SotC Gameplay Designed by Monkeys?

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pure.Wasted

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Oct 12, 2011
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Rant inc. For TL:DR version skip to last paragraph.

I know not being head over heels in love with Shadow of the Colossus (let alone actually disliking it) is tantamount to treason, so I'm going to go ahead and skip over all of the story and character and atmospheric stuff that is arguably great about this game and jump straight to my primary beef, the gameplay. How in the world did this game get released, let alone get such rave reviews, with such awful and counter-intuitive game controls at every step of the way? In my short time playing it (I'm only on the fourth colossus) I've already encountered the following problems:

- The most useless camera in recent gaming memory. It's clunky and unresponsive. Turning around with your sword out will reveal Wander's bizarre foot fetish, as he keeps trying to look down at the ground no matter how I aim the bloody thing. The camera regularly decenters itself while you're on horseback, so that you're actually on the far right of the screen for example, which means something as trivial as knowing what's literally five feet to your right becomes needlessly complicated.

- Shooting with your bow. Moving the analog stick even slightly will routinely send your crosshair flying off the screen at the speed of sound. Good luck getting Wander to aim at the giant Colossus in front of him then. You can't even see where the crosshair is, and which direction to push the analog stick in to get it back where you need it.

- Unresponsive buttons. You get on your horse by pressing Triangle AND ONLY TRIANGLE. If you even think about holding down the directional button for moving yourself closer to the horse in the process, Wander begins jumping like a tool around his horse. Well enough once you figure it out, but the game never mentions it. For the first couple of hours I thought my success depended on star alignment and horoscope. On top of that, half of the time I try to jump up a ledge, Wander just shuffles left or right, or just grunts noncommittally. I've heard this is just a PS3 port glitch, not native to the original game, but even so that's pretty unforgiveable.

- The horse, of course. I'm all for the realism in this game (when the game's not making Wander try to tie his shoelaces with his bow while a Colossus is hurtling toward him, that is), I love the idea of a horse controlling like a horse and not like a car... but if you want me to have a horse-like horse, then you'd better make it smarter than a refrigerator. The animal insists on running up to edges or into walls even when there are obvious paths for it to go - paths toward which I am actively attempting to steer the stupid thing. Realism is a noble goal, but you need the tools to do it right. And where did this realism come from, anyway? Wasn't the camera just trying to be unreasonably scenic two seconds ago, when all I wanted was to be able to see what the freaking character is looking at?

- The useless map. I've spent more time running around the world in the hopes of finding the right crevice (that'll lead me to the right hill [that I'll look at from the right direction to notice another opening])... than I have anything else. I'm not saying I need Mass Effect or Dead Space level of guidance here, with an arrow that tells me precisely which way I should go every step of the way, but don't point me halfway across the universe when there's a mountain between me and there, and apparently five different ways of getting through that mountain (this isn't true; each path takes you in completely different directions).

- The lack of tutorials on basic game mechanics. The game never tells you that you have to move the left stick, not the right, to get the sword compass to work at all. In fact it doesn't tell you anything about your sword, other than that you've got one. Silly me for thinking that the square symbol in the distance represented the first Colossus I had to seek out, and not (magically) realizing that the prism converged into a beam if a Colossus was on the other end. That was about ten minutes down the drain.

- The boss puzzles. Yes, surprise surprise, this rant was inspired by a particular frustration. So I'm on Colossus #4, a giant giraffe with sickle legs and nothing to climb. All right, I passed a hill on my way here, maybe that has to do with it. I figure if I stand on top, it'll attack the hill and get its leg deep into the earth, and while it's all tangled up, I'll run up. Or something. Cue five minutes of failure. All right, there's bunker-like entrances inside. I figure if I run in, maybe it'll attack from above and get stuck that way. No dice. And of course getting it to try any of these things can take a ridiculous amount of time, because the Colossus turns around at the speed of continental drift. I finally look up a walkthrough on youtube: I'm supposed to get its attention so it pops its head in there and I can climb up its ass, or something. How in the world is that a more intuitive solution than the ones I spent 20 minutes trying? And haven't I already been down under? So I go back, keep trying this for five minutes, shooting it, calling my horse to make noise, whatever. Note that half of the times I go down a hole, the Colossus forgets about me and starts turning around. By the time I get it back facing me, that's another minute gone. Five minutes of this, nothing, it just stabs a few times and then gets distracted. I go back to my laptop and hit "play" on the paused video. The guy doing the walkthrough fails and after a minute the text "Sometimes it doesn't work right away" pops up on the screen.

