Some people think I like calling games sexist. This just isn't true.

[FieryTrainwreck]

The fact that your precious medium is stagnating like hell isn't helped by people like you pissing and howling every time someone wants to get it moving again.

"Your precious medium"? This is a video game forum. If video games aren't "your medium", why are you here? To stir shit up, I'd guess.

If video games are stagnant, you know what's to blame? A complete lack of innovation in user input and display devices. The "next step" in gaming isn't cramming a bunch of cliched social justice pandering into every melodramatic narrative. The "next big thing" is oculus rift. Or a Kinect that doesn't suck. Or voice recognition and speech AI. Or radically improved behavior AI. The nuts and bolts of these experiences, the things that actually separate video games from movies and books, are what truly matter. The themes and subject matter? You can find them everywhere - including in gaming if you're willing to look beyond AAA development.

Edit: and by the by, there will never come a day when there are no more "offensive portrayals of x" in this or any other media - nor should there. If you don't like them, don't support them. But crying because "the bad games" won't go away, when a bunch of people have zero problems with those games and actually enjoy them immensely? Those are crocodile tears, my friend.

I can't say this thread is doing much to dissuade me that a lot of anti-GGers are basically the latest in a long line of moral police trying to control the content of this and every other industry. When your dollars aren't enough to influence the market, take over their media and control the message. When that doesn't work? Guess it's time to cry and hope the mean rationalist relent and capitulate.

 

[endtherapture]

Well said, ert. The reason I talk about bad portrayal and inclusions in gaming, and the occasional overt sexism, isn't because I love being offended, but because I love games and keep seeing them do stupid things. Keep fighting the good fight.

"Fighting the good fight"? What does that even mean? What fight? What enemies?

The Patriarchy silly. The Patriarchy is controlling the games industry to oppress women. It's so obvious I don't know why you can't see it mate.

 

[softclocks]

It's not a long way off, it's impossible. I'm not saying that to be pessimistic, things are getting better and are better then they where in the past, but true equality for all if just impossible. That's not to say we should try to improve things, but there's always going to be something out there that needs improving, at let's face it the precieved problems of the video game medium are pretty low on the list of "issues which need addressing" even in the most egalitarian societies.

Indeed, I'm not even sure it's something that I would want.

Equal opportunity sure, but there's going to be an even 50/50 gender split in everything unless its forced.

On topic, this is the nature of the beast. Every story will carry a mark of its creator, there's no way around this. People write what they know.

 

[lord canti]

Can you really call those things sexist though when a lot of it makes sense given the context of the story,world, and characters?. Look I know what you're trying to say, I'm pissed that the new fatal frame has jiggle physics in it. I hate the fact that the man who made the boss also made quiet. But I dont turn myself into an emotional wreck because these little things are in other wise great games.

Edit: I'd also like to ask if Kanji getting made fun of by people for liking feminine things upset you as much as Naoto being afraid because she's a girl did?

 

[AntiChri5]

The Bride class is incredibly easy to ignore. Pretty stupid, yeah, but pretty "off the beaten track" if you catch my drift. What is the mother daughter relationship you are referring to, by the way?

Anyway, to be less nitpicky, i totally get where you are coming from. Some people act like criticism is hatred. That couldn't be further from the truth. If i hate a game, i don't bother critiquing it. I simply ignore it. I critique out of love, man. Because i want the things i love to be better.

 

[Silence]

Can someone get me context on this Persona 4 thing? As a person with social difficulties I would be quite afraid of people like the OP. I would fear that I would do some out-of-place body language and would be judged by that (in extreme cases being accused of trying to threaten her). While that doesn't mean I would fear for my life, it still can be realistic.

While I generally don't fear girls, I see how someone can. And this means, there is nothing sexist about him being afraid of girls.

 

[lord canti]

I'm pissed that the new fatal frame has jiggle physics in it.

Very important disclaimer: I haven't played Fatal Frame (don't even know what it is), but isn't a certain amount of jiggle physics reasonable? Or is it just gratuitous in Fatal Frame?

It's pretty bad giving the setting and tone of the game. One of those a slight step make her chest jiggle like jello.

 

[VanQ]

That's fine. That's how opinions work and it's normal. You're welcome to talk about it too. Just don't be that guy that goes into a self righteous, indignant rant when people say that they disagree. And don't demand that artists change their visions because big tits make you uncomfortable. Just be cool about it.

 

[Saetha]

Ert, since I'm sure you're going to get a lot of shit for making this thread, let me say this - thank you. You and I do not really agree on this issue, that much is clear. As much as you probably detest the side I'm on, and as much as I occasionally resent yours, stuff like this is needed. I can't help but think these debates would be so much smoother if, instead of name-calling and finger-pointing, we all just listened to what the other side wants, why it wants that, what makes them fight for it. We don't have to agree - I don't agree with you - but we need to know where someone's coming from. Everyone really needs to stop dismissing the thoughts of others, regardless of where they stand, without at least getting to know why those thoughts are there.

