Some thoughts about rape culture, rape humor, and sexual assault in general.

[TwiZtah]

Just to say something about the title, namely the "rape humor" part.

Everything should be and can be joked about, otherwise, one cannot look at a subject objectively. By that though, I do not mean that you should go "HAHAHAHA, YOU GOT RAPED!!! xD"

 

[Nieroshai]

You're probably right. I'm really trying to avoid some of the emotional (and extremely valid) components of this topic and enter into a discussion about the true genesis of rape culture. I think it's a valuable discussion because it's the only way you can really suss out how to abolish or counteract the problem. Is it really about stripping away centers of entrenched power as a means to eradicate the imbalance? Or is it about recognizing the differences between men and women from a raw physiological point of view and enacting special privileges for women as a means to counter the imbalance?

You already stirred the pot with "rape culture." Last I checked, rape was both taboo and illegal, and even the accusation of rape could land a man in prison in most western culture. Just to throw it out there. Inequality of the sexes is one debate, "rape culture" is an inflammatory label that is arguably uncalled for and disingenuous. I can debate gender equality with you if you wish, but as the term stands all you come off as is the "angry liberal hippie" stereotype. Even liberals don't want to talk to the angry liberal hippie.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I've never met anyone who thinks that rape is anything less than reprehensible... so where's this rape culture? Is there a rape-illuminati, hiding in the shadows, secretly manipulating world affairs?*

Also, I doubt that rape humour normalises/encourages actual rape, any moreso than dead baby jokes normalise killing actual babies. In fact, the whole point of those kind of things is that they're supposed to be shocking and controversial, not because you're supposed to agree with them.

[sub]
*Disclaimer: I know personal experience is a poor way to judge the bigger picture. But in this case I think most people would reaffirm my experience. Who the hell thinks rape is good?[/sub]

 

[Gauntlets28]

I feel very strongly against rape in general. Sometimes, I feel like killing them, but that would mean killing my uncle, and that would lead to complications. He doesn't know I know, but oh yes I do.-_- But I will likely laugh at a good joke about rape, (a GOOD one, not just a shocking one), although with a fair bit of guilt. But oh well, if you don't laugh, you'll cry, huh?

 

[Thaluikhain]

People go against the grain of society all the time. For example you can say over and over that greed is bad but people will still be greedy, not because they read an Ayn Rand book but because being greedy benefits them in certain cases.

To extend that example, you can certainly say that greed is bad, but then produce endless blather about the lifestyles of the rich and how wonderful they are. I'd say that society isn't telling people that greed is bad there.

 

[Thaluikhain]

People go against the grain of society all the time. For example you can say over and over that greed is bad but people will still be greedy, not because they read an Ayn Rand book but because being greedy benefits them in certain cases.

To extend that example, you can certainly say that greed is bad, but then produce endless blather about the lifestyles of the rich and how wonderful they are. I'd say that society isn't telling people that greed is bad there.

Greed isn't the only way to be rich.

Certainly not, but it's helped any number of people were are supposed to aspire to be like.

Anyway, that particular example aside, just because something is nominally said by society to be a bad thing doesn't mean it's not being encouraged. All sorts of things are affected by culture in different ways, even though the official line remains "don't do that".

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Remember that moral and considerate people despise rape, rape language, and rape culture.

I'd like to ask you a question, OP.

Those men and women who have a rape fetish and consensually simulate the act... who also write fictional stories and illustrate for each other (whether David Cameron likes it or not). I wonder, am I / are they despicable in your view? Morally bankrupt? More likely to actually rape someone than you are?

Do you believe that they are dangerous? Do you believe that their fiction ought to be prohibited? Linking with your question regarding "efforts to defeat rape culture": do you count prejudicial laws passed against fictional depictions based on no conclusive evidence whatsoever linking fiction with incidences of the act among such efforts?

Just curious really.

That's pretty interesting.

