Some people think I like calling games sexist. This just isn't true.

[Erttheking]

I think i've heard everything you have to say before from so many other people that you can't possibly be doing more than parroting the populist line without ever engaging your brain. It amazes me that you suddenly hate games you think are good because someone told you they are sexist, even though they probably aren't. The sexual assault feature is obviously a parody. Metro is set after a massive fall of humanity where women would more than likely be slaves not prostitutes. You seem to be confusing sexism and sexualisation. Hrmmm, could be something to do with computer games being pure fiction, even when based on real events.

Go have a cold shower, think for yourself and you will find that these issues that are bothering you enough to whine like a child are really nothing compared to the issues that real people in the real world experience on an everyday level. Go spend some time in liberia or look at the devestation in syria or palestine...you'll soon find a cause worthy of your emotional angst.

I don't hate them. I still love them. It just frustrates me to no ends that there are these stupid stupid STUPID elements that are holding them back. And I suffer from depression and last night, when I wrote this thread, everything had just built up. Little elements here and there that weren't enough to bother me on their own just all piled up and...it got to be too much.

Appeal to worse problems fallacy. And I would appreciate if you didn't call me a child, thank you very much. A little respect would be nice.

Maybe stop playing the depression card then...you aren't the only one with scars on their wrist and a daily desire to be dead. Wield your mind like a weapon not your weaknesses like a shield and maybe you can find a way to understand what has lead you to where you are. Maybe then you wont get worked up over trivial things like sexualised characters within a fictional setting.

I'm trying to be harsh but fair...only 1 of those was taught to me as a child

I'm not trying to earn sympathy. I just want to explain where I'm coming from. If people want to criticize my point, then fine. But when people start freaking mocking me for my emotional insecurities...what am I supposed to say?

Also can I ask you a favor? If you want me to not play the depression card, can you please not play the "Why do you hate games" card.

It's not so much getting worked up over one trivial thing, so much as a bunch of little trivial things all hitting me at once.

 

[Erttheking]

....I'm so happy that you find my emotional turmoil to be FUNNY. For the record, I get upset over stupid shit. I have depression and I'm on pills to help deal with it, so I would appreciate it if you didn't LAUGH at me THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Because guess what? THAT MAKES IT WORSE!

Did I ever say they have it out for me? Where did I say that? I said that developers made stupid mistakes. Over and over and over again.

Where did I say that? Where!? If you going to criticize my argument, can you please take the time to analyze it properly?

Are you trolling lol? You've got to be trolling, seriously if you're this emotional over the name of a class in an RPG I seriously urge you to seek medical help if you haven't already because this could be impacting on your health seriously.

Is a little respect too much to ask for? Drop the lols. And no I am not emotional simply because there's a bride class in Fire Emblem, if you had simply bothered to read my posts you would have known that, I'm emotional because I was in an emotionally fragile position last night, my mind went into overdrive and I was getting insecure about everything and a thousand little insecurities all hit me at once. I'm more calm now because every month or two I just need to let it all out and then I feel better.

And please don't tell me to seek medical help when you can't show the slightest bit of respect for what I'm going through. It makes what could be genuine advice seem like an insult.

 

[endtherapture]

Is a little respect too much to ask for? Drop the lols. And no I am not emotional simply because there's a bride class in Fire Emblem, if you had simply bothered to read my posts you would have known that, I'm emotional because I was in an emotionally fragile position last night, my mind went into overdrive and I was getting insecure about everything and a thousand little insecurities all hit me at once. I'm more calm now because every month or two I just need to let it all out and then I feel better.

And please don't tell me to seek medical help when you can't show the slightest bit of respect for what I'm going through. It makes what could be genuine advice seem like an insult.

Jesuuuuuuuuus.

Seriously get a grip. When I feel emotionally fragile I listen to Taylor Swift and shed a tear. I don't get upset that the Knight class in Dark Souls wasn't called the Paladin.

Like any of the two things you mentioned was sexist anyway. This has got to be a parody thread.

