Some thoughts about rape culture, rape humor, and sexual assault in general.

[FieryTrainwreck]

"Being male, I have the luxury of sexual safety by virtue of thousands of years of western conditioning and culture."

I happened upon this quote while trudging through innumerable links (some older) regarding PAX Australia, Dick-wolves, etc. It got me thinking about the true origins and causes of sexual power and dominance in most modern society.

I think, for the most part, this dominance arises from other bases of power - in particular, physical power. Another contributing factor: the fundamental biological differences between the actual sex organs and their roles in the literal act of intercourse.

Anyways, some bullet-point thoughts to keep things relatively short:

- if women were stronger than men, on average, would sexual assault exist with such prevalence?
- in a world where women were stronger than men, if men could participate in sexual acts while unconscious or under severe duress, would they become the targets of sexual assault? would the more "active" participation of men in the reproductive act (penetrative) make them poorer targets for sexual assault? (put aside notions of mutual pleasure here)
- does sexual assault exist in part because women "hold the keys"; by in large, sex is seen as valuable to men and given/enabled by women, so is sex viewed too much in the vein of currency or commodity (and subsequently vulnerable to "taking")?
- are efforts to defeat rape culture severely hampered not by logical or emotional failings but rather by biological/physiological imperatives and differences? is the casualization of rape language and imagery a social construct in truth or just a social framework laid over the physical differences between men and women?

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture. I would never excuse this behavior, nor does attempting to discover reasons for it function as such dismissal. I'm just not sure I believe in rape culture as a purely social construct that can be easily abolished through objective measures of equality. I'm a little worried it might be biologically/physiologically derived, and that the only way to defeat it is through the creation of new social constructs - similar to the way we reduce/remove other primitive features of the species.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

You're probably right. I'm really trying to avoid some of the emotional (and extremely valid) components of this topic and enter into a discussion about the true genesis of rape culture. I think it's a valuable discussion because it's the only way you can really suss out how to abolish or counteract the problem. Is it really about stripping away centers of entrenched power as a means to eradicate the imbalance? Or is it about recognizing the differences between men and women from a raw physiological point of view and enacting special privileges for women as a means to counter the imbalance?

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

As for the second question... As far as I'm concerned, if there are indeed physiological reasons for the prevalence of rape, I don't know that they can be used as an excuse any longer.

Important to reiterate that a reason isn't an excuse.

So for me, it's less about granting women "privileges", as you say, and more about shutting down rapists hard. Make it clear to people that rape is intolerable, that there is no excuse for it, and that it's commission will incur the strictest of penalties.

In short, I think it's mostly about changing attitudes towards rape in general, making it just about the least acceptable thing a person can do. What biological forces are at work can be suppressed, and we should expect people to suppress them. If we can't do it by instilling empathy in others, we can do it by instilling fear of public condemnation and disenfranchisement.

That all makes sense, and I don't have much to add. I think we have a lot of competing impulses, even today, with people insisting upon all of their "freedoms" and the "natural inclinations of man". If "greed is good" and men are continually rewarded and praised for being aggressive and taking what they want, it seems difficult to demonize the sort of "dominance dispositions" that enable rape culture to flourish.

Maybe economic imperatives are the only true solution to this problem, as with most problems. If a comic-con shuts down because enough men and women refuse to participate in a convention without sufficient protections, that should function as a wake-up call. If Daniel Tosh sees his show canceled and his stand-up appearances boycotted, his downfall at the hands of his own insensitivity should serve as a warning to other comedians. The question then becomes: how can persecutors of rape culture obtain sufficient, game-changing influence and wealth? I suppose enough women (and sensible men) in positions of wealth and authority can author a better balanced and safer future. Diligence really is paramount, though.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

Er, yes and no. Any number of people considered (not least by themselves) to be moral and considerate aren't concerned with it.

It's depressingly common for people to rally to defend rapists if they personally know them, or are celebrities, or if they didn't make a signed confession saying they were bad people.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

Er, yes and no. Any number of people considered (not least by themselves) to be moral and considerate aren't concerned with it.

It's depressingly common for people to rally to defend rapists if they personally know them, or are celebrities, or if they didn't make a signed confession saying they were bad people.

