Star Wars: TOR Designer Explains BioWare's Death Stance

[LogicNProportion]

If they do these in the way of Force Ghosts, I am going to RAEG like none have RAEG'd before...

 

[mythgraven]

Ahh the Death Penalty arguement. Just one of many arguments argued almost soley for the sake of creating and maintaining a division between the players.

Those who desire to see other people put through the ninth circle of hell in order to qualify as possible helpers...

And those who simply dont have the time to, or refuse to engage in, the idea that an MMO, or online game of ANY kind, is anything other than a game.

The elitists want the game to be "risky" and "dangerous", but then they slave themselves to cookie cutter routines, and only accept partners who have already done the content in question five times. That isnt dangerous. That is, infact, just as mind numbing as pushing colored buttons in sequence. Its not challenging.

And the casuals demand, rightly so, to have equal, unfettered access to games that they for Christs sakes are paying money for. Ive seen the argument that your party members $60 dictates that you must perform to their standards... Ive heard that same argument from my actual boss. The only difference is, he has to pay me.


Like I said. It's just another way for people to mistake online achievement for actual achievement. If I couldnt bemoan the sorry state of the digital world I inhabit, and blame it on those who signed up for it after I did, I might have to do something productive.


Whiskey Echo!!
mythgraven

 

[Therumancer]

Well, I think the relatively penelty free deaths contribute to a lot of the MMO burn out we see going on. An easy death penelty means that people burn through the content pretty quickly. On one hand I can see why it saves frustration, but then again it causes a differant kind of frustration when the player has done everything they wanted to accomplish and simply goes back to a more content-rich game like WoW.

Unless someone somes up with a way to dynamically generate content for the game as players advance their characters, I don't think this is an easy problem to solve.

Truthfully, if I was to ever try and develop an MMORPG, I'd probably want to set death penelties based on the nature of the death. Complicated, but fair. This would allow the game to both handle situations where rapid fire dying is expected, but also be able to provide some fairly strict penelties for other things.

Looking at Old Republic right now, the big question that keeps coming to mind is how long it's going to take to max out a character and see all the content.

I'll also say that I think Devs are behind the curve to some extent, while certain games like the original Everquest and Ultima Online were a bit too strict for the general run of gamers at the time, we're at a point where even the mainstreamers and casual players are becoming pretty genere savvy. You have huge tracts of the community maxxing characters within the first week or two after release, as even the eternal-nubs have some idea what they are doing. Truthfully I think the last thing the community needs is more introductory-level MMORPGs, but rather some intended for higher levels of player advancement. I think even the lowest common human denominator has moved a bit beyond what a lot of MMORPGs are currently providing.

Perhaps my opinion might change at some point, but right now I admit that this sounds like "Old Republic" is going to be a giant graveyard zerg.

 

[Popido]

This game will hurt Bioware. Mark my words.

The thing that Bioware is good at is recycling their old stories all over again and again and again. MMO'sizing this formula is not a good idea.

 

[Exterminas]

So many words, but not one definitive statement.
DEV-Talk resembles politician-talk more and more, because any clear statement could be held against them but many promissing words will stir up the hype.

 

[Kanatatsu]

Death penalty should be losing 10% of your stats plus significant equipment degredation, plus having to get back to your corpse. You can get the 10% stats back by earning experience.

And it keeps compounding, so if you die twice without earning any xp, you are now at 20% stat loss, up to a max of 50%.

Similar to the old Asheron's Call system, which was quite good(minus the item loss).

 

[StriderShinryu]

I hate when an MMO makes you essentially useless for 10 minutes after a death. In that case, I'll often just log out and not bother playing at all... which I suppose fits fine with the MO of your average subscription based MMO.

wow, you poor baby. there should be some extra penalty for respawning at the graveyard. its taking the easy way back to life instead of trecking back to your body.

Anyway, my point is that if the content was challenging enough to kill you in the first place (and, let's be honest, most MMO content isn't really that challenging) then I fail to see the purpose of hitting you with a death debuff on top of that. You already have to travel from the respawn point back to where you died, probably making your way through since respawned enemies on the way and/or restarting an entire instance, but now you have to either do it at a massively reduced power level or wait till the debuff clears. It's nothing but a time sink and it really does nothing to increase the challenge of the game seeing as how most standard death debuffs make it pointless to retry the content right away anyway.

If a game makes it's money off of subscription fees, then it's obvious why the developers would want to keep those time sinks in place. If, however, they are interested in creating interesting and challenging content then time sink death penalties are not something they need to bother with.

 

[Electric Gel]

The game should force you to watch the phantom menace every time you die. That'll teach 'em!

 

[BoogieManFL]

I find it disgustingly amusing every time I see some one crying about the lack a harsh death penalty, and even more so when the say they won't play the game because of it. Good. More bandwidth and monsters for me.

 

[Crimsane]

Long as it doesn't make me pull my soul back to my corpse from Elysium or the SW equivalent using the force (a la Star Destroyer in SWTFU), I'm cool.

"But Crim, that sounds awesome!" You never played SWTFU, did you? It was a boring chore.