 

[Erttheking]

Is a little respect too much to ask for? Drop the lols. And no I am not emotional simply because there's a bride class in Fire Emblem, if you had simply bothered to read my posts you would have known that, I'm emotional because I was in an emotionally fragile position last night, my mind went into overdrive and I was getting insecure about everything and a thousand little insecurities all hit me at once. I'm more calm now because every month or two I just need to let it all out and then I feel better.

And please don't tell me to seek medical help when you can't show the slightest bit of respect for what I'm going through. It makes what could be genuine advice seem like an insult.

Jesuuuuuuuuus.

Seriously get a grip. When I feel emotionally fragile I listen to Taylor Swift and shed a tear. I don't get upset that the Knight class in Dark Souls wasn't called the Paladin.

Like any of the two things you mentioned was sexist anyway. This has got to be a parody thread.

...Yeah. You're still misinterpreting my arguments. You're still not showing any respect to me. You're still mocking me.

I don't think you and I have anything more to discuss.

 

[Fox12]

erthking?

erthking wut u doin?

ERTHKING STAHP!!!

I get it, I really do, people get it in their heads that being aware and vocal about thease things means "we" sit around raging all the time unable to enjoy anything, which is completely untrue...in fact it could almost be the opposite

but I don't think you're going to be changing anyone's minds, not like this

To be honest it's not really about changing anyone's mind. I just need to vent out all my frustrations before I fucking explode.

To be honest, I'm actually the opposite. I'm rather optimistic because things seem to be changing for the better in a very dynamic way. Compare this to comic books, where sexism has won, and the fans have effectively chased off all the people who tried to improve it in the 80s (I'm not saying all comic readers are sexist). All the progressives that enjoy comics seem to have given up. That isn't happening with games. If there's a lot of argument then that only means that people still care enough about our favorite hobby to think its worth improving. And it's working. Sure, Elizabeth got moved to the back of the game cover because she's a woman, but you know what? When marketing tried to pull that crap on Naughty Dog they promptly made ellie the center of attention on the cover. They still made money, and I can promise people took notice. Compare games now to 15 years ago, when we weren't even having this debate. Things have definitely gotten better, and they'll keep getting better. Don't let it get you down though, and don't let it hurt your love of great titles like fire emblem. Acknowledge their short comings and voice some fair criticism, that's how things continue to improve.

 

[Erttheking]

erthking?

erthking wut u doin?

ERTHKING STAHP!!!

I get it, I really do, people get it in their heads that being aware and vocal about thease things means "we" sit around raging all the time unable to enjoy anything, which is completely untrue...in fact it could almost be the opposite

but I don't think you're going to be changing anyone's minds, not like this

To be honest it's not really about changing anyone's mind. I just need to vent out all my frustrations before I fucking explode.

To be honest, I'm actually the opposite. I'm rather optimistic because things seem to be changing for the better in a very dynamic way. Compare this to comic books, where sexism has won, and the fans have effectively chased off all the people who tried to improve it in the 80s (I'm not saying all comic readers are sexist). All the progressives that enjoy comics seem to have given up. That isn't happening with games. If there's a lot of argument then that only means that people still care enough about our favorite hobby to think its worth improving. And it's working. Sure, Elizabeth got moved to the back of the game cover because she's a woman, but you know what? When marketing tried to pull that crap on Naughty Dog they promptly made her the center of attention on the cover. They still made money, and I can promise people took notice. Compare games now to 15 years ago, when we weren't even having this debate. Things have definitely gotten better, and they'll keep getting better. Don't let it get you down though, and don't let it hurt your love of great titles like fire emblem. Acknowledge their short comings and voice some fair criticism, that's how things continue to improve.

