguing on subjects like this, your lack of experience and education on the subject makes your argument a meaningless subjection. Why on earth do you think that somehow they are not like you?
What makes me sick is the level of brainwashing (for lack of a better term) that goes on in this subject in the US. The representation of socialised medicine as some stalinist commy plot to steal your freedom (hah) in the early 'educational' videos that were public broadcast in the US (as shown in the documentary film 'Sicko') were nothing more or less than the kind of biased propoganda used to 'brainwash' people by governments aaaaaall across the board - fascists, democrats and of course, communists.
I live in the UK, and in the fear that at some point some b*stard politicians are going to say the NHS too expensive and use the recession to bring it down. I hate the thought that there are all number of diseases and ailments that could bring me down, i cannot imagine how bad things must be when if i get ill, i would have to *pay* for the treatment of them, or even that i might not be able to *afford* the treatment no less! The NHS is so popular and unasailable that even thatcher didnt bother to try and privatise it, though she saw it fit to privatise (or. 'rob it from the poor people') our water, energy, communications and transport.
What makes me sick is the level of brainwashing (for lack of a better term) that goes on in this subject in the US. The representation of socialised medicine as some stalinist commy plot to steal your freedom (hah) in the early 'educational' videos that were public broadcast in the US (as shown in the documentary film 'Sicko') were nothing more or less than the kind of biased propoganda used to 'brainwash' people by governments aaaaaall across the board - fascists, democrats and of course, communists.
I live in the UK, and in the fear that at some point some b*stard politicians are going to say the NHS too expensive and use the recession to bring it down. I hate the thought that there are all number of diseases and ailments that could bring me down, i cannot imagine how bad things must be when if i get ill, i would have to *pay* for the treatment of them, or even that i might not be able to *afford* the treatment no less! The NHS is so popular and unasailable that even thatcher didnt bother to try and privatise it, though she saw it fit to privatise (or. 'rob it from the poor people') our water, energy, communications and transport.
I love the socialized health care system.
We still have private insurance companies in Germany for the people who want (and can afford) better service, but the most important thing is that everybody can get treated and not be indebted for the rest of their lives.
Treatments are getting better and better but also more and more costly.
We still have private insurance companies in Germany for the people who want (and can afford) better service, but the most important thing is that everybody can get treated and not be indebted for the rest of their lives.
Treatments are getting better and better but also more and more costly.
It never ceases to amaze me how people are always complaining about how slow, ineffective, and idiotic government bureaucracies are, yet they continue to want to put more and more things under the control of government bureaucracies.
Oh and another thing...
even if you LOVE the idea of Obama being your health insurer, how would you have liked Bush to be your health insurer? I guarantee you that eventually, there WILL be another president that you hate just as much as Bush, if not more. Don't forget that any power you give to Obama, you are also giving to the next Bush.
Oh and another thing...
even if you LOVE the idea of Obama being your health insurer, how would you have liked Bush to be your health insurer? I guarantee you that eventually, there WILL be another president that you hate just as much as Bush, if not more. Don't forget that any power you give to Obama, you are also giving to the next Bush.
Not necessarily. Under the same guidelines as welfare if someone managed to lie about their income to receive social help, they would most likely be exempt from some amount of taxes, meaning they wouldn't be paying into the NHS while being covered by it.Fondant said:
There have been many articles about drug dealers collecting welfare because they have no legal income to claim, but they make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. I have no reason to suspect a national health care system would be run any different. Its not a fault of the welfare or health care systems themselves, but very little investigation goes into requests for social programs such as these. Because of that the systems are severely abused.
