star wars episode II an unanswered question

[shootthebandit]

I know a lot of you here are probably uber starwars geeks and all fairness to you the films are pretty damn good but i was watching episode II which was on TV yesterday and i got to thinking.

Why are these clone armies fucking badass but storm troopers are possibly the most terrible goons ever. Surely as episodes 4-6 are set further in the future but why are the armies getting worse. I know the clones are all clones of django fett and one special pure clone was boba fett (hence why they were so good). But it kinda makes sense to stick with these rather than those aweful stormtroopers

Also why didnt someone kill anakin earlier on? In episode 1 he was an irritating little brat but he kinda got away with it because he was only a little kid. But in episode 2 he is unbearably abnoxious and just a general douchebasket

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

About the clones, I recall someone somewhere sometime theorizing the quality of the clones decreased over time.
About Anakin, why would anybody kill him? Would you really expect Obi Wan or Mace or Yoda to kill the kid because he was "irritating" or "abnaxious" (sic)? They were training the dude, he was supposed to bring back peace to the galaxy.

 

[Hoplon]

Because in Ep 2 they are the good guys, in ep's 4-6 they are the bad guys.

Really nothing more mysterious than that.

 

[madwarper]

i was watching episode II which was on TV yesterday

That's your first mistake.

and i got to thinking.

Putting further thought into the Prequels is your second.

Why are these clone armies fucking badass but storm troopers are possibly the most terrible goons ever.

Possibly because the Clones were lead by the Jedi. Possibly because of genetic degradation.

 

[shrekfan246]

I know a lot of you here are probably uber starwars geeks and all fairness to you the films are pretty damn good

Not sure if serious...

Why are these clone armies fucking badass but storm troopers are possibly the most terrible goons ever. Surely as episodes 4-6 are set further in the future but why are the armies getting worse. I know the clones are all clones of django fett and one special pure clone was boba fett (hence why they were so good). But it kinda makes sense to stick with these rather than those aweful stormtroopers

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be assumed that the Clone Troopers are Stormtroopers. Or something. But there would be a few things that contribute to the ineffectiveness of Stormtroopers; First of all they've spent decades without any formidable opposition. You'd figure the Empire would run a pretty strict training regimen, but complacency gets the best of everyone when you rule with an iron fist and have an insignificant enemy that doesn't gain any sort of real sway until a magical space monk joins them.

Also eventually the Clone Troopers would die off, and I imagine that Jango Fett isn't still around to make perfect clones (what with dying in Episode II and all), so if they're continuing to clone soldiers (which I'm inclined to believe, since every trooper with a speaking part has the same voice from what I recall) it's probably from a less effective host to begin with.

And really, the Clone Troopers aren't necessarily better than the Stormtroopers... they had the element of surprise on their hands when Order 66 came and they slaughtered the Jedi. Although I suppose the fact that Ewoks could take down Imperial troops is pretty telling...

Also why didnt someone kill anakin earlier on? In episode 1 he was an irritating little brat but he kinda got away with it because he was only a little kid. But in episode 2 he is unbearably abnoxious and just a general douchebasket

Because the Force.

No, really. It was a supposed prophesy that a 'chosen one' would return balance to the Force; The Jedi assumed that meant routing out the Sith, Palpatine assumed that meant killing all of the Jedi. Neither were really wrong, in my interpretation. But the Dark Side of the Force clouded the visions of the future to the Jedi, so they couldn't know what Anakin would eventually be lead to do.

 

[Dalek Caan]

As I understand it the Clones where trained from birth and where made for war, the storm troopers where just guys who joined the Empires army and where trained normally(whatever normal for star wars is).

 

[senordesol]

As I understand it, Stormtroopers were not clones but guys who were conscripted or signed up. While the clones served their purpose with order 66, the Emperor didn't want someone doing the exact same thing to him (programming a latent assassination order) and phased the clone troopers out. I think the only remaining regiment by ANH was the 501st, Vader's personal legion.

Also, Republic military design philosophy was geared toward practicality (sort of) whereas Imperial philosophy was more toward intimidation. Stormtroopers were more of a bluff than an actual fighting unit (one so good that apparently even Obi-Wan thought they were a force to be reckoned with).

 

[Quaxar]

As I understand it, Stormtroopers were not clones but guys who were conscripted or signed up. While the clones served their purpose with order 66, the Emperor didn't want someone doing the exact same thing to him (programming a latent assassination order) and phased the clone troopers out. I think the only remaining regiment by ANH was the 501st, Vader's personal legion.

Pretty much. Stormtroopers are people, not clones. And I think the main decision for that was the Kamino Rebellion in the first days of the new Empire after which the Emperor basically got rid of the whole Kaminoan clone facilities.