I still love Fire Emblem. And I agree things are better than they used to be. It's just...sometimes I get in a bad place. Sometimes everything just gets to me at once. Insecurities about my social life, insecurities about writing in gaming, insecurities about my personal writing...sometimes it's just a flood gate that comes bursting through all at once. At the end of the day I'll still love Fire Emblem, thinking that it has great characters. I can normally enjoy a game despite it's shortcomings, but it gets really depressing, at least for me, when you can sit down and think about how many games you can say "This game is awesome" and then follow it up with "Despite". When you're in a bad place like I was it's...really easy to forget the good and focus entirely on the bad. I just want to have to stop worrying about this. If only for a little while. If only for my mental health.

 

[Irick]

Honestly, I've been milling over how to respond to this since you first posted it. I'm trying to think of the most respectful way to comment on it.

Alright. So. Here is how I see it.
Crying foul of sexism is a valid form of critisism, but critisism can only ever comment on your personal experience.
Calling a game sexist isn't critisism to me, it's an assertion. It's like me saying that a game is bad. In any case, the game requires player interaction and interpretation.

I do empathise for your being offended, but, I don't abide by the implications of your outcry for less sexism. I don't see games as a thing to be consumed. I like the idea of your critisism of sexism being considered by developers if it resonates, but I don't like the idea of any portrayal becoming taboo or forbidden.

I want challenging games. I don't want peope de-facto banning say, a rape motif and thereby deprive gaming of A Clockwork Orange. So...

I'm sad for you. If you can't find games that you enjoy that give you something more positive, i'm sad for you. But I can not agree with the sentiment that portraying sexism in games is wrong.

In all reality, I see gaming growing to be more inclusive. There are games that pander to every taste out there. We are seeing a desktop publishing revolution with the development of easier and easier tools.

 

[endtherapture]

...Yeah. You're still misinterpreting my arguments. You're still not showing any respect to me. You're still mocking me.

I don't think you and I have anything more to discuss.

There wasn't anything to discuss anyway. Post this on your blog or something, there's no discussion value because there's nothing to debate, it'sjust you stating your opinion, trying to justify how much you whine over minor things and then demanding respect when people call your bluff.

 

[Arina Love]

and here i'am not giving a damn ether way playing Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus enjoying jiggly boobies. Seriously guys you all need to relax

 

[Erttheking]

Honestly, I've been milling over how to respond to this since you first posted it. I'm trying to think of the most respectful way to comment on it.

Alright. So. Here is how I see it.
Crying foul of sexism is a valid form of critisism, but critisism can only ever comment on your personal experience.
Calling a game sexist isn't critisism to me, it's an assertion. It's like me saying that a game is bad. In any case, the game requires player interaction and interpretation.

I do empathise for your being offended, but, I don't abide by the implications of your outcry for less sexism. I don't see games as a thing to be consumed. I like the idea of your critisism of sexism being considered by developers if it resonates, but I don't like the idea of any portrayal becoming taboo or forbidden.

I want challenging games. I don't want peope de-facto banning say, a rape motif and thereby deprive gaming of A Clockwork Orange. So...

I'm sad for you. If you can't find games that you enjoy that give you something more positive, i'm sad for you. But I can not agree with the sentiment that portraying sexism in games is wrong.

In all reality, I see gaming growing to be more inclusive. There are games that pander to every taste out there. We are seeing a desktop publishing revolution with the development of easier and easier tools.

I'm not advocating against the portrayl of sexism in gaming. I'm arguing against games including sexist elements without properly exploring it, or even worse, portraying it in a positive manner. That's all. I will never advocate for anything to become taboo (Except maybe a pro-NAMBLA game)

 

[grassgremlin]

. . . should one game be made to make everyone happy?


My biggest worry about these conversations of sexism, isn't whether or not we get more diverse games. I'm all for it. No, my biggest worry is that people will want all games to have a puritan mentality.

I fear the death of sex-positivity in order to not appear "sexist."

Here's my remedy for all this. I want more sexy male characters. As a future game creator, that's something I'm gonna be doing. And if I can even out the playing field then we wouldn't be constantly having these conversations.

 

[Dragonmouth]

. . . should one game be made to make everyone happy?


