Some people think I like calling games sexist. This just isn't true.

[Redd the Sock]

Sigh. You know I deal with this topic a lot in real life. People miserable at their jobs but they never try to find a better one. People in relationships past the point of abusiveness that don't move on. People that get involved in projects that can say nothing except what everyone else is doing things wrong. And yes, I've been the recipient of people that seem to have little interest in any game (or comic or whatever) I try and suggest that might be more appealing to their more feminist tastes, rather I have gotten attacked. On the other end I see the same bitching from the other side from people wanting more uniqueness in gaming or comics, but are too afraid to not buy the samey AAA titles they ***** about.

The reality is some people like to complain even if they don't admit to it. My personal take is that if you do nothing but complain about your sad lot in life and do nothing active, you are one of those people. This isn't to pick on you specifically, but ask yourself:

Have I taken suggestions for games I might like more from the other side, or do I get defensive?
Do I approach new games with an open mind, or do I start running a checklist of things it shouldn't have?
Do I emphasize the things the game gets right, or deride it if it does anything wrong, no matter how small?
Am I happy with more niche titles, or do I start making excuses why they don't count?
Do I praise companies when they doing something right more, or chastise mistakes more?
Do I accept that some games are going to greatly go against what I want, or are they open targets for the criticism of not appealing to you?

Do the latter too much and no matter what you say, I'll assume you just want to complain.

 

[Something Amyss]

Did not know this <_<
Well I still standby what I said tho (minus the japan thing because of what you've mentioned) :\

I'd personally think this would be a massive blow to your line of reasoning.

The sexually confident women who is beholden to no men whatsoever? Who actively rejects needing to be saved by the male lead?

A character designed as fan service.

Her original design drafted by a woman too even, Bayonetta is basically a third wave feminism love letter.

Her design was contracted at the behest of a developer who had input all the way through the design process. People drop that to cleave to "she was designed by a woman!" because it's convenient, and drop the rest because it isn't. That's supposed to stop conversation because a woman being sexist is absurd, right? Wrong. Women can be sexists,m blacks can be racists, gays can be homophobic, and the religious can hate religious people. So even if ti was true, it wouldn't hold any water.

you're right, I can't *imagine* how anyone could even think she's a positive example of sexuality in video games.

The problem is, that's not even really sarcasm. I doubt you can imagine anyone might not buy into what is an absurd narrative constructed to attempt to rationalise fanservice.

But even then, you took one review to be endemic of a sweeping problem in gaming, and that says more than backtracking and rationalising.

Edit: I thought this was the same poster I'd been talking to. The claims of backtracking are invalid because they were aimed at the wrong person. I stand by the rest of the issue, that this is absurd rationalisation.

 

[mecegirl]

Sometimes I feel like some gamers have really low standards. And yeah I know that sounds elitist, but I just don't give a fuck. Get mad. Or better yet, get a book. Go broaden your horizons. Read something totally different than you've ever seen before. Or at least something with a protagonist that you rarely see. And then see how much you feel the need to defend mainstream video game writing conventions.

Shitty writing is shitty writing. We already know which tropes contain outdated ideas and that are over used. Just massively over used. You have to be a shit writer to rely upon them because by now even amateurs know to avoid them. But again and again some gamers need to defend shitty writing. Because oh noes the PC police or some shit. Even Twilight fans aren't that adamant about defending their favorite. They know on some level that it's far from the best literature and they're cool with that.

 

[grassgremlin]

Polygons review of Bayonetta had me a bit concerned with what constitutes as "sexist."

I'm not sure how you get to "every game must be" whatever from there.

The game kind of is sexist, though. I'm still not sure how that's an issue. There's a large body of criticism not because every game has to change, but because within the market, virtually every game is culpable.

Is Bayonetta your idea of "sex positive?"

Sigh, I'll concede, I'm using the phrase wrong.

But, I still don't understand how Bayonetta is considered "sexist".
Sexist means harmful towards women.
So bayonetta is harmful?

 

[BadNewDingus]

Ugh. Can't we just copy and paste all the other threads about this subject on to here to save everyone's time? I know for a fact nothing is gonna get resolved because people are set in their ways. I could care less about sexism in video games. If I don't like the game, I won't play it anymore and toss it aside. I'm also not gonna live out that video game in real life and start pimp slapping women around and make them wear skimpy outfits. Of course, I'm not mental and try to push my moral beliefs on to others.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

It's out of place when those make up 50% of the female cast, and the rest of the cast isn't particularly impressive.

Except, the same thing could be said about the male cast(just exchange the prostitute for a murderer). You can't give a back-story to every character you come across.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Many games ARE sexist, that's just a fact. You don't need to cry yourself to tears or feel conflicted about it.