You might also remember this as part of the plot of Battlefront II.

There is also a very good psychological explanation for Stormtrooper aim. Because their intimidating white armor conceals their humanity the rebels have it much easier to kill them while every time a Stormtrooper kills someone else they necessarily perceive more of that death, suffering worse psychological trauma than the reverse. While the original clones of course descended from someone who proved quite indifferent to taking lives and were highly trained for battle all their lives.
And also the fact that in a whole galaxy not every trooper will have the same training, someone taken from basic training to act as guard on an already invincible spacestation will be much worse than an Imperial Marine with loads of combat experience. Same as always, you don't expect a regular US Army guy to do live up to Green Beret standards.

And since when do Jedi kill someone for being a "douchebasket" (which i expect to be a very painful concoction)?

 

[Gatx]

I know a lot of you here are probably uber starwars geeks and all fairness to you the films are pretty damn good but i was watching episode II which was on TV yesterday and i got to thinking.

Why are these clone armies fucking badass but storm troopers are possibly the most terrible goons ever. Surely as episodes 4-6 are set further in the future but why are the armies getting worse. I know the clones are all clones of django fett and one special pure clone was boba fett (hence why they were so good). But it kinda makes sense to stick with these rather than those aweful stormtroopers

Also why didnt someone kill anakin earlier on? In episode 1 he was an irritating little brat but he kinda got away with it because he was only a little kid. But in episode 2 he is unbearably abnoxious and just a general douchebasket

Last post touched on it a bit but basically in Battlefront 2, there's a mission where the Kaminoans grow a batch of clones solely to rebel against the Empire. To avoid any such an event again, cloning is banned and the military started recruiting normal guys.

 

[Megalodon]

Pretty much. Stormtroopers are people, not clones. And I think the main decision for that was the Kamino Rebellion in the first days of the new Empire after which the Emperor basically got rid of the whole Kaminoan clone facilities.

You might also remember this as part of the plot of Battlefront II.

Actually Battlefront II says that after Kamino new Stormtroopers were cloned form multiple sources, so they were still clones, just not Fett clones.

Spoiler: important bit at 6:50

There is also a very good psychological explanation for Stormtrooper aim. Because their intimidating white armor conceals their humanity the rebels have it much easier to kill them while every time a Stormtrooper kills someone else they necessarily perceive more of that death, suffering worse psychological trauma than the reverse. While the original clones of course descended from someone who proved quite indifferent to taking lives and were highly trained for battle all their lives.

And (Ewoks excepted, becuase fuck Ewoks), they are actually quite effective when engaging the rebel army (Hoth, Tantive IV), as then they're fighting a uniformed foe, which dehumanises them. While when they're shooting the protagonists they see a bunch of civilians, and so are less likely to shoot true.

 

[DishonoredElderSouls]

As I understand it, Stormtroopers were not clones but guys who were conscripted or signed up. While the clones served their purpose with order 66, the Emperor didn't want someone doing the exact same thing to him (programming a latent assassination order) and phased the clone troopers out. I think the only remaining regiment by ANH was the 501st, Vader's personal legion.

Also, Republic military design philosophy was geared toward practicality (sort of) whereas Imperial philosophy was more toward intimidation. Stormtroopers were more of a bluff than an actual fighting unit (one so good that apparently even Obi-Wan thought they were a force to be reckoned with).

I was going to make the aforementioned points of inefficient cloning over the decades, but this alternate theory fits more with the series. This makes sense seeing as the Imperial Officers aren't all identical.

I don't care for Star Wars, but the Stormtroopers were always one of my favourite parts of the original movies.

 

[an annoyed writer]

Rob Rath on this very site did an excellent column about the changes to imperial Military Doctrine, which led to the decreasing quality of the clones. It's part of his series of Critical Intel weekly columns.

 

[OneCatch]

I know a lot of you here are probably uber starwars geeks and all fairness to you the films are pretty damn good but i was watching episode II which was on TV yesterday and i got to thinking.

Why are these clone armies fucking badass but storm troopers are possibly the most terrible goons ever. Surely as episodes 4-6 are set further in the future but why are the armies getting worse. I know the clones are all clones of django fett and one special pure clone was boba fett (hence why they were so good). But it kinda makes sense to stick with these rather than those aweful stormtroopers

Also why didnt someone kill anakin earlier on? In episode 1 he was an irritating little brat but he kinda got away with it because he was only a little kid. But in episode 2 he is unbearably abnoxious and just a general douchebasket

Latent star wars knowledge surfacing.....

There are a few reasons:

First was that the Jedi were really competent leaders (able to feel the future, superhuman fighters - what more do you want?).