My biggest worry about these conversations of sexism, isn't whether or not we get more diverse games. I'm all for it. No, my biggest worry is that people will want all games to have a puritan mentality.

I fear the death of sex-positivity in order to not appear "sexist."

Here's my remedy for all this. I want more sexy male characters. As a future game creator, that's something I'm gonna be doing. And if I can even out the playing field then we wouldn't be constantly having these conversations.

I don't equate scantily clad or sexualized with sex-positive so I don't think I've ever seen a truly sex-positive game. If a game wants to be sex positive, show the hero or heroine actually having sex, not just walking around in unrealistically skimpy outfits, and do it in a PG way. This would show the character having sex for their own pleasure, not the player's.

 

[Irick]

I'm not advocating against the portrayl of sexism in gaming. I'm arguing against games including sexist elements without properly exploring it, or even worse, portraying it in a positive manner. That's all. I will never advocate for anything to become taboo (Except maybe a pro-NAMBLA game)

What is properly exploring it?
Who gets to have their viewpoint defined as proper?

Even by not including the context or commentary and leaving the player to develop their own, that game still sparks meaningful discussion on the topic for those who are involved... to me, you being offended is actually a good thing because it makes you more likely to speak on the subject.

Art has a large role in society to spark discussion and debate. You don't necessarily need to agree with the interpretation of the art to gain value from it. Even though I don't agree with you, I still think that you stating your opinion is valuable. This discussion, the prior discussion, everything. It's valuable, it's how we build our culture.

So... I'm not criticizing you for being offended. I'm not really even critizising anything. I agree personally that sexism in games can throw you for a loop. I don't really like it when a writer portrays a character in an inconsistent manor I just...

I want there to be room for someone to express unpopular opinions. It might even be good for someone to play through the games you get offended by, keeping in mind your critisism in order to put them in your shoes. I mean, we can use even the 'bad' games to further our cultural understanding.

 

[Erttheking]

Ert, since I'm sure you're going to get a lot of shit for making this thread, let me say this - thank you. You and I do not really agree on this issue, that much is clear. As much as you probably detest the side I'm on, and as much as I occasionally resent yours, stuff like this is needed. I can't help but think these debates would be so much smoother if, instead of name-calling and finger-pointing, we all just listened to what the other side wants, why it wants that, what makes them fight for it. We don't have to agree - I don't agree with you - but we need to know where someone's coming from. Everyone really needs to stop dismissing the thoughts of others, regardless of where they stand, without at least getting to know why those thoughts are there.

As a show of good faith, let me explain why I don't side with you - I'm a writer. Nothing big time, not even really published, I mostly just write up short projects and post them to tumblr, or deviantart, or maybe I just share them among friends to get feedback. I hope to "move up" one day, but not yet. I still want to practice, and learn, and perfect my work.

As a writer, I like to think that I put a lot of effort into my stories, and especially my characters. As pathetic as this might sound, I've always sort of used them to stave off loneliness. I'm a bit anti-social and awkward, and I guess that crafting these characters and their lives has... I don't know, provided that connection that eludes me when it comes to others. To be frank, I care about many of these mere figments of my imagination more than I care about many of the people I know in real life. Maybe that sounds psychotic, or just plain sad, I don't know, but there it is.

Whenever I post a new story, I always do so in the hope that I'll find someone who cares about these guys as much as me. And occasionally I do, but in the past few months or years, I've begun seeing... other comments, especially on Tumblr. Comments deriding my stories as "more shit about a straight white guy," or "why couldn't you make the lead a lesbian? Who cares about her stupid love interest, she should've gotten with her lady friend." Just... the outright dismissal of these characters, these people that I have spent weeks, months, sometimes even years putting time and effort and love into, all because of the color of their skin, or the targets of their sexuality. As someone who is severely lacking in maternal instincts, these characters may very well be the closest I'll ever get to having children, and to have them brushed aside because of something so arbitrary...

