Star Wars: The Old Republic Hands On

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Vrach

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animehermit said:
There are other limitations put on GW2 simply because it ISN'T a sub game, things like the number of loading screens and the size of the zones, things they don't advertise in the game play demos.

There are also several things that bug me about GW2's design philosophy that bother me, they have yet to show group content that actually shows people working together and not just doing their own thing. The instant teleporting to places you have been thing puts me off too, all that does is make the world feel smaller for the player. They make a big deal out of the event system, but so far the objectives of this system have been, for the most part, same old quest objectives we get in every mmo. I can either kill guys or collect stuff, super revolutionary Arenanet.
See, I'm not the tiniest bit surprised by that. I was actually wondering, if they're making a full on triple A MMO, how are they getting away with not being ppm or charging for microtransactions like the others (there will be microtransactions, but nothing that restricts content, just stuff like character slots and vanity items). I guess that explains it.

Either way, I'll see on launch, as I said, for all the issues it might have, it'll still be a worthy purchase considering it's a pay once, play forever model, but I very much doubt it'll be my MMO of choice, TOR has that spot secured with everything from the Star Wars setting to knowing how to advance the MMO genre - bit by bit.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Zhukov said:
Doesn't the group thing get in the way of the conversations?

I'd be pretty miffed if I wanted to ask a character for more story content, only to have one of my colleagues hit the 'just shoot him' option.
And that would happen 100% of the time in my group.

*angry face*
 

Monsterfurby

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Scars Unseen said:
As a role-player myself, I've pretty much resolved this by treating the character I play in the story as completely separate from the one I play in all other situations. I just view the story as another evolution of the "theme park".

More worrying for me are the artificial character limitations that the story creates. Reportedly, you can't play, for example, a Pureblood Sith inquisitor. Why? Because in the inquisitor's story, you start out as a slave, and Purebloods aren't slaves. There are Pureblood inquisitors; you just can't play one. This is a pretty annoying limitation for anyone who actually wants to role-play.
Your solution is probably the only feasible one, and I guess it is manageable in an in-game context. Certainly, the same effect occurs in other MMORPGs that have a stringent quest structure as well, but quests there are often forgettable enough to not impact your experience that much if you just don't consider them part of your character's background.

I am not saying that SWTOR is going to be a bad game - by no means. In fact, what I have seen so far looks very promising. I am just worried that the 'game' aspect might overwhelm the 'multiplayer online role-playing' part of the equation. The character limitations you mention are another good point. The player will take a rather pre-determined role and go through a rather pre-determined (albeit probably exciting, gripping and well-designed) story which limits their ability to play the character they want. Add to that the need to filter out a lot of story and consider it as if it never happened, and you get my concerns about this being a good game, but not very immersive on the multiplayer part.

It IS easier to just ignore half-naked night elves running around yelling "LOLOLOLOLOLO" than ignoring something that is actually presented to your character as his or her actual in-universe experience.

Then again, the problem might be systemic. MMORPGs always had this problem, and I know of only four that did not: Ultima Online, Face of Mankind, EVE Online and, interestingly enough, Star Wars Galaxies.
All of these are built on the exact opposite principle to SWTOR - a persistent world. Sure, players can build not very roleplay conforming cities and have names that are kind of non-immersive, but the fact that you are free to act and build your own story already provides a lot of immersion.
As a roleplayer, I always looked at everything as if I was seeing it through sort of a translation lens - the "n00bownzers" guild might be called that, but by simply assuming that they probably have simply an equivalent name within the setting, albeit not the exact same one. It's just a translation thing. (For more elaboration on that, simply read T.H. White's "The Once and Future King" - he essentially tries to explain the story of King Arthur in modern words so as to make it understandable)

Does this work in SWTOR though? I would argue that it could be really hard to do this here. The game seems to try to immerse the player by taking away that translation lens, filtering the experience and making it more streamlined. In the process however, it takes imagination and individual gaming experiences out of the equation, thus possibly hurting the appeal of its multiplayer aspect or long-term motivation.

