Some actual real Half Life developments...

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SextusMaximus

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AverageJoe said:
SextusMaximus said:
I disagree again, I don't think Half Life 2 can stand up at all against games like CoD Black Ops today, I don't even like Black Ops, however Half Life 2 has aged awfully... However good it was in 2004, it just doesn't stand up well today.
It's fine to me that you think that, but I don't understand why, and i've yet to hear any reasons from anyone.
I appreciate that back in the day it was the new big thing, but because of that fact, so many other games have copied it, and some have done it better. The graphics are obviously out of date by now (I actually LOVE playing the first Half Life game btw, I think it's a much better game than number 2 and I played the first afterwards), the engine is old (it IS a good engine, but for God's sake, there's only so much you can do with so many updates), the guns aren't creative compared to some of the stuff you get with the likes of Halo, there's also FAR more variation of weapons in other games (Dead Rising 2, Borderlands, etc.), the puzzles have been done and done better (some are fun, just not as creative as others - mainly puzzle titles to be fair), the enemies are repetitive, the enemies are repetitive (see what I did there?), the enemies are also very bland (HL1 enemies were far more creative and fun!), the cut scenes MAY be interactive, but they're also extremely bland - sure you can move around in them, but at the end of the day, you just watch people talk - pre rendered cinematics provide the opportunity for a much more varied and cinematic cutscene; of course a good example of a cutscene where you can move around is Battlefield BC 2, the intro - however that provides the beautiful and cinematic environment HL2 just doesn't provide anymore. The atmosphere and story are the only things that really hold up in terms of the game being playable today, and that's not - in my opinion - enough to warrant a playthrough.

and yeah, some of these details don't apply in the utterly awesome Ravenholm chapter. But just... shh. SHHHH.

I might also add, these complaints were all invalid in 2004 when the game was released (it was 2004, right?) - my argument is not that the game is bad, but that the game has aged poorly.

Examples of games that have aged well? Thief games, Stronghold series, Rome Total War - all games with a set focus on gameplay that few other games have taken advantage of, sadly so many companies have taken advantages of HL2's gameplay that it has been outdone many - a -time.
 

TheYellowCellPhone

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Portal 2 hasn't even taken a full step out the door and people are already speculating about Episode 3.

Sheesh, do you guys get bored of having something new for eighteen seconds?
 

Kjakings

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TheYellowCellPhone said:
Portal 2 hasn't even taken a full step out the door and people are already speculating about Episode 3.

Sheesh, do you guys get bored of having something new for eighteen seconds?
We've been speculating about episode 3 for three and a half years. It's just that Valve appears to be dropping hints now.
 

Hyper-space

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Gabanuka said:
Why do I have a deep seated fear that episode 3 is gonna be shit?
It will be short, but with an AAA budget the short amount of gameplay will probably be solid, but thats it. Do not expect anything else than maybe 8 hours top of gameplay.

Its truly amazing that the industry has yet to catch on to Valve's formula of expansion pack-sized games with a triple A budget.
 

repeating integers

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Hyper-space said:
Gabanuka said:
Why do I have a deep seated fear that episode 3 is gonna be shit?
It will be short, but with an AAA budget the short amount of gameplay will probably be solid, but thats it. Do not expect anything else than maybe 8 hours top of gameplay.

Its truly amazing that the industry has yet to catch on to Valve's formula of expansion pack-sized games with a triple A budget.
Well if it is actually the full Half-Life 3 and not just episode 3, we can expect it to be as long as Half-Life 2... which lasted me 15 hours on Normal.

Granted, much of the length was filler, but still.
 

Elemental

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Hyper-space said:
Gabanuka said:
Why do I have a deep seated fear that episode 3 is gonna be shit?
It will be short, but with an AAA budget the short amount of gameplay will probably be solid, but thats it. Do not expect anything else than maybe 8 hours top of gameplay.

Its truly amazing that the industry has yet to catch on to Valve's formula of expansion pack-sized games with a triple A budget.
Valve are not idiots, they realize the hype that surrounds this series and they will do the best they can to give you the experience they intended to, the only problem is that it will take a long long time.
Since it's such an expected game the campaign will be as long as it needs to be to fully deliver the story and wrap up the franchise, so my bet on it that it will be long.
 

Hyper-space

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OhJohnNo said:
Hyper-space said:
Gabanuka said:
Why do I have a deep seated fear that episode 3 is gonna be shit?
It will be short, but with an AAA budget the short amount of gameplay will probably be solid, but thats it. Do not expect anything else than maybe 8 hours top of gameplay.

Its truly amazing that the industry has yet to catch on to Valve's formula of expansion pack-sized games with a triple A budget.
Well if it is actually the full Half-Life 3 and not just episode 3, we can expect it to be as long as Half-Life 2... which lasted me 15 hours on Normal.