Second was that the first batch of clones were trained by Jango and other Mandalorians - universe's best shock troops. Later batches weren't, so weren't as effective.

Third is that subsequent batches are described in the EU as being crap because of being pushed into war before training finished (I seem to remember that was inspired by the real life and much reviled Repple-Depple system used by the US in WWII).

Fourth is that later clones used degraded genetic material because they couldn't get more living tissue after Jango died (Boba had disappeared, so they had to use clone DNA repeatedly, which caused genetic problems).

Fifth is that the Stormtroopers were opened up to other humans and near humans after the clone wars, meaning that by the time of ANH only about 5-10% of stormtroopers were clones.

Sixth is that there were early rebel operations to sabotage imperial production facilities to make their gear unreliable (obvious retcon is obvious).

Seventh (running out steam now) was that the clones were trained specifically to fight droids. It's the reason they do pretty badly against non-droid opponents like Grievous or even Neimodians in the Clone War. They do similarly badly against erratic rebel forces committing ad-hoc attacks, but very well against them in conventional battles (Hoth).

Ok, that's everything I can think of!

 

[Queen Michael]

When ep. IV-VI take place, ordinary people (non-clone humans, that is) were allowed to join the stormtroopera. The Jedi clone army was clone-exclusive.

 

[Glongpre]

I thought that the clones aged quicker and they would be dead by ep. 4. I don't know if they made more after that first batch.

Stormtroopers are recruits.

 

[Quaxar]

Pretty much. Stormtroopers are people, not clones. And I think the main decision for that was the Kamino Rebellion in the first days of the new Empire after which the Emperor basically got rid of the whole Kaminoan clone facilities.

You might also remember this as part of the plot of Battlefront II.

Actually Battlefront II says that after Kamino new Stormtroopers were cloned form multiple sources, so they were still clones, just not Fett clones.

Spoiler: important bit at 6:50

Oh right. Well, been some time since I last played the campaign.

Still, can't imagine that the entire Empire would not employ regular people as troops, considering you save all the money for clones plus stimulating the job market, offering opportunity to isolated regions and employing local forces who are much more knowledgeable and passionat about their planet. And those officers gotta come from somewhere too.
Though what irks me is the apparent lack of non-human military. Seems kinda racist in a galaxy with so many alien life forms everywhere. But then again that's probably not that improbable when you put an elderly white male human in a position of absolute power.

There is also a very good psychological explanation for Stormtrooper aim. Because their intimidating white armor conceals their humanity the rebels have it much easier to kill them while every time a Stormtrooper kills someone else they necessarily perceive more of that death, suffering worse psychological trauma than the reverse. While the original clones of course descended from someone who proved quite indifferent to taking lives and were highly trained for battle all their lives.

And (Ewoks excepted, becuase fuck Ewoks), they are actually quite effective when engaging the rebel army (Hoth, Tantive IV), as then they're fighting a uniformed foe, which dehumanises them. While when they're shooting the protagonists they see a bunch of civilians, and so are less likely to shoot true.

Come to think of it, this is kind of similar to the American Revolution, a superior military power that's stuck in outdated ways of engagement. The Clone Wars were full of full-on droid vs clone battles with orderly rows of droids marching against a similarly matched Republican army with heavy but slow tanks and all sorts of artillery, while the rebels almost exclusively used guerilla tactics, sabotage and espionage, Yavin IV probably being one of their first real open battles.

 

[TheGrandTatunkanite]

Pretty much. Stormtroopers are people, not clones. And I think the main decision for that was the Kamino Rebellion in the first days of the new Empire after which the Emperor basically got rid of the whole Kaminoan clone facilities.

You might also remember this as part of the plot of Battlefront II.

Actually Battlefront II says that after Kamino new Stormtroopers were cloned form multiple sources, so they were still clones, just not Fett clones.

Spoiler: important bit at 6:50

Oh right. Well, been some time since I last played the campaign.

Still, can't imagine that the entire Empire would not employ regular people as troops, considering you save all the money for clones plus stimulating the job market, offering opportunity to isolated regions and employing local forces who are much more knowledgeable and passionat about their planet. And those officers gotta come from somewhere too.
Though what irks me is the apparent lack of non-human military. Seems kinda racist in a galaxy with so many alien life forms everywhere. But then again that's probably not that improbable when you put an elderly white male human in a position of absolute power.

There is also a very good psychological explanation for Stormtrooper aim. Because their intimidating white armor conceals their humanity the rebels have it much easier to kill them while every time a Stormtrooper kills someone else they necessarily perceive more of that death, suffering worse psychological trauma than the reverse. While the original clones of course descended from someone who proved quite indifferent to taking lives and were highly trained for battle all their lives.