Really, Team ICO? REALLY? I have to guess the single solution that you happened to think should work for this encounter, from a plethora of other equally valid solutions, then spend ten minutes aiming the crappy bow and getting the giraffe to look in the direction it's supposed to be looking in, and after that my success is still based on freaking luck? As of this writing, I still haven't figured it out. Another walkthrough suggested getting the giraffe's attention at one end of the bunker, running out on the other side, shooting from there, then running back and waiting two minutes before coming out to jump on its ass. I wasted five minutes doing that, and when I finally came out the giraffe wasn't even remotely interested in what I was trying to do. It was already walking away.

Do people forget all of this when they say this is the greatest game on the PS2, if not of the last decade, period? Or is the other stuff supposed to be so good that the gameplay doesn't even matter? I don't get it. From the moment I manage to latch on to a Colossus, until the thing goes down and the cinematic plays, the game's golden. Practically every single thing outside of that, however, is actively trying to make the game as frustrating as possible with its mechanics, in-game information, and user interface. All of these glitches and struggles with the interface have done so much to demolish my immersion in the game's world that I can't even see that world, I just see more empty space that I'll have to navigate with this idiotic horse in the BLIND HOPE of a Colossus being at the end of this mountain pass, and not some other one that I didn't notice.
 

80Maxwell08

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Jul 14, 2010
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Yep in total agreement here. I got the Team Ico collection some time after it came out to see what all the fuss was. Holy crap was it underwhelming. If I kept going through it I think I would have eventually gotten through Ico but SotC...just no. There was nothing enjoyable about that.
 

ColeusRattus

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Apr 16, 2009
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I have to agree with SotC's controls being clunky, but I found them quite workable after a bit of a transition phase, unlike for example Metal Gear 2's controls, which I too recently aquired in the HD edition.

It just seems that in the give or take ten years since those games were released, usiabilty has taken a huge step forward.

Having said that, I still think SotC is one of the greatest games of all time, and I did not share the rest of your problems, especially the navigation part. I never ever lost my way.

The solution to the bosses sometimes was obscure, but again, I figured them all out on my own...

I guess the game just need a tad more patience than gamers nowadays tend to have.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Eh, never really had any of those problems.

The controls weren't the best I've ever seen and some of the boss puzzle solutions were silly.

Aside from that, I have no idea what you're talking about. And that's not bad memory on my part, I replayed the game just s few months ago.
 

Dryk

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Dec 4, 2011
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Awww I thought this thread was actually going to be about Team ICO designing encounters by watching monkeys <.<
 

Bluffy

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Jul 16, 2010
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You know you can just jump and grab your horse's saddle like you would any other ledge? People seem to complain a lot about mounting your horse when there is such a simple solution to it.

As for the lack of tutorials, I'm pretty sure you can figure out jumping, climbing and rolling on your own, just saying. And they do tell you what your sword does, unless you skipped the opening cut scene for some reason.

And there is no real BLIND HOPE in the navigation. Just hold your sword up and follow the point it makes, most of the time (and by most I mean just about always) you will hit your location. If you take a different path through a mountain pass, then congrats, you've discovered classic game exploration. *clap* *clap*

A perfectly fine opinion and all, but all I'm seeing here is either lot of nit-picking, or your just not very good at it. If the latter, I can't even imagine the amount of trouble your going to have with the final colossus.
 

Iwata

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Feb 25, 2010
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Well, I enjoyed the game a lot, and to be honest, didn't notice a single one of the issues you mention. I'm not head over heels with the game, but it IS a pretty damn good game.
 

Vivi22

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Aug 22, 2010
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Just a few quibbles.

pure.Wasted said:
You can't even see where the crosshair is, and which direction to push the analog stick in to get it back where you need it.
I won't disagree that the aiming is pretty sensitive. I think you can probably change it in the settings, but I can't remember for certain. I always found myself adapting within a few minutes so I never bothered. But I have to say I've never really had trouble seeing the crosshair. I'm not even sure why you would normally to be honest. It stands out quite well against most of the environments. The only one I can think of that would be a bit of a problem would be the sandworm because it does blend in with the sand a bit, but holding L1 always centers you on the colossus anyway so you know where to look to quickly find the crosshair.

- Unresponsive buttons. You get on your horse by pressing Triangle AND ONLY TRIANGLE. If you even think about holding down the directional button for moving yourself closer to the horse in the process, Wander begins jumping like a tool around his horse.
I won't deny the controls can be pretty clunky sometimes either, but if you jump at Agro while moving you can hold R1 to grab the saddle and climb up just like just about anything else in the game.