Granted, much of the length was filler, but still.
The thing is, Half-Life 2 had too much of "oh it looks like a doorway but there is an inexplicable wall blocking you" level design and its such a cheap way to pad out the length. At least in MW2 they didn't dick around with endless amounts of dead-end passages.

Thats what bother me the most about the Half-life series (not the first one, haven't played that), its that they make out the environment to be expansive and open-ended, when in fact its just one long corridor. Coupled with the mono-approach to the combat and what you have is a mediocre shooter with nice aesthetics.
 

Kjakings

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I really think Valve just need to take a quick step back and focus themselves on Half-Life for a while. L4D2 will keep itself since Valve loves to embrace community projects and the Portal fans are satiated for now.
 

Woodsey

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yookiwooki said:
What would you do if you're playing Portal 2 and suddenly a portal appears and gordon freeman jumps out?
Having just finished Portal 2, I can confirm that this definitely does happen.

That Freeman is just so crazy.


jbchillin said:
half life 2 episode 3 is like the new duke nukem. but it will take twice as long to release.
If someone could explain to me how a game officially announced 14 years ago is comparable to a game that we suspect has been getting worked on for the past 4 years but really quite possibly hasn't been , I'd love to know.

immovablemover said:
Have never understood the hype surrounding half life, At all, It's like halo; Mediocre but held up like some sort of God.

I'd like to see The Half Life franchise step into this generation of story telling and gameplay, but I don't see it happening - The "Fans" would shit bricks.
That's because this generation of story telling involves cutscenes every 5 seconds, wrestling control from the player, and constant exposition. And bad voice acting and average-at-best dialogue.

As for gameplay, it has driving and shooting and some light puzzles. Any changes to the gameplay would be tweaks. And no, Gordon doesn't need to only carry 2 guns at once.
 

AlternatePFG

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Honestly, I don't really care about Episode 3 at this point. I enjoyed Half Life 2 but not enough to get hyped for a game that has hardly even been mentioned by Valve.
 

AceAngel

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MiracleOfSound said:
AceAngel said:
Valve is like the Cohen Brothers, they make games that attract the most pretentious group of people who try to act better than you for knowing more about it. Playing Portal and Half-Life plus all the bull-crap spin-off from GearBox somehow makes you better than everyone else.
Bit of a generalization there... some of us just enjoy their games. I love Half Life 2 to bits, enjoyed Portal a lot but I'm not a fan of L4D. In fact I rather dislike L4D.
Well, if you noticed, I said 'attract' without any generalization term, so while it can go both ways, I meant something different (and still do).

This means that while there are MANY people out there to enjoy, dislike, worship or outright loathe their game, this doesn't hide the fact that Valve simply has a subset of gamers who are the most pretentious and self-righteous ones ever known.

What about the recent Portal 2 reviews? People are calling it dumbed down already. I know a couple of guys on those reviews, they're not trolling, they're fanboy and they love Valve...sure, not everyone hates it, but this doesn't make it any less poisonous.

Hitman Dread said:
AceAngel said:
Valve is like the Cohen Brothers, they make games that attract the most pretentious group of people who try to act better than you for knowing more about it.
How in the world is O Brother Where Art Thou pretentious?

While Half-Life 2 is a game that does so many things right and I love it, saying that Gordon Freeman is the best character ever is a big mistake. If anyone actually knows two craps about story-telling in games, they'll know that it's not Gordon Freeman who is the character of the game, but the world itself.

Valve have poured alot of thought into designing the characters and world in such a way to bring things together (and the Commentary on both games only reinforces my point) but no one realized that, not even Valve fans.

Yet as soon as that as they made the commentary, everyone thought of themselves as high-browed mini Yahtzees.

I guess the thing is the Cohen brothers were always able to make some kind of commentary without stooping down too low. Take Scream movies for example, they always go through the same motion while always making fun or nodding to some kind of commentary blatantly obvious, but the Cohen brothers always nudged you, forcing you to find the rest intsead of screaming in your face for 2 hours, (Homers Odyssey, current generation politics, socio-chronic struggles, etc...) and naturally, this will cause, for a lack of better terms, assholes to come and comment on how avant-garde the movies are and/or was.

Their movies can be enjoyed by everyone, but the number of people who are hipsters and vouch for their movies is alarmingly high.

believer258 said:
You copied the first bit of that from one of the Gamesradar comments, now, didn't you? Shame! Plagiarism! (/sarcasm)
Actually, I was going to make a Scream comparison but felt it was too crude, and that person had it coming, when someone quotes me offsite from another thread and hopes to get away with it, I'll be sure to pay back the favor.
 

repeating integers

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Hyper-space said:
OhJohnNo said:
Hyper-space said:
Gabanuka said:
Why do I have a deep seated fear that episode 3 is gonna be shit?
It will be short, but with an AAA budget the short amount of gameplay will probably be solid, but thats it. Do not expect anything else than maybe 8 hours top of gameplay.