You managed to convey what I have been trying to, thank you very much.kawligia said:
But look at the UK here, we have had socialised medicine for over 50 years, and we still have very successful private healthcare companies (such as BUPA) not to mention many singular private practises. Even were this not true, which it is, why should private companies bother to exist when we have a socialised medical system? So long as it is payed sufficiently, and the doctors and nurses payed sufficiently, their expertise is much better served treating all the people who need it not to mention limited equipment, currently reserved for the rich.j0z said:
Also, debt is not the doings of your government, it is the doing of your central banking system (the federal reserve). You see when you privatise the means to produce money, all the money in circulation in the system must be borrowed from the central bank, but when you borrow money from banks what is their benefit? The interest of course, every dollar in circulation is borrowed AT INTEREST from the central bank, thus every dollar is based on a debt owed. If all money comes with debt, where does the money to pay the debt come from? Nowhere, it doesnt come - the national debt can *never* be repayed, this is why national debt has *always* gone up.
I come from a line of Nurses (father, 2aunts, and mother for a while) and were all fans of socialized medicine. My father works in the cancer section of a hospital where the real big bills are and he can come home with a story about a 70 year old who's dying with cancer, he has about a year to live tops, but the hospital asked him to come in every 3 moths for a MRI and CAT scan to watch the tumor grow and these scans cost about 600 dollars each.
And all these scans do is milk a already dying man out of his last money and about half of the money is actually spent on the scan itself the est goes to kickbacks and overhead, and ALL they find out is that a dying man is still dying. Socializing medicine would, in theory, fix most of these problems right there and that's why i prefer it to what we have now.
And all these scans do is milk a already dying man out of his last money and about half of the money is actually spent on the scan itself the est goes to kickbacks and overhead, and ALL they find out is that a dying man is still dying. Socializing medicine would, in theory, fix most of these problems right there and that's why i prefer it to what we have now.
"The benefit of the doubt?" So, you're willing to support a plan because you like the guy who came up with it? What happened to being informed?Khedive Rex said:
This, ladies and gentlemen, is where democracy goes to hell.
"Theory" is the operative word.Larmo said:
In theory, Soviet-style Communism would lead to paradise on earth. Look how well that worked out.
I am a part of the working class, why would I think they are evil? Again someone is assuming that when I said "people who don't deserve it" I meant "everyone who is collecting". That is not what I meant at all. As I argued tooth and nail in the other thread on this topic not too long ago, I realize that there are plenty of people who genuinely need the help and I am more than willing to help them. Sadly I am of the mindset that a majority of the people collecting welfare, foodstamps, etc do not genuinely need the help and are simply leeching off the system. Those are the people I am worried about and they are the same people who will abuse a national health care system, just as they are abusing the welfare system right now.Adrianis said:
I was against it. Then I watched SiCKO. Even though I HATE Michael Moore, that movie made some extremely interesting points and the countries with socialized health care looked much better off than in America. As much as I hate to say it, Michael Moore was right and I would recommend watching it.
Diversify, plenty of things need insurance, not just health care. The rich in England still opt for private care, so there is still a market. It will just need to become more competative as health insurance will be a luxury, not a need. You get tap water in your home but peopel still pay for bottled water. Its a similar idea. Your need is met but there are luxury options.j0z said:
Rich folks don't want to mingle with the masses, you need to offer this. Id prefer a few parasitic companies go under than children die of often treatable ailments because there families cant afford the treatment.
When I trained as a paramedic with houston fire department about 80% of transports went unpaid. In 1999 the average run with no treatment was $400. So you're already paying for this because the system is broken.
I'm in favor of an alternative public healthcare option. The Idea is that the general public is offered a free option when it comes to healthcare, but its still an option to have private insurence. Of coarse, why should anyone pay for insurence then?
If a free option is given to the public, then insurence companies only have two options: Improve quality and prices (not fucking people over at evey chance they get would help too), or simply fade into oblivion.
An insurence company is a buisness, and paying for your cusomer's treatment is bad for buisness, so most try their best to avoid doing so. If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.
If a free option is given to the public, then insurence companies only have two options: Improve quality and prices (not fucking people over at evey chance they get would help too), or simply fade into oblivion.
An insurence company is a buisness, and paying for your cusomer's treatment is bad for buisness, so most try their best to avoid doing so. If the government can offer a free option (even if it doesn't work as well) then it would bring insurence companies down to their knees and force them to improve to the point where the quality of insurence is worth the price.
