Some people think I like calling games sexist. This just isn't true.

[grassgremlin]

Sexist means harmful towards women.
So bayonetta is harmful?

Uhhh...No it doesn't. I don't even know how you got to "sexism means harmful."

Nevermind I was wrong.

 

[Vault101]

[
What else do you suggest though? There's not much else you can do to paint someone as complete and total bastard.

there's plenty you can do but (topic at hand aside) slapping a currently socially unacceptable value on someone is easy but lazy, I'm not saying don't do it but depending on what your going for you need to do more than that

its easy to make someone evil, but harder to make them evil and compelling

again I'm just saying "oh lets rape some bitches now" [i/]can be lazy[/i] i8n the same way killing of the girlfreind for a motivator is lazy

 

[Vault101]

Hell I love the movie crash, easily one of my favorite movies, but that movie is loaded with racism/sexism, and I wouldn't change a bit about it, because that's what they wanted to make.

erm...you do realise there's a difference between something [i/]being[/i] racist/sexist is not the same as [i/]having[/i] racism/sexism?

crash is a film that frames racism as bad and explores how it affects people blah blah blah, that doesn't mean a film like crash can't fail in its attempted have...problems...but again its about framing

or if you need an exmaple...

in Adam Sandlers movie "Anger Managment" theres a segment where his crazy therapist drives him to a place where they park and he invites a tranvestie or trans hooker into the car. The joke is now Sandlers charachter is reeeeaaally uncomfortable and "lol isn't this weird/gross" it ends with him screaming "I DON'T WANNA HAVE SEX WITH A SHE-MALE OK??" and then saying he's gonan throw up. Nicholsons charachter even described the incident as an exercise in "rightous" anger (which is so fucking WRONG I don't know where to begin) overall the scene is uncomfortable and not funny. Its transphobic

in the TV seres OITNB there is a transwoman called Sophia, while we don;t see her experience anything REALLY bad there are scenes where a few characters are clearly not comfortable with her...alongside the odd joke/remark. This is not framed to be at that charachters expense, only to show us the kind of world sophia lives in (while discrimination his part of her arc it deals more with her personal transitioning and the relationship with her son) OITNB is not transphobic


[quote/]Not every piece of media needs to be critiqued one way or the other[/quote]
actually yes...yes it does...or at least [b/]everything is open to critique[/b] weather or not one might agree or listen is up to them

[quote/]to be policed or have it changed,[/quote]
which is generally NOT A THING most of the time

no ones fucking asking for women to be put in the shawshank redemption and I get the impression those who create thease ideas (soooo many people on this site) are projecting

and ultimately if something IS changes it is by the decision of the creator

[quote/]I'm not saying don't have an opinion either, but I swear I can smell bra's burning ,.[/quote]

but but what? have one thats agreeable?

and bra burnings never happened

 

[Erttheking]

The only thing I would say is sexist about Metro: Last Light is that Artoym and Anna play out a rather cliched romance, which pretty much comes out of nowhere and involves a pointless sex scene as if ticking off boxes on some imagined checklist of "Generic action adventure tropes". Other then that, she is portrayed as a highly competent sniper who practically escorts Artyom to the surface and escapes after he gets captured by Reich Stalkers. Thus, I would argue that Metro is not inherently sexist but portrays sexist societies, which is what you'd expect for underground post-apocalyptic Russia.

As for your frustrations your grace, I recommend sitting back, taking a deep breath and plot the murder of male game developers relax while reading the following inspirational captcha: "you rock!"

Erm. The highly competent sniper bit is kind of an informed ability. I mean what does she really do in game? She helps you with one fight against Watchers, a fight that wasn't really that difficult, tries unsuccessfully to snipe the Dark One Child, does nothing while Artyom is captured by the Nazis (Seriously, she should have been in the perfect position to snipe them and save him). She helps him with the fight against the giant Shrimp mutant (which she did from a fortified church on the other side of a river with half a dozen other rangers backing her up. And her help still didn't make a noticeable impact. After that she gets captured and has to be rescued by Artyom, doesn't do much to save herself, has sex with Arytom, and then doesn't show up for the final battle even though it's the Rangers last stand and the fate of the entire Metro hangs in the balance. And in the bad ending she's shown as being the mother of Artyom's child, and in the good ending where they focus on the heroics of the Ranger order she's shown as...nothing because she's not mentioned in that ending. Really after she has sex with Artyom she stops having any importance in the plot. She's...not a very impressive character. And I mean that in terms of writing.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

Ert, I jut wanted to say I absolutely understand and feel the same way.

I want to love games, I want them to be good and I don't want to feel disappointed, offended and excluded from them. But sometimes I do and I try to shrug it off because it's a good game in other aspects, and then it keeps hurting me.