I think that fantasy is fantasy, so I classify the vast majority of rape fantasy role play alongside murder fantasy role play (most popular video games). The concepts and simulated actions are exciting and interesting precisely because they are not acceptable in real life. If a person is using rape role play as an outlet for gratification of genuine instincts towards sexual assault, then I'm not sure I view that person as truly moral. Instead, he/she is doing what is necessary to avoid punishment, which probably describes a lot of people - and it's not like these people should be put in jail. I guess I just view "moral" as possessing genuine empathy for other people.

Also, everyone seems to be skipping the "considerate" part of my quote. You can be probably be an overall moral person and use rape language, but you're certainly no longer qualified as considerate. A considerate person would view the prevalence of sexual assault, understand the likely prevalence of past victims in any sizable audience, and appropriately tailor language so as not to drudge up traumatic feelings for others.

You're probably right. I'm really trying to avoid some of the emotional (and extremely valid) components of this topic and enter into a discussion about the true genesis of rape culture. I think it's a valuable discussion because it's the only way you can really suss out how to abolish or counteract the problem. Is it really about stripping away centers of entrenched power as a means to eradicate the imbalance? Or is it about recognizing the differences between men and women from a raw physiological point of view and enacting special privileges for women as a means to counter the imbalance?

You already stirred the pot with "rape culture." Last I checked, rape was both taboo and illegal, and even the accusation of rape could land a man in prison in most western culture. Just to throw it out there. Inequality of the sexes is one debate, "rape culture" is an inflammatory label that is arguably uncalled for and disingenuous. I can debate gender equality with you if you wish, but as the term stands all you come off as is the "angry liberal hippie" stereotype. Even liberals don't want to talk to the angry liberal hippie.

This is saddening.

I work at a business that keeps late-night hours. We strongly encourage all female employees to request someone walk them to their cars after dark. We do this because sexual assault is a very real issue that continually impacts the lives of women in this and most other countries. Based on the stats, anyone who disagrees with this sentiment is merely lucky - lucky to have not experienced sexual assault personally or through close friends/family.

How can this be such a pervasive part of our day-to-day lives without also becoming a part of our culture? How can we, and many other businesses, draw such an obvious line between genders while other people continue to dismiss the notion outright? It's a disconnect I can't fathom, and not for lack of trying.

Anyways, your rejection of the label, and your immediate deployment of pre-loaded insults, paints you as someone who thinks he somehow owns, authored, or was otherwise responsible for this culture. Just because you're a man doesn't mean it's your fault. When I say we live in a "rape culture", 'm not accusing you, personally, of anything. No need to be defensive. Rape doesn't necessarily define the culture either (I'd say runaway capitalism currently does that, but huge digression). It's just a bad feature with tricky origins that needs to be challenged by discussion and counteracting social constructs.

 

[mrhateful]

Humor is a tool used by humans to convey stuff that might otherwise be hard to express. I am of the opinion that nothing is too sacred to joke about. That said there is also something called bad taste, in that joking about something people have recently been traumatized by is not kind. So that means joking about an individual case of rape that recently occurred is not acceptable conduct. While joking about the concept of rape would indeed be acceptable as rape is as old as the human race itself.

 

[Smeatza]

I work at a business that keeps late-night hours. We strongly encourage all female employees to request someone walk them to their cars after dark. We do this because sexual assault is a very real issue that continually impacts the lives of women in this and most other countries. Based on the stats, anyone who disagrees with this sentiment is merely lucky - lucky to have not experienced sexual assault personally or through close friends/family.

I disagree.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116418/hosb1011-tabs.xls
Go to table 3.02, then compare against the other tables.
Now I'm not sure how much crime stats differ in your area, but the idea that you have to be lucky in order to not have been affected by sexual assault is absurd for England and Wales at the very least. Assuming you live in the developed west, it's probably an outlandish idea for wherever you are. I imagine that political propaganda and sensationalist media coverage have skewed your view.

How can this be such a pervasive part of our day-to-day lives without also becoming a part of our culture? How can we, and many other businesses, draw such an obvious line between genders while other people continue to dismiss the notion outright? It's a disconnect I can't fathom, and not for lack of trying.