Its truly amazing that the industry has yet to catch on to Valve's formula of expansion pack-sized games with a triple A budget.
Well if it is actually the full Half-Life 3 and not just episode 3, we can expect it to be as long as Half-Life 2... which lasted me 15 hours on Normal.

Granted, much of the length was filler, but still.
The thing is, Half-Life 2 had too much of "oh it looks like a doorway but there is an inexplicable wall blocking you" level design and its such a cheap way to pad out the length. At least in MW2 they didn't dick around with endless amounts of dead-end passages.

Thats what bother me the most about the Half-life series (not the first one, haven't played that), its that they make out the environment to be expansive and open-ended, when in fact its just one long corridor. Coupled with the mono-approach to the combat and what you have is a mediocre shooter with nice aesthetics.
Well the game definitely isn't all it's made out to be. The length for which it is so vaunted is mostly, as you say, fake and cheap - most games have at least one level that could be classed as "filler", but with Half-life 2 nearly the entire first act could be removed with few consequences. Seriously, it takes 6 levels to actually get to a plot beyond "run away" (that's not an attempt to oversimplify it, it's literally the entire plot at that point).

But I still enjoyed it. IMO, it's no Halo, but it really got going in Nova Prospekt and kept its momentum through to the endgame. It actually got an active plot, the levels improved in many respects (the strider battles were always memorable, even if they did take the dubious route of "introduce the new boss fights and then immediately throw billions of them at you" like with the Gunships) and there were some cool gimmicks.

Episode 1 and Episode 2 could easily have all been one game though - because they followed the same pattern. Episode 1, no plot other than "escape" (and it was silly anyway - why couldn't the Vortigaunts teleport you outside City 17, rather than right next to the tower?), while Episode 2 got going quickly and was more consistently fun.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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starfox444 said:
From another perspective:
Half Life 2 is a revolutionary 2004 games which plays like an average 2010 game. I meant that in the nicest possible way.
I honestly don't think it was revolutionary. Extraordinary in it's quality of iteration perhaps but that is as far as I'm going to go with it. If you step way back and look at the governing principles of the game, you find that progress through the game is predicated upon a few principles:

1) Combat is a game of resource management. A player is expected to expend some portion of their available health and ammunition to proceed.

2) Players must solve minor puzzles in order to proceed.

3) Storytelling is largely done through gameplay and environmental design.

If we take the first 2 points and add a third, that players must navigate a maze, you have the basic working principles of any of the early FPS games (Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, etc). The last point was already seen in Half-Life and Unreal (notably) along with several games in the intervening years.

The specifics of physics system and gravity gun that people point to were also done elsewhere.

Where the game really does become notable is when you compare it to other titles of the moment. The major PC competition came in the form of Doom 3 and Farcry. The former was a technical marvel but was disliked by many for the simple fact that it discarded many of the fundamental design elements of the series in favor of a really dark corridor and fighting small numbers of enemies in close quarters (The previous games never really succeeded at being scary in any respect and it focused on mazes, minor puzzle solving, and combat as a resource management element). If we do the same thing to Doom 3 we get:

1) Combat as a game of resource management

2) Story told through forced means (cutscenes) and discoverable recordings

3) Horror built through little more than forcing the player to choose between being able to see and being able to defend themselves (Forced vulnerability. This same idea is found in Resident Evil's refusal to let the player move and fire at the same time).

The other game, Farcry, Looks something like this:
1) Combat as a game of resource management (to a lesser extent than the previous two)

2) Story told through both forced means and through the environment

3) World presented as a "sandbox".

All three of these games were similar in that they eschewed the (even at the time) common system of regenerating health in favor of having a limited supply of health and, as such, combat in all three tends to be somewhat predictable. Progress in any of the games is relatively deliberate as players generally try to maximize their progress at a minimum cost of ammunition and health.

Combat does, however, differ between the three in specific cases. In Doom, there is little to speak of in terms of AI. Enemies appear at close range and attack relentlessly until they die having no instinct of self preservation. Farcry had fairly exceptional AI, even if it did tend to cheat but the nature of the game was such that, if the player could manage it, battles took place at extreme range and were little more than plinking fests. When forced in close quarters, enemies were not terribly clever and the reliance on real world weapons meant that there was little real variety between enemies (An enemy with a machine gun was basically like an enemy with a rifle except the guy with a rifle has to reload a hair more regularly). Half-Life 2 split the difference and had a variety of weapons which helped to break up the monotony of combat and gave the players battles in conditions from claustrophobic situations to open beaches ripe for sniping.