But I just don't see the issue with sexism in fiction/fantasy. Entire worlds and characters conjured out of imagination and dismissed just as easily, so fighting over political correctness over said stories and characters seems incredibly...I don't know, silly. Like holy crap, is that all it takes to upset people? Someone else's work of fiction?

What has the world come to? Actually that's not fair, I should be asking what America has come to since most of this drama is coming from there.

If you can't read Lord Of The Rings without losing your mind over the fact that 99% of all the most influential/powerful characters are male, then feel free to write your own epic tale however you see fit. That's the best part about fiction.

Also feel free to keep handing out a constant stream of nois--I mean "criticism" for any sexism you spot in fiction. It's incredibly important for you to keep highlighting instance of sexism in fiction (whenever and wherever possible) to everyone in the world. You can be a kind of "sexism alarm" that rings to alert people of any sexism that you find. I guess that's one way to keep busy.
Granted that Anita already does that job quite well, but more people doing the same thing doesn't hurt

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

Ert, I jut wanted to say I absolutely understand and feel the same way.

I want to love games, I want them to be good and I don't want to feel disappointed, offended and excluded from them. But sometimes I do and I try to shrug it off because it's a good game in other aspects, and then it keeps hurting me.

And sometimes I'm afraid of pointing things out that are unfair or offensive because some people will think I'm just doing it because I hate the game or hate men or just want attention. This is not the case.

I' a gamer. I want to love games and not be offended by them, is that too much to ask?

It actually is because you can disagree and be offended by art. But you can't ask for it be removed. For example, I hate Kazimir Malevich's avant-garde works like Black square or Suprematist Composition. They are just colored rectangle shapes that are worth 60 million bucks. It genuinely disgusts me that his simplistic work is so popular, that it represents Russia's art abroad. But i'm not going to go to a museum and demand for it to be removed on account of my complex realist sensibilities. Art is there to bring out emotions in you, and some of those emotions might be unintended and negative.

 

[Gamer87]

Ert, I jut wanted to say I absolutely understand and feel the same way.

I want to love games, I want them to be good and I don't want to feel disappointed, offended and excluded from them. But sometimes I do and I try to shrug it off because it's a good game in other aspects, and then it keeps hurting me.

And sometimes I'm afraid of pointing things out that are unfair or offensive because some people will think I'm just doing it because I hate the game or hate men or just want attention. This is not the case.

I' a gamer. I want to love games and not be offended by them, is that too much to ask?

It actually is because you can disagree and be offended by art. But you can't ask for it be removed. For example, I hate Kazimir Malevich's avant-garde works like Black square or Suprematist Composition. They are just colored rectangle shapes that are worth 60 million bucks. It genuinely disgusts me that his simplistic work is so popular, that it represents Russia's art abroad. But i'm not going to go to a museum and demand for it to be removed on account of my complex realist sensibilities. Art is there to bring out emotions in you, and some of those emotions might be unintended and negative.

I'm not asking for all sexist games to be removed. I don't want censorship and there will always be some gamers that want games others feel offended by.

As of today there exists small indie games that are about racism and neo-nazism. I find it disgusting, but there will be people who will play them. There are also many, many indie and AAA games that have attitudes towards women and other "minorities" that I find disgusting, but there will be people who will play them too. There are also Justin Bieber dating sims that I'm disgusted by, but I'm not trying to censor them either. I'm just asking for games that I can play.

Opinion what is offensive is subjective and if I don't like a game, I can choose just not to play it. It's just sad having the criteria of not sexist portrayal of women limits the number of games I can play so much. One would think that in this day and age we would have gotten further both culturally (and this includes films and books too) and as a society towards equality (and yes this includes men and stereotypes against men too).

 

[Rahkshi500]

Okay, Ert. Knowing that you and I may disagree on things, and might continue to disagree on things in the future, but given what has happened, I'm sorry about your depression and hope that you can get better soon. Like what some people have said before, it probably would be better If you take some time off from video games for a bit. Being enthusiastic about them is one thing, but being brought to literal tears and stress in it over some things in them is another, and it's not exactly healthy that way. Conversations work better with a more calm demeanor.

 

[Vault101]

Using an enslaved woman as a prostitute is just saying..."wow look how barbaric and bad this is, beter be afriad of this dangerous uncivilised world".

I actually have an issue with this

I don't think we actually need to keep doing it, its just a (somewhat) lazy short-hard I don't think "its realism" is always an excuse, it perpetuates the idea of woman as victims, as objects, as motivators

and you know reality or not its not one I want to be reminded of constantly

Last Of Us (if I recall) didn't have copious amounts of rape or forced enslavement and it didn't feel nutered because of that, even Fallout while it has slaves and deals with rape and such and even corruption within the sex "industry" its not constantly pushed in your face

Many games ARE sexist, that's just a fact. You don't need to cry yourself to tears or feel conflicted about it.