And these people are moral and considerate in their own minds and the minds of other incorrect people and nowhere else.

I have to express some frustration here. My sincere attempt to create a disclaimer effectively demonizing sexual assault from the outset of this thread was still apparently ripe for (willful?) misunderstanding. Ugh.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And these people are moral and considerate in their own minds and the minds of other incorrect people and nowhere else.

I have to express some frustration here. My sincere attempt to create a disclaimer effectively demonizing sexual assault from the outset of this thread was still apparently ripe for (willful?) misunderstanding. Ugh.

Well, you seemed to be implying that such attitudes are only held by a small amount of people, which I've not found to be the case. It's very widespread, at least in part because people don't like admitting how widespread it is.

 

[Abomination]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

Er, yes and no. Any number of people considered (not least by themselves) to be moral and considerate aren't concerned with it.

It's depressingly common for people to rally to defend rapists if they personally know them, or are celebrities, or if they didn't make a signed confession saying they were bad people.

Define "depressingly common" because I have seen it in small town communities, such as that passed out girl rising football players rape case... but when someone is found guilty of rape the number of people who condemn them is definitely the significant majority.

There might be a few cases where one believes the definition of rape reached by the jury was not rape but that isn't so much the issue of people "defending" a rapist but rather believe the individual to not be a rapist.


OP: I am 100% behind your idea of taking a pragmatic and practical approach to stripping away the emotional baggage that inevitably weighs down many a discussion about the social effects of rape.

I believe affirmative action on such a scale, giving 50% of the population advantages in some areas to counter "advantages" the other 50% possess in other areas is a foolhardy venture and will earn nothing but ire and scorn. If the primary cause for "rape culture" is attitude then affirmative action will do nothing to improve that - it will more than likely make it worse, especially from the disenfranchised members of the 50% not receiving the affirmative action.

 

[Kopikatsu]

- if women were stronger than men, on average, would sexual assault exist with such prevalence?

Unlikely. Rape is more of a show of power and dominance than the act of sex itself (And I'm talking about actual rape, not 'Oh I got super drunk and have no idea what I'm doing whoops').

- in a world where women were stronger than men, if men could participate in sexual acts while unconscious or under severe duress, would they become the targets of sexual assault? would the more "active" participation of men in the reproductive act (penetrative) make them poorer targets for sexual assault? (put aside notions of mutual pleasure here)

Basically, you're asking if men were women and women were men, would men be raped more? The answer is yes, but I don't see what use the question has.

- does sexual assault exist in part because women "hold the keys"; by in large, sex is seen as valuable to men and given/enabled by women, so is sex viewed too much in the vein of currency or commodity (and subsequently vulnerable to "taking")?

Entirely likely. As rape is about power, taking something that is withheld or forbidden is a showing of dominance. The concept isn't much different from a schoolyard bully beating up someone else for their lunch money. They probably don't need or have a particular use for the money, they just do it to show that they're the boss. Of course, I'd say that seeing sex as something that should be given and taken freely (thus avoiding the issue of rape entirely) is a far unhealthier attitude towards sex in the first place and would likely cause much more problems that it would theoretically solve.

- are efforts to defeat rape culture severely hampered not by logical or emotional failings but rather by biological/physiological imperatives and differences? is the casualization of rape language and imagery a social construct in truth or just a social framework laid over the physical differences between men and women?

The possibility of rape being biologically driven in nature is very high. Many different forms of animals reproduce primarily by/participate in rape. Penguins participate in prostitution, dolphins enjoy a good round of gangrape and cool blooded murder every now and again...

There is nothing that humans do that is unique. Rape, murder, drug abuse, theft, war, inventions...none of them are unique to humans. All acts carry a biological imperative behind them. That simply comes with being an animal, which humans are- mere mammals. Largely a slave to their own innate desires with a noted inability to plan in the long term.

 

[chinangel]

at the risk of sounding ignorant...what is rape cultureÉ

 

[Thaluikhain]

at the risk of sounding ignorant...what is rape cultureÉ

Basically, the social attitudes which lead to a high amount of rape and related things.

To go back a bit, rape isn't something that "just happens", it requires people who believe that it is ok, which requires a rape culture to persuade them it is.