In conclusion, I do have to re-emphasize one thing: SWTOR is likely going to be a great game. Despite the cost, I will probably play it myself at some point. I am just slightly disappointed by the fact that, instead of developing better ways to procedurally tailor a story to the player character, they went the easy route of providing what is essentially a well-crafted but not very dynamic co-op experience.






tl;dr version: I agree with you, and I am somewhat worried that the linear nature of the game might hurt its long-term motivation.
 

LogicNProportion

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Lawyer105 said:
Steve Butts said:
I see a lot of references to "Separatists" there. Are you really sure about that??

I'm not quite the SW fanboi I used to be in times gone by, but I'm pretty sure the Separatists were the ones that got caned during the creation of the Evil Empire.

I'm also pretty sure that there were only 2 Sith around during that time.

Not to immediately call doom or anything, but I'm not sure the consistency people have got their act together on this one.

<----- Is less hopeful than ever for TOR.
...Separatists is a term for usually any group of people, in fiction or real life, who wish to secede from something.

There have been multiple groups of separatists in the Star Wars universe, as there has been in real life, which is understandable seeing as we're now covering over 4000 years of Star Wars timeline, that involves planets across a whole galaxy.
 

Moosejaw

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All my buddies and I jumped on the Guild Wars bandwagon quite a long time ago and it just didn't work out too well. The intro levels were nice, but after the timeskip things just went downhill. You were pretty much stuck in a scarred fiery landscape for what seemed like ages that differed very little and those goddamned scorpions popped up after every 10 feet and took way too long to dispatch.

Then when we DID finally hit the mountains and you could get 6 people on a team, using henchmen to round out our numbers wasn't feasible and I just didn't like the prospect of having to PuG every damned time I wanted to quest, so that was the end of that. I'm sure they've steamlined it or we were doing something wrong, but it was just a poor experience starting out.

I don't expect TOR to be the MMO to end all MMOs, or even all THAT original, I'm sure it's essentially a WoW offshoot as far as the fundamentals go but that's enough for me. Plenty of extra flavor after playing a game for 6 years to keep me going for another few at least.
 

poleboy

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babinro said:
Personally, I would buy into the subscription model if the game and all expansions were entirely free to begin with. I'd admittedly still spend more on the MMO than I would a typical game, but at least I wouldn't feel as though I'm being ripped off as soon as I enter month 2.
This is the more sensible solution to me, and what I think we will see in future MMO's 5-10 yeras from now, perhaps combined with f2P. No MMO I have ever played came close to justifying a $15 fee every month from every player in terms of game updates and new content, things that are not simply bug fixes and tweaks (which I don't think the player should be paying for).
This would be more digestible to me if it was the only fee charge, but in-game cash shops, the initial purchase and yearly full-price expansions (which are the ones that usually add the actual content rather than what goes on between expansions) just piss me off. It's a lot of money you're shelling out without getting anything tangible back, and no one's ever offered a reasonable explanation as to where all that money goes and why it's necessary to keep the game running.
 

Sixcess

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Steve Butts said:
BioWare's promised to bring meaningful storytelling to the MMO genre and, based on the starting planets at least, that promise has been fulfilled. For one thing, all the content on the starting planets revolves around a single theme.
Every MMO I have played for any length of time has a theme for the storylines in its starting region, and the regions that follow. Every. Fucking. One. With the exception of cluttering the game up with cutscenes Bioware are not doing anything new, so can we please for the sake of my sanity stop quoting this marketing bullshit like it's actually true.
 

Clonekiller

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Ooooooo. I'm a sucker for a good BioWare RPG, and the prospect of a BioWare game that lasts some 5 times longer than the average one... Dang it. I just can't afford to pay subscription fees.
 

2xDouble

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animehermit said:
There are other limitations put on GW2 simply because it ISN'T a sub game, things like the number of loading screens and the size of the zones, things they don't advertise in the game play demos.