Take a look at those stats again.
Not only is sexual assault the least common type of assault or abuse, but assault and abuse is relatively uncommon in comparison to other types of crime.
So considering the fact one is much more likely to be a victim of bicycle theft than sexual assault, do we not live in a bike theft culture?
No, because rape culture does not refer to the chance of getting raped, or the frequency of which rapes happen, but the prevalent attitudes towards rape.
Like I said in a previous post, if Saudi Arabia had only one rape a year, it would still be a rape culture.

Anyways, your rejection of the label, and your immediate deployment of pre-loaded insults, paints you as someone who thinks he somehow owns, authored, or was otherwise responsible for this culture. Just because you're a man doesn't mean it's your fault. When I say we live in a "rape culture", 'm not accusing you, personally, of anything. No need to be defensive. Rape doesn't necessarily define the culture either (I'd say runaway capitalism currently does that, but huge digression). It's just a bad feature with tricky origins that needs to be challenged by discussion and counteracting social constructs.

The best way to address his preconceptions of liberal bias is probably not to rely on your own preconceptions of him feeling like he's being blamed (although, on a humourous note, your eagerness to blame capitalism does add to the - 1970's, sitting round the camp fire, singing kum by yah, discussing marxism stereotype).
You don't have to be defensive to feel that rape culture, or even elements of rape culture, are by no means the norm in the developed west.

I read a theory that people blame victims of crimes because they don't like the idea that this sort of stuff could happen to them randomly and for no reason. So they tell themselves that the victim must've done something stupid that made them a target and if they don't do that same thing they'll be fine.

And if rape were thought to be the worst thing that can happen to someone, well it might make the belief more appealing.

Y'know I could believe that.
I've been told that some rapes go unreported as the victims believe it's can't have been proper rape because it wasn't traumatic enough. So the list of potential damage sensationalism can do with this issue just keeps on growing.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

I don't get how rape is a result of any sort of culture, it's a result of a fucked up mind and nothing else. I've not met one person that thinks rape is anything but a terrible crime, but like with self defense cases and a lot of other abuse cases the actual definition of what rape actually is up to interpretation. There's people who think any sort of drunkensex is rape (but only for the women), there are people who believe men can't get raped and there are people who think rape is only rape whb the victim suffers physical abuse. The truth is, rape is one of the only crimes where it is possible to happen without any sort of obvious damage; theft results in a stolen item, abuse results in damage to a person and murder results ins dead person; but rape doesn't certainly result in anything but mental trauma for the victim, which is why there are a lot of opinions on it.

As for victim blaming, most of the time it is people trying to be Captain Hindsight, which happens for every crime. The truth is rape can happen to anyone at any time, but like burglaries and mugging people should take precautions to minimise that risk. People who actually say it was the victims fault should just be ignored.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I don't get how rape is a result of any sort of culture, it's a result of a fucked up mind and nothing else. I've not met one person that thinks rape is anything but a terrible crime, but like with self defense cases and a lot of other abuse cases the actual definition of what rape actually is up to interpretation.

Well, yes, that's the problem. Ask people if they think rape is a good thing, and they'll probably say no. Point to a particular instance of rape, however, and many people come up with some reason why this one shouldn't count.

 

[Smeatza]

I think you screwed up the quote function because I only said that last bit.

Shit, my bad. Lemee try and correct that.

I work at a business that keeps late-night hours. We strongly encourage all female employees to request someone walk them to their cars after dark. We do this because sexual assault is a very real issue that continually impacts the lives of women in this and most other countries. Based on the stats, anyone who disagrees with this sentiment is merely lucky - lucky to have not experienced sexual assault personally or through close friends/family.

I disagree.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116418/hosb1011-tabs.xls
Go to table 3.02, then compare against the other tables.
Now I'm not sure how much crime stats differ in your area, but the idea that you have to be lucky in order to not have been affected by sexual assault is absurd for England and Wales at the very least. Assuming you live in the developed west, it's probably an outlandish idea for wherever you are. I imagine that political propaganda and sensationalist media coverage have skewed your view.

How can this be such a pervasive part of our day-to-day lives without also becoming a part of our culture? How can we, and many other businesses, draw such an obvious line between genders while other people continue to dismiss the notion outright? It's a disconnect I can't fathom, and not for lack of trying.

