Space Marines: They're becoming wimpier with each generation (Now with added ORK!)

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

 

[Simriel]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

 

[keyton777]

*A Space Marine Astartes takes a blow to the chest, the round penetrating deep into his organs, ripping apart his lungs and heart*

*He shrugs them off, the wounds quickly healing themselves and re-orienting his breath and cardio to his other side of the body, making up for the organs*

To be big is to be better, can you really say that Master Chief could stop a man into oblivion? (Or survive getting ran over by a jeep...)

The Master Chief's energy shields would protect him from that shot so it would never have penetrated his armor. He doesn't need extra organs. And yes, he could survive getting run over by a jeep, he just can't in the games for the sake of balancing. If every player took 10 tank shells to the face to bring down, I don't think it would be very fun. In the first level of the Halo 3 campaign, he crashed into a jungle in africa after leaping out of a giant spaceship. If he can survive a fall all the way from the atmosphere down to the floor of a jungle in africa, I'm pretty sure he can survive a jeep.

my point, he doesnt need to be giant sized and have 6 spares....of idk, kidneys?
he has an energy sheild, and speed, he can run nearly as fast as the jeep, and he can use any gun in the feild, the space marine needs a gun big enough for him, and when he runs out of ammmo?
well id say he would be boned

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

 

[Simriel]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

 

[olicon]

If the Space Marines ever run out of ammo, he smash things. They're also depicted as carrying chainsaws (hey, I think I finally figured out where GoW got that from), swords and hammers. A few of them also throw around psionic storms. (Yes, SC WAS originally created as a 40K game)

Can anyone tell me more about the Starship Troopers marines? My only exposures to them were the movies, and they were the penultimate wuss in those.

 

[Alex_P]

We should have abandoned space marines once someone made a game about a theoretical physicist killing aliens.

To be fair, that was only his degree -- his actual job was more like "lab *****".

-- Alex

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

 

[Eipok Kruden]

my point, he doesnt need to be giant sized and have 6 spares....of idk, kidneys?
he has an energy sheild, and speed, he can run nearly as fast as the jeep, and he can use any gun in the feild, the space marine needs a gun big enough for him, and when he runs out of ammmo?
well id say he would be boned

Yep, exactly. The Spartans are so superior to the Space Marines in DoW. They're so much more efficient. Technology trumps bio-engineering in this case. Spartans are more technically advanced, Space Marines are more biologically advanced, but the Spartans win here.

 

[Simriel]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

Heh. Fluff Marines, as I like to call them, would be around 200 pts/model, have 6 wounds, & their 3+ save would be invulnerable.

 

[Simriel]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

Heh. Fluff Marines, as I like to call them, would be around 200 pts/model, have 6 wounds, & their 3+ save would be invulnerable.

Movie marines... So fun. Kroot army. 4 marines. Guess who won?

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

Edit: Ok, Warhammer 40k has been out before Doom or Starship troopers. Warhammer 40k has been out since 1983 and started as a tabletop game. And also about people saying that the WH40k Space Marines not being well equipped, you obviously haven't look into it for very long.

^Huh? Dude, Troopers is first 1953=earliest

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

Heh. Fluff Marines, as I like to call them, would be around 200 pts/model, have 6 wounds, & their 3+ save would be invulnerable.

Movie marines... So fun. Kroot army. 4 marines. Guess who won?

Personally, I think that authors on Space Marines can tend to get a little carried away when it comes to the feats of endurance from the Marines. But I can't really blame them.

 

[ward.]

Edit: Ok, Warhammer 40k has been out before Doom or Starship troopers. Warhammer 40k has been out since 1983 and started as a tabletop game. And also about people saying that the WH40k Space Marines not being well equipped, you obviously haven't look into it for very long.

Not saying they are the definition, but definitely saying they were the peak.

While the first part isn't entirely correct the last part is, Warhammers marines are the epitome of marine awesomeness.

 

[Simriel]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

Heh. Fluff Marines, as I like to call them, would be around 200 pts/model, have 6 wounds, & their 3+ save would be invulnerable.

Movie marines... So fun. Kroot army. 4 marines. Guess who won?

Personally, I think that authors on Space Marines can tend to get a little carried away when it comes to the feats of endurance from the Marines. But I can't really blame them.

Graham Mcniel has a pretty good writing style for marines. His Ultramarine series almost makes them cool.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

Heh. Fluff Marines, as I like to call them, would be around 200 pts/model, have 6 wounds, & their 3+ save would be invulnerable.

Movie marines... So fun. Kroot army. 4 marines. Guess who won?

Personally, I think that authors on Space Marines can tend to get a little carried away when it comes to the feats of endurance from the Marines. But I can't really blame them.

Graham Mcniel has a pretty good writing style for marines. His Ultramarine series almost makes them cool.

I've seen the Ultramarine Omnibus in my local GW store but I never really looked into it. I've just been hooked on the Horus Heresy series right now, especially the most recent one, dealing with the civil war within the Adeptus Mechanicus, and providing some insight into the Void Dragon.

 

[Simriel]

Ehh, I've always thought that 40K Space Marines were wimpy.

Or is that just because I play the Tau?

The Tau are wimpy as hell they cant take close combat and all they really have going for them is guns with an insane range.

Well, the Fire Warriors are a definite plus against marines, especially combined with a good Markerlight barrage from Pathfinders.

But I was not specifically talking about Fire Warriors. I was referring to the Vespids with their marine-killer guns, as well as Crisis Suits with their Plasma Rifles and let's not forget SNIPER DRONES! Marines are soooo easy to kill for Tau players.