And sometimes I'm afraid of pointing things out that are unfair or offensive because some people will think I'm just doing it because I hate the game or hate men or just want attention. This is not the case.

I' a gamer. I want to love games and not be offended by them, is that too much to ask?

It actually is because you can disagree and be offended by art. But you can't ask for it be removed. For example, I hate Kazimir Malevich's avant-garde works like Black square or Suprematist Composition. They are just colored rectangle shapes that are worth 60 million bucks. It genuinely disgusts me that his simplistic work is so popular, that it represents Russia's art abroad. But i'm not going to go to a museum and demand for it to be removed on account of my complex realist sensibilities. Art is there to bring out emotions in you, and some of those emotions might be unintended and negative.

I'm not asking for all sexist games to be removed. I don't want censorship and there will always be some gamers that want games others feel offended by.

As of today there exists small indie games that are about racism and neo-nazism. I find it disgusting, but there will be people who will play them. There are also many, many indie and AAA games that have attitudes towards women and other "minorities" that I find disgusting, but there will be people who will play them too. There are also Justin Bieber dating sims that I'm disgusted by, but I'm not trying to censor them either. I'm just asking for games that I can play.

Opinion what is offensive is subjective and if I don't like a game, I can choose just not to play it. It's just sad having the criteria of not sexist portrayal of women limits the number of games I can play so much. One would think that in this day and age we would have gotten further both culturally (and this includes films and books too) and as a society towards equality (and yes this includes men and stereotypes against men too).

I don't like indie Neo-Nazi games anymore than you do, but comparing them to AAA gaming is ridiculous because there is definite intent for bigotry in those games. Most of the AAA games I've viewed as sexist were viewed like that by the majority of gamers(The other M, Ride to Hell). Again, you are not being excluded from games because you chose to exclude yourself(Nobody prevented you from playing any games).And there are plenty of games coming out that have great female protagonists; I'm playing Bayonetta 2 right now, then there was Child of light, Transistor(I really enjoyed that one),DOA 5, Hyrule Warriors...

The issue is that what you might view sexist is subjective. You might not like damsels in distress,skimpy outfits, jiggle physics , but that does not make the games that include them sexist. All that stuff might be aimed at the male demographic, since we make up over 80% of core gamer demographic(according to NPD). But I don't see how any of that would impede you from enjoying the game. Equality in entertainment is improbable because different demographics like different things. For example, you might like Twilight because majority of women like the fantasy of mysterious shirtless guys fighting over them, and men like to add brownie point for spending time with their partners watching stupid fantasy of mysterious shirtless guys fighting over girl with an emotional range of a 2x4.

 

[prpshrt]

Did not know this <_<
Well I still standby what I said tho (minus the japan thing because of what you've mentioned) :\

I'd personally think this would be a massive blow to your line of reasoning.

Yes and no. I'm very opinionated like that (probably for the worse)

 

[Gamer87]

I don't like indie Neo-Nazi games anymore than you do, but comparing them to AAA gaming is ridiculous because there is definite intent for bigotry in those games. Most of the AAA games I've viewed as sexist were viewed like that by the majority of gamers(The other M, Ride to Hell).

Just because a minority is offended by something, that does not make it less offensive to them.

Again, you are not being excluded from games because you chose to exclude yourself(Nobody prevented you from playing any games).

Agreed, I simply ask for more games that I don't have to exclude myself from. What this thread is about after all is the right to express one's disappointment.

Every gamer/comic book enthusiast/film geek has the right to express their love or disapointment with a work. And every gamer/comic book enthusiast/film geek have the right to want more of the kind of games/comics/films that they prefer. I as a gamer want more games with good portrayal of women, I as a movie goer want to see a Hulk movie with Ruffalo, the Rulk.

I am simply expressing my opinion and my taste. It's just that from what I have experienced, expressing the want to see less offensive portrayal of women in games is often met with a very negative and agressive attitude and that makes me sad.

The issue is that what you might view sexist is subjective. You might not like damsels in distress,skimpy outfits, jiggle physics , but that does not make the games that include them sexist.

Handled right, I have no problem with damels in distress, skimpy outfits and jiggle physics, but from my experience and accordng to my taste it's most often handled in a way that offends me.

All that stuff might be aimed at the male demographic, since we make up over 80% of core gamer demographic(according to NPD). But I don't see how any of that would impede you from enjoying the game. Equality in entertainment is improbable because different demographics like different things.

As I said above, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to want more games/movies/stuff that they like, even if they are in minority.

For example, you might like Twilight because majority of women like the fantasy of mysterious shirtless guys fighting over them, and men like to add brownie point for spending time with their partners watching stupid fantasy of mysterious shirtless guys fighting over girl with an emotional range of a 2x4.