I dunno....constantly being reminded sexism exists through our media kind of makes me depressed now and again

 

[Something Amyss]

Sexist means harmful towards women.
So bayonetta is harmful?

Uhhh...No it doesn't. I don't even know how you got to "sexism means harmful."

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Lol. You really need to get over this and stop being affected by the names of classes in an RPG if you are getting so affected by something that isn't having a direct effect on your life. It's incredibly unhealthy.

Just because there's a class called "bride" in an RPG or that boob jiggle physics exist does not mean that these developers have it out for you.

In addition, the policing of games as having to be entirely politically correct is ruining them as art. There does not need to be a black, an asian, an indian and multiple LGBT characters in games for it to be good. The PC police ir ruining this, art should be policed and it should only be policed it it literally promotes hatred or crime.

maybe not as blunt words, but I pretty much agree with this...

OP it probably doesn't help your case when your sporting a white knight avatar.


but really, is there any piece of art/media/entertainment that doesn't have some form of "ist" or "ism" about it, even if it's just a little bit? (don't be snarky and take that literally, I'm just saying generally speaking.)

Hell I love the movie crash, easily one of my favorite movies, but that movie is loaded with racism/sexism, and I wouldn't change a bit about it, because that's what they wanted to make.

Not every piece of media needs to be critiqued one way or the other to be policed or have it changed, I'm not saying don't have an opinion either, but I swear I can smell bra's burning and hear 2nd wave feminists screaming at the top of their lungs about porn and sex workers, and it gets a bit old hearing the same song and dance every single time something comes out, pick your battles a bit better or learn to not get your jimmies rustled over the tiniest details, otherwise I honestly don't see how you handle day to day life, your head would explode with the amount of different people I deal with on a daily basis.

all that said, hope you end up doing better in the coming days OP.

 

[cleric of the order]

Some people act like I get some kind of thrill out of seeing sexism in gaming. I don't. I hate it. I hate seeing these problems everywhere. I hate games I love grinding to a halt because the alarms in my head are going off. I hate not being able to enjoy the brilliant atmosphere of Metro Last Light as much as I could because there's a little voice in the back of my head reminding me all the female characters are prostitutes, caretakers or victims. I hate the fact that even though Persona 4 has some of the best female characters I've ever seen it still delves into bullshit by having it being understandable when Naoto is afraid because "She's a girl". I hate that Fire Emblem Awakening has a beautifully written mother-daughter relationship that is marred by the fact that there's a female exclusive class called the bride and that sexual assault is apparently funny when a woman does it to a man.

It makes me want to crawl into a crack and cry myself to sleep. In fact I've been doing a fair bit of crying tonight because of it. I just...I just want to sit down and be able to enjoy something without having the part of me that cares noticing another stupid flaw in an otherwise brilliant work. It tears me apart and it just makes me want to scream "CAN SOMEONE JUST FUCKING GET IT RIGHT ALREADY!?" It's just these little moments in otherwise great games, games that I love, that make me just want to scream "WHY!?"

I'm sorry if I'm rambling a bit. But I've seen more than one person say that people keep calling games sexist because it lets me feel self righteous. That's not true. It just isn't. Sometimes I wish I could just turn it all off and not care...but I just can't.

I love games. And it makes me want to cry when they fall short like this. They could be so much more...but they keep tripping. Please. Someone out there. Please get it right. I'm tired of cross examining every single game a play for stupid STUPID mistakes. They just bring the experience down.

I just wanted to share why I keep talking about sexism in gaming. Because I want games to improve so I can just lie down and breathe easy. So I don't have to worry about bullshit around every corner.

In metro U w0t m8
Okay look, survival is key in metro man, you need to be able to survive ass species. having women relegated to those roles keep them alive or more so then the men in the wilderness and also makes sure we can produce more children. I think it's like Dr strangelove's ending. There is a reason for the predominantly female population. You need more women then you do men.

I thought Naoto was a trans woman but I've went to delve into it a bit more and I'd say man I understand how she feels.

Hate fire emblem awaking because it was the worse written game in the series, simply put. the bride is cringe worthy japan stuff. I eman seriously do I have sit here with Rekka no ken waving around Nergal as one of hte best written villians (assuming you get the full ending in hector mode).

Man this makes me feel jaded, well that is what i am biologically (mindblindness and the like) but that's not withstanding. Simply Feeling bad is bad but it isn't a reason to change something, everyone has a point of view brings something to the table I'll admit I cringe when something as stupid as the other things come up but i have to ask you how sensitive do you have to be to let these things cut you that deep?