And (Ewoks excepted, becuase fuck Ewoks), they are actually quite effective when engaging the rebel army (Hoth, Tantive IV), as then they're fighting a uniformed foe, which dehumanises them. While when they're shooting the protagonists they see a bunch of civilians, and so are less likely to shoot true.

Come to think of it, this is kind of similar to the American Revolution, a superior military power that's stuck in outdated ways of engagement. The Clone Wars were full of full-on droid vs clone battles with orderly rows of droids marching against a similarly matched Republican army with heavy but slow tanks and all sorts of artillery, while the rebels almost exclusively used guerilla tactics, sabotage and espionage, Yavin IV probably being one of their first real open battles.

Actually human supremacy in the Empire is deliberate policy, as it is for the other evil factions in other areas of the Expanded Universe (Sith Empire in KOTOR constantly going on about "alien scum").

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Human_High_Culture

However that doesn't explain why there are very few aliens shown among the "good guy" armies.

 

[Evonisia]

I don't know if it's canon in the universe, but in Star Wars: Battlefront II it's revealed that Kamino tried to stop clone production, so not only did the Empire have to resort to using different clones, they even recruited people. This is probably why the non-masked Empire soldiers have different faces.

Another thing to note is that the Battle Droids, robotic creatures, have more personality than the Stormtroopers and even have better aim which is saying a lot in the Star Wars universe.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Well you see when they were Clone Troopers they were the good guys, therefore they were in full command of their mental faculties (greater in fact, it's well know that being the good guys acts as a mild steroid). As soon as Order 66 was issued they began suffering from EHS (Evil Henchman Syndrome). Their brains slowly turned into bits of old sofa stuffing, but the effect was slow enough to allow them to ***** the remaining Jedi into oblivion. By the time Episode IV rolls around, Clone Troopers are just about capable of wiping the dribble from their chins, pulling their fingers from their noses and pointing a gun in the vague direction of our heroes.

 

[saintdane05]

When ep. IV-VI take place, ordinary people (non-clone humans, that is) were allowed to join the stormtroopera. The Jedi clone army was clone-exclusive.

From sources like Star Wars: Jedi Starfighter and Nomad, and even through various Star Wars: Republic comics and the novels Labyrinth of Evil and Jedi Trial, there are several instances before and after the Battle of Geonosis showing non-clone soldiers serving as the majority of forces in military conflicts and being actively recruited by various military organizations. The reliability and quality of mercenaries and bounty hunters would not be high, and having large numbers of non-clone troops available from the outset of the war would have eliminated the need for a clone army and ended/prevented the controversy over the Military Creation Act. It should also be stated that the sources that depict non-clone forces prior to Geonosis are all referring to small-scale conflicts and minor battles.

Additionally, the non-clone military forces in the Battle of Praesitlyn in Jedi Trial were largely non-Republic mercenary forces. The Sons and Daughters of Freedom mercenary group, which contained 50,000 infantry troops and thousands more serving as armored unit and starship crew members, had its number of active members reduced to fewer than 2,000 operatives by the end of the battle. Moreover, the non-clone Praesitlyn Defense Force is entirely wiped out by the droid invasion force, with its own commander stating that non-clones are far capable at combating battle droids. Likewise, while the Republic force sent to Praesitlyn consisted of only 20,000 clones, as well as additional non-clones, the only non-clones described in the novel are member of either the command staff, starship crews, or support personnel. When that force faced off against the Separatist force of over one million droids, the clones took extremely heavy casualties and would have lost the battle had it not been for two successful suicide missions undertaken by the commanding Jedi General against the Separatist leadership.

And (Ewoks excepted, becuase fuck Ewoks),

The Ewoks won because of he element of surprise, in a way. When occupying Endor's moon, they simply left the Ewok's alone, thinking that they were no threat.
"We can safely ignore these contemptible little fur-balls."
―Captain Toss, Imperial Survey Team IX3244-B

However, a botched attempt at first contact with Ewoks by some Imperial soldiers resulted in Ewoks terrorizing Imperial positions. Still, the Ewok's were ignored. Then, they launched a surprise ambush on the imperial position at the shield generator. Although initially surprised by the ambush, Tempest Force regained the upper hand and squads of Stormtroopers pursued the Ewoks into the forest. Despite being outnumbered by the natives, the Stormtroopers with their armor and advanced weapons forced the Ewoks back, and Imperial AT-ST scout walkers decimated Ewok holdouts. The Ewoks tried, but were unsuccessful with a number of tactics, such as using gliders to drop stones on top of the walkers, and trying to trip them with ropes.