There are also several things that bug me about GW2's design philosophy that bother me, they have yet to show group content that actually shows people working together and not just doing their own thing. The instant teleporting to places you have been thing puts me off too, all that does is make the world feel smaller for the player. They make a big deal out of the event system, but so far the objectives of this system have been, for the most part, same old quest objectives we get in every mmo. I can either kill guys or collect stuff, super revolutionary Arenanet.
Vrach said:
See, I'm not the tiniest bit surprised by that. I was actually wondering, if they're making a full on triple A MMO, how are they getting away with not being ppm or charging for microtransactions like the others (there will be microtransactions, but nothing that restricts content, just stuff like character slots and vanity items). I guess that explains it.

Either way, I'll see on launch, as I said, for all the issues it might have, it'll still be a worthy purchase considering it's a pay once, play forever model, but I very much doubt it'll be my MMO of choice, TOR has that spot secured with everything from the Star Wars setting to knowing how to advance the MMO genre - bit by bit.
But... all of that stuff WAS shown, and has been shown at every demo this year. And talked about extensively by ArenaNet to anyone who asked them.

The size of each individual zone is approximately three times the square footage of Kalimdor. (verified by fans of EVE, of all people).

There are loading portals only between the large zones, not specific areas, and instances. In fact, every high-level map shown has been a single zone (the lower level maps border between the starting zone and a capital city).

Teamwork in the game (or at least in combat) is subtler (visually) than "traditional MMOs", because there is no one person in front taking all the damage and a row of spellcasters lined up behind him. But it certainly is there. Just watch Totalbiscuit [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWAlT8XpGG4] take an Event from impossible to merely overwhelming "thanks to the heroic efforts of Herp Derp.", or the high-level PvP [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXc1JwHGNik] matches (which, admittedly, aren't the best examples because the observer mode and replay feature weren't fully implemented. but it does show players working together as a team.)

They've shown dozens of Events involving no combat whatsoever, such as solving riddles, moving rabbits away from a watermelon patch, repairing aqueducts and irrigation systems, and building siege engines. Even collecting stuff is an afterthought. One Event in particular involves putting out fires on a farm, and occasionally, apples will fall out of the burning baskets. If you collect the apples and return them to the farmer, he'll bake you a pie with them. If you don't, oh well, you still get the Event rewards.
Seems I have to post this again:

 

Steve Butts

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Ah, but the issue here is that every quest is related to this theme. There are plenty of MMOs that have some sort of theme, but there are also plenty of side quest lines that aren't connected to the main story.
 

MajorDolphin

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Looks neat and all but I wonder if we'll have to wait til the 3rd of 4th expansion pack to, you know, fly spaceships.
 

ionveau

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2xDouble said:
animehermit said:
There are other limitations put on GW2 simply because it ISN'T a sub game, things like the number of loading screens and the size of the zones, things they don't advertise in the game play demos.

There are also several things that bug me about GW2's design philosophy that bother me, they have yet to show group content that actually shows people working together and not just doing their own thing. The instant teleporting to places you have been thing puts me off too, all that does is make the world feel smaller for the player. They make a big deal out of the event system, but so far the objectives of this system have been, for the most part, same old quest objectives we get in every mmo. I can either kill guys or collect stuff, super revolutionary Arenanet.
Vrach said:
See, I'm not the tiniest bit surprised by that. I was actually wondering, if they're making a full on triple A MMO, how are they getting away with not being ppm or charging for microtransactions like the others (there will be microtransactions, but nothing that restricts content, just stuff like character slots and vanity items). I guess that explains it.

Either way, I'll see on launch, as I said, for all the issues it might have, it'll still be a worthy purchase considering it's a pay once, play forever model, but I very much doubt it'll be my MMO of choice, TOR has that spot secured with everything from the Star Wars setting to knowing how to advance the MMO genre - bit by bit.
But... all of that stuff WAS shown, and has been shown at every demo this year. And talked about extensively by ArenaNet to anyone who asked them.

The size of each individual zone is approximately three times the square footage of Kalimdor. (verified by fans of EVE, of all people).

There are loading portals only between the large zones, not specific areas, and instances. In fact, every high-level map shown has been a single zone (the lower level maps border between the starting zone and a capital city).