Why should I try? Why should I even bother? All this effort I put into, into becoming a good writer, into making great stories, into perfecting these characters, who are so unspeakably important to me - why bother with any of it? I could write Twilight with black lesbians and the grammar of a kindergartner and still get praised for being "progressive."

It doesn't make me feel awesome to be a woman, when I see someone beat down another work for the crime of having a male protagonist. It scares me. It fucking terrifies me, of what professionals have to put up with, of what I have to put up with now, as some no-name fanfic writer with an audience that barely measures in triple digits. I don't want that, to have any actual passion and effort be made worthless in the face of so-called "equality." And yet, that's what I see happening. Hell, someone in this very thread stated diversity will solve the stagnation of the industry, as though something as arbitrary as sex or skin color automatically makes your work fresh. It doesn't.

So, there's where I stand, and why. I don't want to debate your reasons, nor am I really interested in anyone who wants to debate mine. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of debating. I just... I wish we would stop all the arguments and just listen to each other.

/wall of text

Dude...trust me. I know 110% where you're coming from. I'm kind of a lonely person too and I find comfort in writing. I have characters that I have poured my heart and soul into. I care about them, dear GOD do I care about them. It's gotten to the points where I've even started to feel like they were more or less my children. I mean I breathed life into them, crafted the fine details of my life. How could I NOT feel connected to them.

And let me tell you this. Anyone who criticizes your characters for being white when they have no justification other than "why not?" They can get fucked.

That's not to say you should tune out all criticism about your characters when it comes to their race and gender (Trust me, I know that it can hurt like hell, but you need to do it sometimes) you just need to know when criticism is worth something and when it's a load of garbage. For example, I have a good female friend who likes my stories a lot. She also likes a lot of my female characters, but she did have one criticism. She said that all of my female characters acted masculine, not that they were badly written or that they were guys with boobs (She even liked how one character had her masculinity be part of her character arc) but she showed concern that I was falling into a rut. Just doing the same thing over and over again.

So I decided to make one of my characters more feminine. I didn't completely alter her personality, but I made minor tweaks to her, gave her new interests and minor behavior quirks. And you know what? I feel like she grew as a result because to be perfectly honest she was already kind of goofy and these new laid back traits I gave her...they fit. I feel like she became more of a person and that I grew as a writer.

So yeah. Feel free to brush off people who demand you need a quota of women, PoC and LGBT characters. Write those characters when they come from the heart, because only then are they worth anything. You should still experiment though, try new things to let your writing style grows. Even if it's just in cheap little one-shots. And you should always take constructive criticism and, while you shouldn't obey it like the gospel, you should at the very least think it over.

 

[Gamer87]

Ert, I jut wanted to say I absolutely understand and feel the same way.

I want to love games, I want them to be good and I don't want to feel disappointed, offended and excluded from them. But sometimes I do and I try to shrug it off because it's a good game in other aspects, and then it keeps hurting me.

And sometimes I'm afraid of pointing things out that are unfair or offensive because some people will think I'm just doing it because I hate the game or hate men or just want attention. This is not the case.

I' a gamer. I want to love games and not be offended by them, is that too much to ask?

 

[grassgremlin]

. . . should one game be made to make everyone happy?


My biggest worry about these conversations of sexism, isn't whether or not we get more diverse games. I'm all for it. No, my biggest worry is that people will want all games to have a puritan mentality.

I fear the death of sex-positivity in order to not appear "sexist."

Here's my remedy for all this. I want more sexy male characters. As a future game creator, that's something I'm gonna be doing. And if I can even out the playing field then we wouldn't be constantly having these conversations.

I don't equate scantily clad or sexualized with sex-positive so I don't think I've ever seen a truly sex-positive game. If a game wants to be sex positive, show the hero or heroine actually having sex, not just walking around in unrealistically skimpy outfits, and do it in a PG way. This would show the character having sex for their own pleasure, not the player's.

I'm referring to games flaunting sexuality. Sorry, but I don't think you have to actually have sex to be sex-positive. There's no way to explore sex in a PG, because it's a dirty, raunchy kinky experience. I have no idea where people get this idea. It's why I know for a fact, other then it's terrible plot, 50 Shades of Grey will never be a good film. The book is porn after all.