I really don't think a MAJORITY of women like Twilight. I have only ever met one woman who likes that crap. Making assumptions that most women like Twilight and have a boyfriend who they cause distress by forcing to watch it with them... yeah.. not too keen on that. It's just like assuming that most gamers are males who want nothing other from a game than to creep on objectified female NPCs.

Not saying that horible horrible Twilight fangirls and gross male gamer perverts don't exist, and they should have their movies and games, different folks different strokes. But I and many other gamers of both genders seem to want better portrayal of women in games. We have the right to want this and to express that want without fear of getting harassed. (not saying that you are harassing me by disagreeing)

EDIT: Okay, my passionate hatred for Twilight made me into a bit of a hypocrite. I guess it's a case of live and let live and just let everyone like what they want.

Twilight fans will advocate for more stuff like that, others will request more tentacle porn or Star Wars films more in touch with the originals or less sexist games.

I don't think the reason so many are vocal about sexism in games is that they simply are more vocal and like to complain, I think it's because the number of games that are good in that aspect is disproportionate to the number of people who want them. This percieved whining from feminists will correct itself once games become better and those who complain find their complaints adressed.

TL;DR I find many games sexist and offensive and I should be allowed to politely voice this opinion without being dismissed as some attention seeking crazy person, which was what this thread was about.

 

[Batou667]

I doubt you can imagine anyone might not buy into what is an absurd narrative constructed to attempt to rationalise fanservice.

Well, you seem to be espousing a sex-negative position because you can't understand how a female character can be simultaneously sexualised but not objectified. Your opinion denies the very possibility of a confident, sexual woman who has her own agency.

All I can say is - if Bayonetta was designed as fanservice, then the dev studio did a phenomenally poor job considering how much time and money they must have had at their disposal. If the design remit really was "make this bish as sexy as possible, that's what sells!" then they well and truly missed a trick or seventeen in not making her prettier, ditsier, better-endowed, more scantily-clad, and more of an obvious submissive wank-fantasy figure. I think the Moviebob analysis of Bayonetta is pretty accurate: Bayonetta is sexualised, but she's not presented as a ready and willing sexual fantasy, if anything she's sexually intimidating.

Fanservice exists in games. Bayonetta is a really bad example to use, though.

 

[Something Amyss]

Nevermind I was wrong.

Okay then. Well, I'm just going to follow up here and briefly say that the Boobonetta review looks like it was someone who was tired of T&A, rather than someone making an accusation of harm. I don't know this for sure, but I'm as reasonably confident as I can be without developing telepathy.

Maybe the author did think it was harmful, and some will argue all sexism is harmful, but I don't think that was the intent here.

I'd also note that the same guy has given similar review scores to several big titles he didn't accuse of being sexist with otherwise similar content in the reviews, so I don't think this was necessarily a primary driver in the score, if that's your concern.

 

[lowtech redneck]

I've beaten Fire Emblem: Awakening several times....there was a bride class?

Edit: never mind, its apparently downloadable content.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

I don't like indie Neo-Nazi games anymore than you do, but comparing them to AAA gaming is ridiculous because there is definite intent for bigotry in those games. Most of the AAA games I've viewed as sexist were viewed like that by the majority of gamers(The other M, Ride to Hell).

Just because a minority is offended by something, that does not make it less offensive to them.

Again, you are not being excluded from games because you chose to exclude yourself(Nobody prevented you from playing any games).

Agreed, I simply ask for more games that I don't have to exclude myself from. What this thread is about after all is the right to express one's disappointment.

Every gamer/comic book enthusiast/film geek has the right to express their love or disapointment with a work. And every gamer/comic book enthusiast/film geek have the right to want more of the kind of games/comics/films that they prefer. I as a gamer want more games with good portrayal of women, I as a movie goer want to see a Hulk movie with Ruffalo, the Rulk.

I am simply expressing my opinion and my taste. It's just that from what I have experienced, expressing the want to see less offensive portrayal of women in games is often met with a very negative and agressive attitude and that makes me sad.

The issue is that what you might view sexist is subjective. You might not like damsels in distress,skimpy outfits, jiggle physics , but that does not make the games that include them sexist.

Handled right, I have no problem with damels in distress, skimpy outfits and jiggle physics, but from my experience and accordng to my taste it's most often handled in a way that offends me.

All that stuff might be aimed at the male demographic, since we make up over 80% of core gamer demographic(according to NPD). But I don't see how any of that would impede you from enjoying the game. Equality in entertainment is improbable because different demographics like different things.

As I said above, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to want more games/movies/stuff that they like, even if they are in minority.