Take a look at those stats again.
Not only is sexual assault the least common type of assault or abuse, but assault and abuse is relatively uncommon in comparison to other types of crime.
So considering the fact one is much more likely to be a victim of bicycle theft than sexual assault, do we not live in a bike theft culture?
No, because rape culture does not refer to the chance of getting raped, or the frequency of which rapes happen, but the prevalent attitudes towards rape.
Like I said in a previous post, if Saudi Arabia had only one rape a year, it would still be a rape culture.

Anyways, your rejection of the label, and your immediate deployment of pre-loaded insults, paints you as someone who thinks he somehow owns, authored, or was otherwise responsible for this culture. Just because you're a man doesn't mean it's your fault. When I say we live in a "rape culture", 'm not accusing you, personally, of anything. No need to be defensive. Rape doesn't necessarily define the culture either (I'd say runaway capitalism currently does that, but huge digression). It's just a bad feature with tricky origins that needs to be challenged by discussion and counteracting social constructs.

The best way to address his preconceptions of liberal bias is probably not to rely on your own preconceptions of him feeling like he's being blamed (although, on a humourous note, your eagerness to blame capitalism does add to the - 1970's, sitting round the camp fire, singing kum by yah, discussing marxism stereotype).
You don't have to be defensive to feel that rape culture, or even elements of rape culture, are by no means the norm in the developed west.

I read a theory that people blame victims of crimes because they don't like the idea that this sort of stuff could happen to them randomly and for no reason. So they tell themselves that the victim must've done something stupid that made them a target and if they don't do that same thing they'll be fine.

And if rape were thought to be the worst thing that can happen to someone, well it might make the belief more appealing.

Y'know I could believe that.
I've been told that some rapes go unreported as the victims believe it's can't have been proper rape because it wasn't traumatic enough. So the list of potential damage sensationalism can do with this issue just keeps on growing.

 

[BrassButtons]

I don't get how rape is a result of any sort of culture, it's a result of a fucked up mind and nothing else. I've not met one person that thinks rape is anything but a terrible crime, but like with self defense cases and a lot of other abuse cases the actual definition of what rape actually is up to interpretation.

That last bit is where culture can come into it. For instance, our culture tends to spread the message "no means no," but this means if someone doesn't say "no" then it isn't really rape. There's a blogger I read (and would link to if I could find the relevant post, but she recently switched websites and now everything is all funky) who was very nearly raped as a teenager. She was drugged and thus couldn't really say "no", and for a long time she believed that if the guy had slept with her it wouldn't have been rape, because she didn't say "no". Even though she didn't want to have sex, and even though she had never consented, she still thought it wasn't attempted rape because she hadn't been able to tell the guy "no, I don't want to have sex." If the guy was thinking along the same lines ("it's only rape if she says 'no') then he would believe his actions were perfectly acceptable. So we have cultural ideas about what constitutes rape leading to someone very nearly being raped. The comments of that story had a lot of women saying that they had been raped, but had also not realized at the time that they were rape victims because the situation didn't match their concept of "rape". If they had been dressed provocatively, or had "lead him on", or if they were married, then it was hard for them to accept that what the guy did was not ok.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

I work at a business that keeps late-night hours. We strongly encourage all female employees to request someone walk them to their cars after dark. We do this because sexual assault is a very real issue that continually impacts the lives of women in this and most other countries. Based on the stats, anyone who disagrees with this sentiment is merely lucky - lucky to have not experienced sexual assault personally or through close friends/family.

I disagree.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116418/hosb1011-tabs.xls
Go to table 3.02, then compare against the other tables.
Now I'm not sure how much crime stats differ in your area, but the idea that you have to be lucky in order to not have been affected by sexual assault is absurd for England and Wales at the very least. Assuming you live in the developed west, it's probably an outlandish idea for wherever you are. I imagine that political propaganda and sensationalist media coverage have skewed your view.

Political propaganda tends to coalesce around some sort of economic benefit. I don't think of a bunch of women organizing "take back the night" rallies as propaganda. I also believe that sexual assault is easily the most under-reported crime in developed nations for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the viewpoint that anti-sexual assault info is somehow propaganda. I'm actually immensely insulted by that sentiment.