As a show of good faith, let me explain why I don't side with you - I'm a writer. Nothing big time, not even really published, I mostly just write up short projects and post them to tumblr, or deviantart, or maybe I just share them among friends to get feedback. I hope to "move up" one day, but not yet. I still want to practice, and learn, and perfect my work.

As a writer, I like to think that I put a lot of effort into my stories, and especially my characters. As pathetic as this might sound, I've always sort of used them to stave off loneliness. I'm a bit anti-social and awkward, and I guess that crafting these characters and their lives has... I don't know, provided that connection that eludes me when it comes to others. To be frank, I care about many of these mere figments of my imagination more than I care about many of the people I know in real life. Maybe that sounds psychotic, or just plain sad, I don't know, but there it is.

Whenever I post a new story, I always do so in the hope that I'll find someone who cares about these guys as much as me. And occasionally I do, but in the past few months or years, I've begun seeing... other comments, especially on Tumblr. Comments deriding my stories as "more shit about a straight white guy," or "why couldn't you make the lead a lesbian? Who cares about her stupid love interest, she should've gotten with her lady friend." Just... the outright dismissal of these characters, these people that I have spent weeks, months, sometimes even years putting time and effort and love into, all because of the color of their skin, or the targets of their sexuality. As someone who is severely lacking in maternal instincts, these characters may very well be the closest I'll ever get to having children, and to have them brushed aside because of something so arbitrary...

Why should I try? Why should I even bother? All this effort I put into, into becoming a good writer, into making great stories, into perfecting these characters, who are so unspeakably important to me - why bother with any of it? I could write Twilight with black lesbians and the grammar of a kindergartner and still get praised for being "progressive."

It doesn't make me feel awesome to be a woman, when I see someone beat down another work for the crime of having a male protagonist. It scares me. It fucking terrifies me, of what professionals have to put up with, of what I have to put up with now, as some no-name fanfic writer with an audience that barely measures in triple digits. I don't want that, to have any actual passion and effort be made worthless in the face of so-called "equality." And yet, that's what I see happening. Hell, someone in this very thread stated diversity will solve the stagnation of the industry, as though something as arbitrary as sex or skin color automatically makes your work fresh. It doesn't.

So, there's where I stand, and why. I don't want to debate your reasons, nor am I really interested in anyone who wants to debate mine. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of debating. I just... I wish we would stop all the arguments and just listen to each other.

/wall of text

 

[QuicklyAcross]

That's fine. That's how opinions work and it's normal. You're welcome to talk about it too. Just don't be that guy that goes into a self righteous, indignant rant when people say that they disagree. And don't demand that artists change their visions becausr big tits make you uncomfortable. Just be cool about it.

Its ok to disagree but dont be a dick about it basically.
Present the argument in a reasonable and objective way without the use of misleading, misinformation or other logical fallacies, then we have a discussion.
In any other case then its just shitflinging

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Ert, I'm on your side man, but you really need to take a long break away from the escapist forums and possibly games in general. I see you frequently getting bogged down in huge quote chains where you are banging your head against a wall hoping it will break. That can't be good for you. If these things are getting to you so much, immersing yourself into a maelstrom of discontent will not improve your mood if not actively aggravate it.

Games are ultimately made for the sake of fun... in a nebulous sense of the word. If you're not having fun then the game has failed you. It sounds like you need to find a hobby to get away from your hobby. If games are causing you such distress, then they aren't games anymore. Either narrow what games you play to ones that can't touch on these sore points or do something else with your free time.

Games aren't important. They are a distraction (sames goes for film, music and literature). The sooner people realise this, the quieter things will get around here. They can enrich your life but aren't essential to life. If they are actively impoverishing your life then get the hell away from them... they aren't worth it.

That isn't to say they aren't worth talking about, or issues shouldn't be discussed, but priorities are important. Your mental health is vastly more important then how Women are depicted in fictional media or how "journalism" in a primarily commercial industry isn't up to real journalistic standards (generalizing current trending issues here). You need to come at these with a level head.

Read a book (I recommend "The Name of the Wind" if you haven't read it) or watch a show (I'm currently Watching the entire Stargate series on Netflix). Something, anything other then games. And if your problems persist seek counsel from a professional.

Your mental and emotional health is too important to let it get swept away in a torrent of shit over something ultimately trivial.

 

[IceForce]

I can't say this thread is doing much to dissuade me that a lot of anti-GGers are basically the latest in a long line of moral police

"GamerGate" has basically become the replacement for "Anita Sarkeesian".

Any mention of her name, or (now) GamerGate, pretty much seals the fate of the thread and marks it for death.