Then you sir, have never fought a good marine player. A well written marine list will tromp tau. and vespid are a very silly choice. As much as the guns they carry can kill marines, the bolter is actually about twice as effective against them. Battlesuits and the like die under krak missiles. You have no idea how many commanders iv pot shotted with a good krak missile, and sniper drones die in the face of a scout unit with a power sword.

I can say the same for you, sir. Please bear with me as I explain how a well-written Cadre can crush Marines.

Vespid are a great choice against Marines. They aren't meant to be used as a part of the gun line. When the Assault Squads get close enough to threaten the Fire Warriors, light them up with Pathfinders. The Vespid jump over to the marines from the flanks. Using the BS 5 from the Markerlights, they savage the squad with blaster fire, then assault what's left. They have high initiative and WS, and can easily handle the shattered remnants of the squad. They are also immune from retaliatory fire from the other squads.

I do have an idea of how many commanders you would take out with pot-shots against a good Tau player: very few, if any. With battlesuits, it's jump from cover, blast away, jump behind cover. Krak missile potshots should never be a factor against mobile battlesuits. Even if you are able to draw a bead on the commander with Krak Missiles, he should have either a shield generator, shield drones, and/or bodyguards to take the hit for him. This is especially good against pesky deep-striking terminators, as the protection can easily weather the Storm Bolter & Autocannon fire for a turn before breaking out the Plasma Rifles.

As for the Sniper Drones, I never leave them unprotected to be prey for infiltrating Scout Marines. I like to keep a modest unit of Kroot close by, both to protect the snipers as well as foiling infiltration possibilites. And boy, do Rail Rifles kill dem Marines good.

It just came to me that this neither of us can win here. We both obviously have experience killing other races. The thing that i get to boast about is that i win about 90% of the games i play, and i use a general purpose list. Not written to combat one army. Just a general list.

Indeed. You're right. I just really get into discussing strategy. Tau have a really steep difficulty curve, and I'm proud of my abilities as a Cadre commander now. The only race I can't seem to find a strategy to beat are those damn Eldar...

A well written eldar list is doom. In fact its the only army i systematically get my ass kicked by. Ended a 20 odd game winning streak twice. Also i win a lot because im a RARE kind of marine player, who uses tactics.

You'll always find players who refuse to use tactics with their armies. You also rarely see tacticians from Necrons, Guard, Orks, Tyranids, or other "Horde" armies. Races like the Dark Eldar, regular Eldar, Tau, and Grey Knights DEMAND strategy in order to win consistently. I found that out the hard way when I started playing the Tau.

If i wanted to throw tactics out the window i would go back to my Black Templar. I miss chapter traits though...

Yeah, I guess there's bugger-all strategy involved with them. "Even if we fail our leadership tests...CHARGE!"

They changed it. Its if you pass you get to charge.

Shows you how long it's been since I've faced Templars =p

The Chapters I've faced recently: "The Golden Avengers", "The Shadow of the Emperor", and "The Imperial Vanguard", all with their own color schemes.

I use the 'Dawnscythes' Formed from a warp trapped unit of loyalist marines of the Death guard who missed the heresy.

Inspired by "Flight of the Einstein"? The Horus Heresy series is pure genius, and excellent reading!

GYAHH!!!! I was using the dawnscythes in 4th ed! PRE-GARRUS! never read them the books, been told they are good. But now everyone thinks i ripped them off!

Yeah, I had a problem like that, though admittedly not as big as yours. I played Fire Warrior when it came out, and liked it at the time. So I then changed my Shas'O's name to O'Kais. I thought it was clever. Then Dark Crusade came out, with O'Kais the Tau commander. Then everyone I played thought I just ripped it off of Dark Crusade, so I changed it to O'Davlath. I miss calling him O'Kais though.

Firewarrior was sup par for me. The pulse rifle was so underpowered. it was the same as a lasgun ffs! Also talking of wimpy marines... Far too few shots to kill one!

Fire Warrior got me to thinking though: Is a Bolter the SMG-like variety that you see in Dawn of War or the semi-automatic grenade-launcher from Fire Warrior? And why do Chaos Bolters carry one more bolt than the Imperial variety?

The reason the bolter in fire warrior is semi auto, is because only a marine is strong enough to use it with accuracy at full auto.

So I guess the object of this thread should be "Space Marines getting weaker? Or is it their weapons?" if you can see the dichotomy in damage between a bolter firing semi-auto from a Shas'la and a squad of Marines firing their bolters in full auto in Dawn of War.

If marines had even been close to how powerful they are in the tabletop, nevermind fluff wise, it would have been an unbalanced game.

Heh. Fluff Marines, as I like to call them, would be around 200 pts/model, have 6 wounds, & their 3+ save would be invulnerable.

Movie marines... So fun. Kroot army. 4 marines. Guess who won?

Personally, I think that authors on Space Marines can tend to get a little carried away when it comes to the feats of endurance from the Marines. But I can't really blame them.

Graham Mcniel has a pretty good writing style for marines. His Ultramarine series almost makes them cool.

I've seen the Ultramarine Omnibus in my local GW store but I never really looked into it. I've just been hooked on the Horus Heresy series right now, especially the most recent one, dealing with the civil war within the Adeptus Mechanicus, and providing some insight into the Void Dragon.

I'll read them someday. I Mostly just read the Ciaphas Cane series.

 

[superbleeder12]

I've only recently gotten into the WH40K universe, and the one faction that has really garnered a lot of my interest is the Grey Knights.

I've always seen the Halberd as an elegant weapon, and the Knights are just uber-diesel.

I've looked up some strategy and the grey knights work really well with some IG support.

 

[Trivun]

Infinitely powerful (or at least very powerful) Space Marines mean that it isn't fun anymore. Who wants to play Warhammer 40k or the games based on it when Space Marines always There'd be no point to the rest of the species/factions involved then. Gets rid of the whole point and all the fun...