For example, you might like Twilight because majority of women like the fantasy of mysterious shirtless guys fighting over them, and men like to add brownie point for spending time with their partners watching stupid fantasy of mysterious shirtless guys fighting over girl with an emotional range of a 2x4.

I really don't think a MAJORITY of women like Twilight. I have only ever met one woman who likes that crap. Making assumptions that most women like Twilight and have a boyfriend who they cause distress by forcing to watch it with them... yeah.. not too keen on that. It's just like assuming that most gamers are males who want nothing other from a game than to creep on objectified female NPCs.

Not saying that horible horrible Twilight fangirls and gross male gamer perverts don't exist, and they should have their movies and games, different folks different strokes. But I and many other gamers of both genders seem to want better portrayal of women in games. We have the right to want this and to express that want without fear of getting harassed. (not saying that you are harassing me by disagreeing)

EDIT: Okay, my passionate hatred for Twilight made me into a bit of a hypocrite. I guess it's a case of live and let live and just let everyone like what they want.

Twilight fans will advocate for more stuff like that, others will request more tentacle porn or Star Wars films more in touch with the originals or less sexist games.

I don't think the reason so many are vocal about sexism in games is that they simply are more vocal and like to complain, I think it's because the number of games that are good in that aspect is disproportionate to the number of people who want them. This percieved whining from feminists will correct itself once games become better and those who complain find their complaints adressed.

TL;DR I find many games sexist and offensive and I should be allowed to politely voice this opinion without being dismissed as some attention seeking crazy person, which was what this thread was about.

If you feel that there is a problem with a game, don't stop at calling it sexist- explain why it is. I think that's where a lot of issues with that stem from because usage of buzzwords is not going to get people on your side. I feel confident that if your explanation is well constructed, people will be far more likely to listen to it.

 

[Dragonlayer]

The only thing I would say is sexist about Metro: Last Light is that Artoym and Anna play out a rather cliched romance, which pretty much comes out of nowhere and involves a pointless sex scene as if ticking off boxes on some imagined checklist of "Generic action adventure tropes". Other then that, she is portrayed as a highly competent sniper who practically escorts Artyom to the surface and escapes after he gets captured by Reich Stalkers. Thus, I would argue that Metro is not inherently sexist but portrays sexist societies, which is what you'd expect for underground post-apocalyptic Russia.

As for your frustrations your grace, I recommend sitting back, taking a deep breath and plot the murder of male game developers relax while reading the following inspirational captcha: "you rock!"

Erm. The highly competent sniper bit is kind of an informed ability. I mean what does she really do in game? She helps you with one fight against Watchers, a fight that wasn't really that difficult, tries unsuccessfully to snipe the Dark One Child, does nothing while Artyom is captured by the Nazis (Seriously, she should have been in the perfect position to snipe them and save him). She helps him with the fight against the giant Shrimp mutant (which she did from a fortified church on the other side of a river with half a dozen other rangers backing her up. And her help still didn't make a noticeable impact. After that she gets captured and has to be rescued by Artyom, doesn't do much to save herself, has sex with Arytom, and then doesn't show up for the final battle even though it's the Rangers last stand and the fate of the entire Metro hangs in the balance. And in the bad ending she's shown as being the mother of Artyom's child, and in the good ending where they focus on the heroics of the Ranger order she's shown as...nothing because she's not mentioned in that ending. Really after she has sex with Artyom she stops having any importance in the plot. She's...not a very impressive character. And I mean that in terms of writing.

I disagree. She gives you covering fire against several huge packs of Watchers (those are the waist-high mutants that bull-rush you right?) and lands a wounding shot on the Dark One Child - something Artyom struggles with at close range, given its psychic aura that distorts vision and screws up your aim. While she doesn't save you from the Reich Stalkers, I consider that a reasonable plot advancing moment as the surface trip would be severely anti-climatic if you get knocked out by an alien, surrounded by Neo-Nazis only for them to be easily picked off and then you and Anna go home for a nice cup of mushroom tea. And on a related note, what kind of complaint is that the sniper helps you from a sniper's nest on the other side of the river!? "Bah, Anna didn't swim across the polluted and monster-ridden water to wrestle the giant shrimp with her bare hands - what a weakling female character!"

I already acknowledged that the romance subplot was rubbish and unnecessary, and I now acknowledge your point about Anna being put aside by the game after copulation (presumably ordered by her father to stay out the last stand; sexist if perhaps understandable from a father's perspective), the "Has to be rescued" point strikes me as unfair. Artyom has to be rescued by Pavel from the Nazis, Pavel has to be saved by Artoym in the plane wreck, and both Arytom and Anna have to be rescued by Hanza forces after the burning church section. You consider her an unimpressive character, I think she's alright and just needs a bit of tweaking.

Though really, the best character is the glorious FUHRER.