Both Doom and Farcry relied, for the most part, on artificial means to convey information to the player. In the case of Doom, this was done (mostly) in the form of recordings left scattered about meaning a player was entirely free to miss out on plot information simply because they didn't notice the item in the dark. Farcry often relied on cut scenes to do the same job. By contrast, the story of Half-Life 2, though strictly speaking no better than the other two, was told through the world and gameplay. It certainly goes to show that there is value in this technique. Even though the story of HL2 is full of plot holes and absurdities like it's peers, it is generally regarded as a triumph of storytelling simply because the player discovered these details themselves rather than being handed them on a silver platter. Few people would note the quality of the story in Doom 3 in spite of the fact it is largely the same story as Half-Life (and is, all told, fairly interesting while playing at least) and fewer still would even recall the story of Far Cry (I played that game to the end and I only vaguely recall what happened because of all the loopy twists and turns the story took at every opportunity).

It is only in the last area that the three are truly different. Doom tried to be scary and it worked for a time but eventually you come to learn it's patterns and the gloom ceases being frightening and is little more than annoyance by the end. Farcry's open nature made for a beautiful game but the result was that there were few epic moments to remember. Having a linear game does offer some advantages in that the designer at least knows that a player is going to show up at some point and will have an idea of what they have at their disposal when they arrive. Half-Life 2, in keeping with the tradition of Half-Life, is an elaborate corridor designed such that it seems to be a maze that the player is remarkably adept at traversing. In most cases, every thing in the world has a purpose and the world actually looks like a place where people might live or work were it not for an alien invasion. The move to a physics based puzzle system rather than the more arbitrary ones common in older games helped reinforce immersion since, at least some of the time, things worked the way we thought they should. I'm sure I'm not the only one who smiled when they solved that very first physics puzzle in the most obvious way: I broke the chunk of wood holding the drawbridge up!

All told, Half-Life 2 is little more than an iteration of Half-Life which, itself, only had a few notable departures from classic FPS. The first was grounding the story in something resembling reality and the second was that the maze, as a concept, was generally discarded in favor of the complex corridor system.

Indeed, if one wants to look at a revolutionary game from a similar time frame, look no further than Halo. That was a game that discarded the notion of combat a resource management system almost entirely with regenerating health and a near endless supply of weapons and ammunition and eliminated the puzzle aspect entirely creating the modern basis for the FPS as a game built entirely upon pure action. You might not like it, (and indeed Halo wasn't even the first game that did these things; it was just the game that, thanks to its runaway success, started the ball rolling inexorably in that direction) but then not every revolution is a success.
 

Gaiseric

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Don't get my hopes up. I don't want to even get the idea in my head that Ep. 3 might actually come out.
 

Hyper-space

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OhJohnNo said:
citizen snip
Agreed, the first act in Half-life 2 was especially disappointing to me because of the scenery. They start you off in a eastern-european town with a 1984-esque vibe to it (aroused my curiosity) and then stick you in a sewer for the entirety of the act. What the fuck! why make such a interesting place if you are just going to make us trudge through sewer waste.
 

repeating integers

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Hyper-space said:
OhJohnNo said:
citizen snip
Agreed, the first act in Half-life 2 was especially disappointing to me because of the scenery. They start you off in a eastern-european town with a 1984-esque vibe to it (aroused my curiosity) and then stick you in a sewer for the entirety of the act. What the fuck! why make such a interesting place if you are just going to make us trudge through sewer waste.
I'll admit the atmosphere in some parts of act 1 had my interest (there was a bit in Water Hazard where I got out of the horrible airboat for a bit, and looked around at the scattered houses and water towers and heard the wind whistling...). And I'm not sure if Ravenholm is technically part of the first act (it's still part of the "run away to get to the plot" part of the game), but if it is then that's the high point as it's very atmospheric and creepy. But on the whole, it was a slow start the game could have done without.

Also, did you notice how it was supposed to be an eastern european town, yet everybody spoke English in an American accent? You could at least have given them foreign accents, sheesh Valve.
 

Mahorfeus

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Hyper-space said:
OhJohnNo said:
citizen snip
Agreed, the first act in Half-life 2 was especially disappointing to me because of the scenery. They start you off in a eastern-european town with a 1984-esque vibe to it (aroused my curiosity) and then stick you in a sewer for the entirety of the act. What the fuck! why make such a interesting place if you are just going to make us trudge through sewer waste.
...because you end up trudging through the city the entire second half of the game anyway?

I dare to hope that Valve is finally going to make its move on Half Life Ep/3; I've been speculating for a while that they would show some development after Portal 2's release. In a way, I feel as though the game was needed to enmesh the scope of Aperture Science's existence. Now that that's out of the way, the next Half Life game can waltz in and we'd be none the wiser.
 

Hyper-space

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OhJohnNo said:
Also, did you notice how it was supposed to be an eastern european town, yet everybody spoke English in an American accent? You could at least have given them foreign accents, sheesh Valve.
exactly, its like coming to Texas and everyone talks with an Australian accent.