 

[spectrenihlus]

The game should force you to watch the phantom menace every time you die. That'll teach 'em!

But that would mean listening to the awesome duel of the fates. That's not much of a punishment.

 

[-Seraph-]

The game should force you to watch the phantom menace every time you die. That'll teach 'em!

Or even worse, the Christmas Special.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

While I certainly understand the desire of some for harsher "death penalties", I prefer the type of approach being suggested by SW:TOR's designers, if for no other reason than death in MMOs can often occur through no fault of the player.

Let's face it - while internet speeds have improved vastly over recent years and connectivity in general has become more robust, the fact remains that lag spikes and other issues can easily cause character deaths - especially in raid/boss encounters that require precision and immediate reaction to prevailing circumstances.

Frankly, I've never quite agreed with the idea that the player needs to be somehow 'punished' for the death of a character. Yes, death should carry a penalty lest it become even more meaningless than the temporary (or even permanent) death of a digital creation already is; however, going overboard and kicking the player in the figurative bahoogies because a lag spike prevented them from getting out of the insta-kill fire zone fast enough doesn't sound like very much fun from the player's perspective.

this. i FUCKING HATE getting raped on while a random spike of lag hits or something, in which your character gets mauled to death and your command to potion up or something didn't reach them in time =\

so yes, i agree with this bioware, thats another +1 for me buying this, but you still have a lot of impressing to do before i buy an mmo subscription, ever.

 

[Electric Gel]

The game should force you to watch the phantom menace every time you die. That'll teach 'em!

But that would mean listening to the awesome duel of the fates. That's not much of a punishment.

It is when the music's accompanied by midichlorians.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Anyway, my point is that if the content was challenging enough to kill you in the first place (and, let's be honest, most MMO content isn't really that challenging) then I fail to see the purpose of hitting you with a death debuff on top of that.

Agreed.

I do see both sides but as someone who has played several MMOs I do think lesser penalties for dying are better, especially as, like StriderShinryu says, if the fight is challenging to that extent then why penalise. And the fight is where the challenge should be anyway.

Harsh penalties aren't fun (games should be fun after all), they're frustrating wastes of time.

Whilst it can potentially make players give more consideration to their actions it can lead to players becoming too conservative, never trying different builds or group set ups unless they know they're guaranteed to work.

All games, including MMOs, should be fun and adventure ultimately, challenge is a great thing but it's a fine line between challenge and frustration - harsh penalties are the latter.

 

[luas_dublin]

The game should force you to watch the phantom menace every time you die. That'll teach 'em!

Nice idea, but that'd never pass human rights conventions in most civilised countries....

 

[Biancaneri]

Maybe there's some impediment that I'm not thinking of, but why can't they implement different death penalties on different servers in order to provide for all potential customers?

 

[Ruairi iliffe]

Hmmm, guess im more the 'Death is a slap in the face and a kick to the quads' kinda guy.

Adores Flashpoint's Get hit you're Frakked, Cheered when seeing New Vegas's Hardcore mode and ohh, been playing EvE for 3+ years....

What can i say, if my heart isnt pumping at a near miss,i find it too easy

 

[hyperdrachen]

Star Wars: TOR Designer Explains BioWare's Death Stance

Death in Star Wars: The Old Republic won't make players take a red lightsaber to their computers.

Certain MMOs like the upcoming Star Wars: The Old Republic [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/previews/8591-Preview-Watch-Your-Back-in-Salem] will not be one of those. Old Republic combat designer Damion Schubert recently took to the BioWare forums to explain why the game won't have an overly harsh death penalty, but said it won't be a "cakewalk" either.

In a forum topic asking BioWare to make death "mean something" in The Old Republic, Schubert wrote that he agrees death should have a "sting." However, the sting should be more like that of a bumblebee, than that of a box jellyfish [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_jellyfish].

BioWare's philosophy for The Old Republic is that harsh death penalties can ruin a game. They can lead to players that only grind through the game on weaker enemies, and that don't take risks on new character builds. They can make it tough for newer players to learn a game's ins and outs, with experienced players never willing to group with them for fear of losing to a boss. If an MMO chooses to make equipment vulnerable after a death, you might as well never give that equipment out, because Schubert doesn't think most players would risk bringing it along.

He feels a manageable death penalty also allows designers to make encounters more challenging, because players can try over and over without getting frustrated. Well, without getting too frustrated anyway.

Schubert emphasizes that BioWare does not want The Old Republic to be soft on those that die, but isn't planning to remove a limb every time a player accidentally walks backwards into a Sarlaac pit. I'm the type of gamer that can appreciate both kinds of systems, and with the mainstream appeal that Old Republic will likely have, I think it's smart to implement a death system into the MMO that won't have players turning to the dark side out of anger. I'm expecting something similar to World of Warcraft [http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Battle-Chest-Mac/dp/B000H96C9M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1296329079&sr=8-2] where players simply have to get back to their corpses, but perhaps molded into a more Star Wars-like system.

Source: VG247 [http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5289463#edit5289463]

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I have a suggestion for a rewrite of this article. With all content preserved.

"TOR Devs claim thier death penalty will be juuuuuuuust right" -hyperdrachen