 

[Karelwolfpup]

Do we have a rape culture in the West today?
I thought most rapes were committed by sociopaths and mentally scarred people who do it serially rather as something that just happens generally regardless of whom the person may be or what sex they are.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Oh God this thread will go downhill fast.

To get this in before this thread becomes a fiery mess, I don't think if women were stronger then men there will be a significant onset of female-on-male sexual assault. One of the main reasons women tend to be more cautious about sex is that they can have permanent consequences (pregnancy) while men can pretty much just walk away without any consequences. I don't think that it's a simple "men are stronger" thing (although I assume it does help).

As for the Biological imperative-thing, I do think that there is a biological reason why men want to have sex with many women (to pass on genetic info). And I do think that more proliferate on how intolerable rape is and how (as you said) primitive and disgusting it is should probably be introduced to combat that.

Lastly, I'm not really sure that all rape has to do with morale acceptance of it. I mean, a good portion of it it spur of the moment "crimes of passion" that I don't think can be shut down simply by reminding people how bad it is. I'm not quite sure how we can combat this, but it's something to think about.

 

[Daveman]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

Er, yes and no. Any number of people considered (not least by themselves) to be moral and considerate aren't concerned with it.

It's depressingly common for people to rally to defend rapists if they personally know them, or are celebrities, or if they didn't make a signed confession saying they were bad people.

Maybe it's because many people treat rapists even worse than murderers and even being accused of it is going to cause irreparable damage to their lives. I mean innocent until proven guilty doesn't really enter into most peoples minds when they read "Person X accused of rape" in a newspaper. I don't think people leaping to defend the people they love or admire is really a terrible thing, especially when it can really only be seen as disbelief that that person would commit something so heinous. If your Dad was accused or even convicted, would you really accept that he was a rapist?

 

[Candidus]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

I'd like to ask you a question, OP.

Those men and women who have a rape fetish and consensually simulate the act... who also write fictional stories and illustrate for each other (whether David Cameron likes it or not). I wonder, am I / are they despicable in your view? Morally bankrupt? More likely to actually rape someone than you are?

Do you believe that they are dangerous? Do you believe that their fiction ought to be prohibited? Linking with your question regarding "efforts to defeat rape culture": do you count prejudicial laws passed against fictional depictions based on no conclusive evidence whatsoever linking fiction with incidences of the act among such efforts?

Just curious really.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

Er, yes and no. Any number of people considered (not least by themselves) to be moral and considerate aren't concerned with it.

It's depressingly common for people to rally to defend rapists if they personally know them, or are celebrities, or if they didn't make a signed confession saying they were bad people.

And these people are moral and considerate in their own minds and the minds of other incorrect people and nowhere else.

What with morality being relative and all (your personal religious faith or lack of aside) everyone who considers themselves moral and considerate is wrong to someone. People on the left who support welfare as a program based on morality and consideration are countered by those on the right who see it as an immoral way to keep poor people from ever rising above the grasp of welfare, for example.

It's easy to say that anybody who defends an accused rapist is flat-out wrong on an objective scale, but we don't really have an objective scale to judge on. Our society largely condemns rape, but even within that society there are those who justify it to themselves or quibble over definitions. Not to mention that, while it isn't as prevalent as the MRA warriors would have you believe, there are people who are falsely accused of rape. Is it particularly immoral to assume that someone you love might be one of them?

Do we have a rape culture in the West today?
I thought most rapes were committed by sociopaths and mentally scarred people who do it serially rather as something that just happens generally regardless of whom the person may be or what sex they are.

This is absolutely not correct. Here in the UK, recent TV PSAs have tried to push the message that what you're doing could be rape even if you don't think of it that way. Rape exists, and it's not the sole domain of sociopaths.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Those men and women who have a rape fetish and consensually simulate the act... who also write fictional stories and illustrate for each other (whether David Cameron likes it or not). I wonder, am I / are they despicable in your view? Morally bankrupt? More likely to actually rape someone than you are?

Not actually related, and I'm not the OP, but I did find it amusing in an ironic way (long after the event, obviously- at the time I was just traumatised) that the woman who had me arrested on a false rape accusation was in fact a rape fetishist herself.