- The horse, of course. I'm all for the realism in this game (when the game's not making Wander try to tie his shoelaces with his bow while a Colossus is hurtling toward him, that is), I love the idea of a horse controlling like a horse and not like a car... but if you want me to have a horse-like horse, then you'd better make it smarter than a refrigerator. The animal insists on running up to edges or into walls even when there are obvious paths for it to go - paths toward which I am actively attempting to steer the stupid thing. Realism is a noble goal, but you need the tools to do it right. And where did this realism come from, anyway? Wasn't the camera just trying to be unreasonably scenic two seconds ago, when all I wanted was to be able to see what the freaking character is looking at?
I have to disagree with you here. Agro can control poorly in tight spaces on occasion, but those are few and far between, and never an issue when it counts: in Colossus battles. In fact, I've owned the game since it came out, have played it several times over, and am playing through again on the PS3 now and I've never had a time where I relied on Agro to steer itself while fighting a colossus and not had it go just fine, steering around obstacles and avoiding walls without any input from me. Hell, sometimes when traversing the world I just point in the right direction and hit X a few times and sit back while Agro does the rest for a bit. It's kind of relaxing actually.

- The useless map. I've spent more time running around the world in the hopes of finding the right crevice (that'll lead me to the right hill [that I'll look at from the right direction to notice another opening])... than I have anything else. I'm not saying I need Mass Effect or Dead Space level of guidance here, with an arrow that tells me precisely which way I should go every step of the way, but don't point me halfway across the universe when there's a mountain between me and there, and apparently five different ways of getting through that mountain (this isn't true; each path takes you in completely different directions).
Exploration is part of the game, and actually one of the things I enjoy. It's fine if you don't like it, but that's part of what many enjoy about the game. On my first playthrough I once followed the light beam to a cliff with a lake below. The cliff seemed scalable so I thought the colossus would be somewhere below and began climbing down. It was actually a fairly challenging climb half way down. Then I ran out of ledges to easily grab and realized I had to be going the wrong way, but it was too late to climb back up. I ended up dropping down into the lake, hoping I didn't die on the way down, swam to the other side, and proceeded to do a bit more climbing and traveling through some woods before finding the colossus. Climbing that cliff and eventually having to jump off was tense as hell and a lot of fun. Yeah, it took me longer to get to where I was going, but the journey to get there was legitimately enjoyable, and almost as much fun as fighting a colossus to be honest (because I actually did almost die getting to the water).

- The lack of tutorials on basic game mechanics. The game never tells you that you have to move the left stick, not the right, to get the sword compass to work at all.
I seem to recall that the game explains many of the basic controls on the way to the first colossus, though I can't remember what specifically it explains. Just the same, I don't know anyone who doesn't press buttons to see what they do at the start of any game. Moreover, criticizing it for not telling you that the left stick moves you around when using the sword to reflect light and find the colossus seems pretty silly to me. You have to hold down circle to hold up your sword in the first place, meaning the only analog stick you can use at the same time is the left one. This should be fairly self-evident to anyone who's played more than a handful of video games in their life. Moreover, it would take half a second of moving that analog stick to realize the beams change as you move it, eventually converging on a single point. I believe the game also tells you you can use the light to pinpoint the weaknesses when you fight the first colossus, but I may be remembering incorrectly.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Kids these days...

When I first got the game, I was 16, didn't have any problems with any of that.

Sure, the controls are a bit clunky by today's standards, but bloody hell, it's hardly an issue.

And as for the boss puzzles?

Well, heaven forbid you have to actually think.
 
Jan 23, 2010
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Yeah I'm going to call BS on many of these. The game does explain how to roll and climb and etc. It does tell you that the sword points towards colossi if you hold it up to light. Then you see the beams and any player should notice the beams moving. Come on, do you really want the game to lead you by the nose and explain every little detail and how to kill every single enemy?

Bow controls: Yes they are sensitive. Flying of the screen though? Does holding the analog stick down for over a second constitute slightly nudging it now?

Turning around and drawing sword boot fetish something? WHAT? Try not pointing the camera straight down every once in a while then, maybe at something like you know, a colossus?

Shitty map and the occasional obscure solution, fine. I'll partly admit to that.

Almost all of these complaints seem to stem from impatience, lack of wanting to learn and master a game, and finally the modern gamers demand to have highly stimulating imagery spoon fed at a rate faster than a conveyor belt on speed.