How can this be such a pervasive part of our day-to-day lives without also becoming a part of our culture? How can we, and many other businesses, draw such an obvious line between genders while other people continue to dismiss the notion outright? It's a disconnect I can't fathom, and not for lack of trying.

Take a look at those stats again.
Not only is sexual assault the least common type of assault or abuse, but assault and abuse is relatively uncommon in comparison to other types of crime.
So considering the fact one is much more likely to be a victim of bicycle theft than sexual assault, do we not live in a bike theft culture?
No, because rape culture does not refer to the chance of getting raped, or the frequency of which rapes happen, but the prevalent attitudes towards rape.
Like I said in a previous post, if Saudi Arabia had only one rape a year, it would still be a rape culture.

Comparing bike theft to rape because they both hold some position on a spreadsheet is a fantastic failing of analysis. Sexual assault frequently leaves victims traumatized for life. It goes well beyond the destructive impact of even non-sexual assault. Some view it as a crime on par with or even worse than death, depending on the circumstances. I think your attitude here is beyond dismissive of the special circumstances surrounding this crime.

Anyways, your rejection of the label, and your immediate deployment of pre-loaded insults, paints you as someone who thinks he somehow owns, authored, or was otherwise responsible for this culture. Just because you're a man doesn't mean it's your fault. When I say we live in a "rape culture", 'm not accusing you, personally, of anything. No need to be defensive. Rape doesn't necessarily define the culture either (I'd say runaway capitalism currently does that, but huge digression). It's just a bad feature with tricky origins that needs to be challenged by discussion and counteracting social constructs.

The best way to address his preconceptions of liberal bias is probably not to rely on your own preconceptions of him feeling like he's being blamed (although, on a humourous note, your eagerness to blame capitalism does add to the - 1970's, sitting round the camp fire, singing kum by yah, discussing marxism stereotype).
You don't have to be defensive to feel that rape culture, or even elements of rape culture, are by no means the norm in the developed west.

My eagerness to blame capitalism? Read more closely. I said "runaway capitalism", and that was in a digression with no bearing on this thread. Call it a needle, if you like. Anyways, are you one of the folks who views any criticism of capitalism as intent to enslave everyone under communism? That's honestly the best evidence for the pendulum having swung too far; right wingers love to call Obama a socialist when he's hilariously right-wing himself. Whatever, not important, part of a separate discussion that may or may not involve you (depending on whether or not you believe certain things or merely enjoy pointing them out - and yes, it was intentional on my part).

I've been told that some rapes go unreported as the victims believe it's can't have been proper rape because it wasn't traumatic enough. So the list of potential damage sensationalism can do with this issue just keeps on growing.

I find this notion completely insane. We're talking too much and too loudly about sexual assault, so a bunch of women aren't reporting it because they think they don't qualify? What's the solution to that? Talking about it less? Meanwhile, Justin Timberlake was 100% ignorant of "Take Back the Night" when he named his most recent album/single (w/e). So even some of the most well-known educators and activists regarding rape on college campuses (where the shit is rampant, btw) have almost zero recognition in popular culture. If you want to be truly depressed, go read the comments sections for the Justin Timberlake stories. They're mostly people saying they didn't know about TBTN either - and telling those stupid hippy college chicks to stfu.

Also, the stats I can find regarding England/Wales claim that 1 in 5 women between the ages of 16 and 59 have experienced sexual violence. Even if you trim that number significantly, throwing out what you or others might perceive as borderline or unqualified behavior, what could possibly be the best result? 5%? Do you know 20 women?

I almost lost a friend because she was suffering through traumatic effects from an incident that occurred years before I met her. When she revealed her story to me, I was shocked and appalled by the lack of empathy and support given her by the institutions that should have been protecting her. A ridiculous number of women carry similarly disturbing stories in silence. These aren't stolen bicycles or a run-of-the-mill dust-up. Sexual assault is very unique in its destructive potential, and I think you're analysis is missing that.