Teamwork in the game (or at least in combat) is subtler (visually) than "traditional MMOs", because there is no one person in front taking all the damage and a row of spellcasters lined up behind him. But it certainly is there. Just watch Totalbiscuit [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWAlT8XpGG4] take an Event from impossible to merely overwhelming "thanks to the heroic efforts of Herp Derp.", or the high-level PvP [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXc1JwHGNik] matches (which, admittedly, aren't the best examples because the observer mode and replay feature weren't fully implemented. but it does show players working together as a team.)

They've shown dozens of Events involving no combat whatsoever, such as solving riddles, moving rabbits away from a watermelon patch, repairing aqueducts and irrigation systems, and building siege engines. Even collecting stuff is an afterthought. One Event in particular involves putting out fires on a farm, and occasionally, apples will fall out of the burning baskets. If you collect the apples and return them to the farmer, he'll bake you a pie with them. If you don't, oh well, you still get the Event rewards.
Seems I have to post this again:

This guys opinion is less valid than mine or your by the fact he plays games to gain income on his channel, so pissing off the SWTOR people will lose him the WoW players from his channel, or people that like wow but dont play but are going to play SWTOR for some reason.

I'm just going to say SWTOR maybe good(highly unlikely) but the main issue is that it cannot justify the monthly fee, The fact that old MMO's needed a monthly fee is true, but these days bandwidth costs/Server costs are nothing, they dont even come close to being a major expanse.

Need proof?
Free WoW private server's: An average server can support up to 500 people on these servers that costs less than $50/month
YouTube: Allows you to upload as much content as you want, again this would be too expansive back in 1998 to support.
Diablo 3: D3 will force you to stay connected 24/7 and will track your Mana/HP items gold etc on the server side, Proof bandwidth is a non issue
 

2xDouble

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ionveau said:
This guys opinion is less valid than mine or your by the fact he plays games to gain income on his channel, so pissing off the SWTOR people will lose him the WoW players from his channel, or people that like wow but dont play but are going to play SWTOR for some reason.
Obviously you don't know Totalbiscuit. He's actually quite vocal about his preferences in his other videos, much like Yahtzee. That was a speech summarizing day 1 of Gamescom to silence whiny trolls on both sides of the "better game" argument.

...as if that ever works. heh.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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Soviet Heavy said:
Republic Fighting Separatists? God, can they not come up with some cool name for an independent league? Like the League of Independence or something?
Ooo I got it. How about "Confederacy of Independent Systems". Definitely the right name to use.
 

Deadyawn

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Jan 25, 2011
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Zhukov said:
Doesn't the group thing get in the way of the conversations?

I'd be pretty miffed if I wanted to ask a character for more story content, only to have one of my colleagues hit the 'just shoot him' option.
It's bioware, I'd be very surprised if I ever saw a just shoot him option.

OT: I don't enjoy the gameplay in many RPGs but I play them for a compelling story. I'm kinda hoping that this game will provide that. Not that fun gameplay wouldn't be nice it's just that I would like to play KOTOR 3. I know it isn't but I can hope.
 

2xDouble

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animehermit said:
That was actually more aimed at the mouthbreathing GW2 elitists than any SWTOR fans.


As for your rant about GW2, well, I'll believe it when I see it, I've had my fill of GW2 previews several of them in fact, and I have yet to see any of what you mentioned. There's still tons of stuff I don't like about the game and Arenanet isn't exactly high up on my "developers I actually like" list.
I'll try not to take that personally... and no it wasn't. There are plenty of douchebags and ignorance on both sides, especially on youtube (which isn't exactly famous for its hospitality anyway), and on Totalbiscuit's channel in particular, especially after declaring his preference for Guild Wars 2.

Everything I said was there. If you played the game and didn't experience what I describe, then I'm sorry you didn't like it; I hope TOR is satisfactory for you. If you haven't, GW2 will still be around if you'd like to see for yourself. Both The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2 are spectacular, and more importantly really fun games. There is room for both, which was TB's point.
 

Nemu

In my hand I hold a key...
Oct 14, 2009
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Darkside360 said:
Nemu said:
Personally, I had a lot of fun in the beta. There are some visual...issues I have with it (desktop/interface is too big, et al), but they're cosmetic issues.

Found a new favorite race to play as well. :D
I believe you just broke the NDA.
Then so has the company itself when they released their promo videos.