Yeah I do have a grudge against where most games are going today.
For the record, I thought SotC was good. But nowhere near the level of praise it gets. I loved the story and the satisfaction of finally getting onto a colossus and stabbing it silly. Everything else was merely good or satisfactory.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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More Fun To Compute said:
My advice to you OP is that you should try being better at games and generally try being less miserable.
Zing!

I love the 'I'm not great at this game, ergo, it's the game's fault, not mine' logic.
 

TilMorrow

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Jul 7, 2010
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pure.Wasted said:
- The useless map. I've spent more time running around the world in the hopes of finding the right crevice (that'll lead me to the right hill [that I'll look at from the right direction to notice another opening])... than I have anything else. I'm not saying I need Mass Effect or Dead Space level of guidance here, with an arrow that tells me precisely which way I should go every step of the way, but don't point me halfway across the universe when there's a mountain between me and there, and apparently five different ways of getting through that mountain (this isn't true; each path takes you in completely different directions).
I only really agree with you on this point. That map is definitely one of the most unhelpful things ever. If only it was a bit clearer and could diffrentiate between chasms and paths. Otherwise, I haven't found many problems with the game.

So I'm on Colossus #4...
O.O I'm stuck on getting to #3. I follow the map and everything and arrive at this lake and then according to the map I'm meant to go onto the island in the middle? How?
 

95spartans

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Jul 18, 2011
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I haven't had a single one of these problems. The camera moving to the side is a bit weird but it only happens occasionally when your going a full speed, an in those cases your going to be in a wide open area. I liked the bow and actually found it rather easy to aim after a bit of getting used to. While the buttons are unresponsive it's an oldish game.Exploration is about 50% of the game, be glad they gave you a map at all. Agro (the horse) is awesome, you'll understand if you reach the end. Although it does walk into a wall occasionally it's not that much of a problem when you get use to how it moves. I never had any problem learning the controls, there isn't much help but it doesn't take long to figure out what they don't tell you. As for fighting the colossus', trial and error are an important part of taking them down, I'm not saying you shouldn't use youtube, but without it the game you be too easy.
 

ColeusRattus

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Apr 16, 2009
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On a Sidenote, I never, ever had to use the map when navigating to a colossus. As said before, just follow the light reflected by your sword.
 

burningdragoon

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Jul 27, 2009
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Haven't played the Collection version yet, but w/e.

Camera: I don't recall much trouble other than not being able to toggle inversion me being an idiot.

Bow: well this isn't exactly an FPS but I don't remember wild, uncontrollable aiming either. Actually one of the colossi requires you to be short your bow backwards while on horseback and the bow was the least of my trouble with that. So... *shrug*

Unresponsive buttons: People pointed how you can grab Agro like a ledge, but also "I can't mount while moving" isn't being unresponsive, that's responding as designed. Wander isn't a warrior or a cowboy and if you didn't notice Agro is a massive beast. I couldn't swiftly mount that thing either.

The ledge jumping can be tricky, sure.

Horse: Agro can be a real fuss sometimes, yeah. Usually though if you get him going in the right direction he should take care of the rest himself.

The map: Here's where you start getting a little silly. This game consists of two things: climbing & killing colossi and exploring & finding colossi. It can be annoying if the beam points you to a dead end but you need to just calm down and take in the adventure.

Tutorials: I don't remember exactly how the tutorials work, but you do realize there aren't that man gameplay elements. Other than ledge jumping, which I'm pretty sure there is a tutorial for, there's nothing you can't figure out but just taking a second and trying to figure out. And I'm pretty sure it does tell you how the light beam works.

Puzzles: Well I will give you that the horse colossi is frustrating to get it to do what you want. It's the only colossi I couldn't beat the hard time trials for way back when. That being said, the puzzle itself isn't that hard to figure out.

There are some valid complaints, but a lot of it seems to be this just not being your type of game (or you just being bad or way too impatient, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt).

hmm... that's it. This weekend is Team ICO collection weekend!
 

burningdragoon

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Nile McMorrow said:
O.O I'm stuck on getting to #3. I follow the map and everything and arrive at this lake and then according to the map I'm meant to go onto the island in the middle? How?
By swimming of course. There's a ramp.
 

Vivi22

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Aug 22, 2010
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Nile McMorrow said:
O.O I'm stuck on getting to #3. I follow the map and everything and arrive at this lake and then according to the map I'm meant to go onto the island in the middle? How?
There's a ramp that spirals up around the perimeter of the island. Just swim to it and run up. I'm surprised you didn't see it actually. It's quite visible from the shore line.