Personally i suggest some buddhist tales and some time to fit back into preservative. Simply there are many things wrong in this world, all orchestrated by people thinking they are in the right. Just calm down and view the world with empathy for the people that do like this sort of thing. Not all of us want to talk about how sexism is an apparent epidemic and certainly not as militantly as it Antia and her like go one about. Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek .
There is hope and there is change you must be able to keep a stiff upper lip. Let me say that i fear more then all things that this focus on sexism in everything is going to ruin writing. In that it will produce bad writing to force it's way ahead and nothing is worse then a poorly written character or world. I fear that in order to makes sure everyone is represented everything will be stereotyped. And I fear that a lot of this is hogwash made by people reaching for it.
But that is only me, so if you want to talk about how both genders/sexes or all races are relevant, I'm with you, just don't be a zealot. There is a time and a place for it, not everywhere all the time.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

I dunno....constantly being reminded sexism exists through our media kind of makes me depressed now and again

The fact that sexism exists through most of the world in real life should be 1000x more depressing, but people value things differently I guess.

 

[Vault101]

The fact that sexism exists through most of the world in real life should be 1000x more depressing, but people value things differently I guess.

ones just a symptom of the other

Not all of us want to talk about how sexism is an apparent epidemic and certainly not as militantly as it Antia and her like go one about.

Anita?...militant? oh for fucks sake

[quote/] Let me say that i fear more then all things that this focus on sexism in everything is going to ruin writing. In that it will produce bad writing to force it's way ahead and nothing is worse then a poorly written character or world. I fear that in order to makes sure everyone is represented everything will be stereotyped. And I fear that a lot of this is hogwash made by people reaching for it.
[/quote]

this is stupid...this that I come across all the damn time


no really I'm sorry if I'm coming across as harsh but it baffles me time and time again that people come up with this...hooooooowwww is do bad writing being a little inclusive go hand in hand? that's not even going into the issues in how lack of effort and a serious aversion to anything remotely different (or interesting) promotes bad everthing....we KNOW this...we SEE this yet no one seems to give a shit

but talk about diversity its a pat on the head and condescending speech about how things "must absolutely be perfect to a hypothetical standard "I" the majority have decided [footnote/]which doesn't actually matter cause I'm just crusading for muh gamez dude[/footnote] otherwise its better not to have anyone different at all...cause you don't matter...or exist...or I don't know ARTISTIC INTEGRITY! ARTISTIC INTGRIY MARKET! MARKET CAPITALISM!

 

[endtherapture]

Using an enslaved woman as a prostitute is just saying..."wow look how barbaric and bad this is, beter be afriad of this dangerous uncivilised world".

I actually have an issue with this

I don't think we actually need to keep doing it, its just a (somewhat) lazy short-hard I don't think "its realism" is always an excuse, it perpetuates the idea of woman as victims, as objects, as motivators

and you know reality or not its not one I want to be reminded of constantly

Last Of Us (if I recall) didn't have copious amounts of rape or forced enslavement and it didn't feel nutered because of that, even Fallout while it has slaves and deals with rape and such and even corruption within the sex "industry" its not constantly pushed in your face

Having the bad guys kill innocents is also a short hand. Having the bad guys kill children or animals would also be a short cut.

If you don't want to play a game about a gritty post-apocalypse, featuring issues like violence, fighting over resources, prostitution, etc. don't play games about gritty post-apocalypse scenarios, and just go and play The Sims or something.

 

[Vault101]

Having the bad guys kill innocents is also a short hand. Having the bad guys kill children or animals would also be a short cut.

yes but my point is that maybe we should think [I/]why[/I] we put things in and is it really necessary? no need to defend cliché/bad writing practices

[quote/]If you don't want to play a game about a gritty post-apocalypse, featuring issues like violence, fighting over resources, prostitution, etc. don't play games about gritty post-apocalypse scenarios, and just go and play The Sims or something.[/quote]
this is really beside the point

 

[Dragonlayer]

The only thing I would say is sexist about Metro: Last Light is that Artoym and Anna play out a rather cliched romance, which pretty much comes out of nowhere and involves a pointless sex scene as if ticking off boxes on some imagined checklist of "Generic action adventure tropes". Other then that, she is portrayed as a highly competent sniper who practically escorts Artyom to the surface and escapes after he gets captured by Reich Stalkers. Thus, I would argue that Metro is not inherently sexist but portrays sexist societies, which is what you'd expect for underground post-apocalyptic Russia.

As for your frustrations your grace, I recommend sitting back, taking a deep breath and plot the murder of male game developers relax while reading the following inspirational captcha: "you rock!"