 

[lionsprey]

Can someone get me context on this Persona 4 thing? As a person with social difficulties I would be quite afraid of people like the OP. I would fear that I would do some out-of-place body language and would be judged by that (in extreme cases being accused of trying to threaten her). While that doesn't mean I would fear for my life, it still can be realistic.

While I generally don't fear girls, I see how someone can. And this means, there is nothing sexist about him being afraid of girls.

i wonder about this persona 4 thing as well. i cant remember any part in which Naoto is afraid and its stated that its okey because shes a girl.
closest thing i can think of is when they tell her its okey to be a girl

 

[Phasmal]

I tried to reply earlier but the site kind of died for me.

Anyway. I don't think I've ever called a game sexist. Elements of it, yeah, some things devs have done, yup.
But it'd have to be a pretty horrible game for me to dismiss it entirely.

I criticise the things I love. Doesn't mean I love them any less than the next person.

Yeah, some people will think you're doing it because you're an evil feminazi or whatever, but honestly fuck those people.
They're not people you need to care about.

Plus honestly I have more problems with the game community than the game industry at the moment. The industry seems to be just a bit dumb when it comes to these issues, rather than actively hostile.

 

[Buckets]

The games industry has always been predominantly male, despite some made up figures that seem to keep appearing. Men/Boys have always been the target for games since their inception.

When I owned a C64 I recall having a game called Barbarian which had the then popular Maria Whitaker sprawled across the cover/advert. I still bought it (wasn't actually a bad game at the time). The same has been done for generations of games and the target audience is still the same. I for one have little interest in how they choose to sell a product, if a game is well designed with strong characters (whatever race/sex they happen to be) then that is really all I need to see.

Video games are, and always will be an escapist pursuit so throwing real life values into them just takes away the creativity/imagination of the end product, so we end up with dull games with dull protagonists trying desperately not to offend anyone.

 

[Erttheking]

It makes me want to crawl into a crack and cry myself to sleep. In fact I've been doing a fair bit of crying tonight because of it. I just...I just want to sit down and be able to enjoy something without having the part of me that cares noticing another stupid flaw in an otherwise brilliant work. It tears me apart and it just makes me want to scream "CAN SOMEONE JUST FUCKING GET IT RIGHT ALREADY!?" It's just these little moments in otherwise great games, games that I love, that make me just want to scream "WHY!?"

Lol. You really need to get over this and stop being affected by the names of classes in an RPG if you are getting so affected by something that isn't having a direct effect on your life. It's incredibly unhealthy.

Just because there's a class called "bride" in an RPG or that boob jiggle physics exist does not mean that these developers have it out for you.

In addition, the policing of games as having to be entirely politically correct is ruining them as art. There does not need to be a black, an asian, an indian and multiple LGBT characters in games for it to be good. The PC police ir ruining this, art should be policed and it should only be policed it it literally promotes hatred or crime.

....I'm so happy that you find my emotional turmoil to be FUNNY. For the record, I get upset over stupid shit. I have depression and I'm on pills to help deal with it, so I would appreciate it if you didn't LAUGH at me THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Because guess what? THAT MAKES IT WORSE!

Did I ever say they have it out for me? Where did I say that? I said that developers made stupid mistakes. Over and over and over again.

Where did I say that? Where!? If you going to criticize my argument, can you please take the time to analyze it properly?

 

[CannibalCorpses]

I think i've heard everything you have to say before from so many other people that you can't possibly be doing more than parroting the populist line without ever engaging your brain. It amazes me that you suddenly hate games you think are good because someone told you they are sexist, even though they probably aren't. The sexual assault feature is obviously a parody. Metro is set after a massive fall of humanity where women would more than likely be slaves not prostitutes. You seem to be confusing sexism and sexualisation. Hrmmm, could be something to do with computer games being pure fiction, even when based on real events.

Go have a cold shower, think for yourself and you will find that these issues that are bothering you enough to whine like a child are really nothing compared to the issues that real people in the real world experience on an everyday level. Go spend some time in liberia or look at the devestation in syria or palestine...you'll soon find a cause worthy of your emotional angst.

 

[Erttheking]

Can someone get me context on this Persona 4 thing? As a person with social difficulties I would be quite afraid of people like the OP. I would fear that I would do some out-of-place body language and would be judged by that (in extreme cases being accused of trying to threaten her). While that doesn't mean I would fear for my life, it still can be realistic.

While I generally don't fear girls, I see how someone can. And this means, there is nothing sexist about him being afraid of girls.

No that's not what I was talking about. Naoto was a character who was kidnapped and she admitted that despite being a police officer, she was terrified. One of the characters pointed out "Well she's a lot younger than us" which makes perfect sense considering she was only 14, but then fucked it up by adding "Plus she's a girl"