People really don't understand sexuality if they're saying, the characters must have sex to have sexual agency. As if flaunting your sexy is such a terrible terrible thing. Society locks us in a box where we can't be who we are and can't open ourselves to the world, why not play something that let's us do that without all the stigma.

It's a fantasy world and I play games to leave reality. So yes, I'm totally drawing guys in unrealistically skimpy outfits because it's liberating fun escapism.

Also, I'm sick of this "for the player" thing. I play characters to be the character. I never once played a character to perform for me. I was Samus, I was Link, I was Sonic. They don't "perform for me." I'm seriously sick of that entire concept. That's honestly what's holding games back.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm not advocating against the portrayl of sexism in gaming. I'm arguing against games including sexist elements without properly exploring it, or even worse, portraying it in a positive manner. That's all. I will never advocate for anything to become taboo (Except maybe a pro-NAMBLA game)

What is properly exploring it?
Who gets to have their viewpoint defined as proper?

Even by not including the context or commentary and leaving the player to develop their own, that game still sparks meaningful discussion on the topic for those who are involved... to me, you being offended is actually a good thing because it makes you more likely to speak on the subject.

Art has a large role in society to spark discussion and debate. You don't necessarily need to agree with the interpretation of the art to gain value from it. Even though I don't agree with you, I still think that you stating your opinion is valuable. This discussion, the prior discussion, everything. It's valuable, it's how we build our culture.

So... I'm not criticizing you for being offended. I'm not really even critizising anything. I agree personally that sexism in games can throw you for a loop. I don't really like it when a writer portrays a character in an inconsistent manor I just...

I want there to be room for someone to express unpopular opinions. It might even be good for someone to play through the games you get offended by, keeping in mind your critisism in order to put them in your shoes. I mean, we can use even the 'bad' games to further our cultural understanding.

Anything other than just showing it and having it be portrayed as perfectly acceptable. I will take literally anything else.

I never said anything about proper viewpoints. There is no proper viewpoint.

Well fair enough. I just wish that there were a few alternatives out there.

This is true.

Well...there should be. I agree Still, some opinions are unpopular for reasons. But I respect that some people have unpopular viewpoints. All I ask is that if someone shows an unpopular viewpoint, there's thought behind it and that it's well built. Not that it's the result of laziness and taking shortcuts in writing.

 

[prpshrt]

The whole sexism/feminism thing can go straight to hell. I honestly don't see why its bad to develop a particular for one demographic. Japan seems to be doing that with its comics, shows, and games and their society doesn't seem to be imploding.

Captcha: Join the millions. I have a feeling its telling me that I'm not on my own in thinking this way

 

[Erttheking]

. . . should one game be made to make everyone happy?


My biggest worry about these conversations of sexism, isn't whether or not we get more diverse games. I'm all for it. No, my biggest worry is that people will want all games to have a puritan mentality.

I fear the death of sex-positivity in order to not appear "sexist."

Here's my remedy for all this. I want more sexy male characters. As a future game creator, that's something I'm gonna be doing. And if I can even out the playing field then we wouldn't be constantly having these conversations.

No! No no no no no! That is the last thing that I want! I love sex positivity. My frustration is not showing that women enjoy sex, just writers falling into sterotypes and pandering when it's at the sake of the story and tone.

And more sexy male characters? Yes please! Why can't we get more characters like the Pillar Men from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure

http://38.media.tumblr.com/57565e3ae9144dc0eefa44210bc5e257/tumblr_nbig47BgAm1s755fuo1_500.png

 

[Something Amyss]

My biggest worry about these conversations of sexism, isn't whether or not we get more diverse games. I'm all for it. No, my biggest worry is that people will want all games to have a puritan mentality.

Your biggest concern is something which virtually nobody has ever stated or desired?

Do you find this to be a particularly reasonable or warranted fear?