Starcraft 2: Crap....you will buy it anways.

[snow]

-snip-

I don't think you realise what a big deal Starcraft is in Korea. If Blizzard brought out a substandard game on a substandard platform it would be a prelude to war! (No really, it's a really freaking big thing in Korea) Blizzard never make 'bad games' in the way Activision or EA do. They might make games you do not like, and they might make mistakes with their patches (Item level overload in WoW anyone?)but they put a LOT of effort into their games and test them a ridiculous amount.

The reasons they removed lan are copyright and match logging reasons but it doesn't stop you playing with friends. You can invite them to matches just like a lan but it's done online. Not really unreasonable.

Furthermore they have Bronze, Copper, Silver, Gold and Platinum leages. Plat is pro only, bronze is for the people who don't know they're pylons from their medvacs. It takes a very long time to progress up through these levels and they 5 recruitment matches at the start decide which one you belong in by analysing your play apparnetly (not done this but it doesn't sound like an exact science so I forsee many noobs getting put in silver or gold and getting beaten down)

Only 5? I thought it was 10? Did they decide to bump it down or something?

 

[Veleste]

It might be 10 now, I stopped playing Beta after I lost 41 matches in a row cause I was placed in gold league after winning my 5 starter matches and I had never played the game before them. I stuck with it as long as I could but there's only so many ass kickings you can take before it gets depressing.

They probably upped it to 10 for that very reason actually. 5 isn't enough to gauge your skills.

 

[snow]

It might be 10 now, I stopped playing Beta after I lost 41 matches in a row cause I was placed in gold league after winning my 5 starter matches and I had never played the game before them. I stuck with it as long as I could but there's only so many ass kickings you can take before it gets depressing.

They probably upped it to 10 for that very reason actually. 5 isn't enough to gauge your skills.

Yeah, I was a bit worried that they dumped it down to 5 for that very reason myself. If this all took place a while ago, it may seem and I may be wrong since I'm trying to piece things together here. It seems that it may have been 5 to start, they upped it to 10 after some testing/complaints whatever, and reset everything to give everyone another chance after being misplaced. Then of course I'm pretty sure without 100% of a doubt that they'll reset again the day of launch.

I remember Huskystarcraft mentioning that they reset the boards in one of his commentaries. I believe it was the one where he was showing everyone what the Beginners League was about. Which after doing a bit of research was put up on March 26th. (I happen to have the channel up as I am typing this)

Although this may all be pretty useless info for you, this is just me trying to piece things together considering I didn't beta.

 

[AllLagNoFrag]

The fact that SC2 is so competitive and is pretty much a sport for some where most RTS players who are at a decent level and upwards play just shows how good an RTS it is. No, I wont buy Starcraft 2 if it is crap but, it isn't imo. It has a good story campaign, awesome competitive multiplayer and just about the most balanced RTS you could find (theres a counter for everything).

What Im trying to say is that SC2 is such a good game that naturally, it attracts the best rts players. Its that good to the point where as you say thread starter, people that play have specific race-timed builds with their high APMs even at Beta phase. Then again, this also breeds the rejection towards newbs to rts or the game itself.

This is why I like fps games. The concept with pretty much all fps games are the same. If you see how badly a person will do totally new to starcraft 2 online compared to how a newb to a game like modern warfare 2 will, you see the diffrence of newb friendly-ness between fps and rts.

Also, starcraft 2 is a banana insane polished/sleek/smooth rts.

An rts this popular, it definitely did not ruin chances of a sequel, just has a high newb-rejection level right from the start.

 

[Volafortis]

My level of bad at RTS ladder gaming is legendary, ad I still am in Gold League (which is mid-level) on SC2, because of the practice I've gotten. The matchmaking system will be balanced, at least on release, because not everyone will be ungodly levels of pro. After a few games, you'll quickly be competent at it. Starting out in the beta, I was a former WC3 player who could barely beat Normal AI, with no SC1 experience outside of the campaign (I also beat BW's campaign)

I now can trounce the Hard AI on SC2 with no trouble, and can beat any race except Terran on Very Hard.
The AI gets extra resources on Very Hard and Insane and can churn out a large MMM ball unusually fast, and my micro isn't at the level where I can tech quickly while forcefielding my ramp to hold off an MMM ball, quite yet, Because I'm a Protosss player, and my only early game counter is sentry forcefield to hold them off, and pelt them with ranged until I get Psi Storm or Collosi.

 

[Wolfram23]

After participating in the Beta, comparing the old with the new, and checking out the new battle.net 2.0, a thought came to me.

This new Starcraft isn't made for me. It is made for the professionals, the ones who perfected build orders, who do APM in the 70 and 80s, who have timed out builds for the race they play.

Not that I hate it. I think it is a fine game and will probably do better than the original just because its Starcraft.

And therein lies the problem.
Starcraft 2 and with it battlenet 2.0 could both be absolutely terrible, and a bunch of people would still go after it. Which brings me to the darkest thought in all of this.

They probably don't care if it sucks. They don't care if you can't have LAN, don't care if you are not a professional and can't really do online, and don't care that they have effectively isolated each nation to its own server, meaning it is next to impossible to play with friends in other countries.

They will get paid for the game by a bunch of people, and that is all that they want.

The discussion here is simple. Do you think that possibly the popularity of Starcraft has possibly already ruined the sequals? And what do you think of the lack of LAN, the compartmentalization of servers, and hell, while we are at it, the game in general?

I'm curious to see what you people think. Perhaps I'm just being a pessimist about the whole deal, but I do wonder what other people think of this.

I'm not reading every post here, as it's probably just a bunch of trolls and flamers.

My 2 cents on the OP, is that that's why there's leagues. This way if you're not good, you can still play people of your callibre and not worry about being bumfucked every game. Also, Use Map Settings games. These are for casual fun. Otherwise, you can still play single player and skirmishes vs the AI. There's plenty in the game for those who aren't necessarily skilled at the game. Yes, it's meant to be an e-sport since that's how the original became so hugely popular (particularily in Korea).

As for LAN, I don't care in the least. Plus, given the amount of bitching there's no way they won't eventually implement it. It's the best way for the game to be played competitively (tournament style) so of course they will add it.

Other than that, IMO the game is awesome and I can't wait to get it.

 

[snow]

-snip-

I'm not reading every post here, as it's probably just a bunch of trolls and flamers.

Actually this discussion has been very, very mature for the most part.

 

[Keava]

*snipped*

You see, thing is, there is no reason for B.Net2.0 existing at this point. It offers nothing that previous renditions did not offer, even more so, B.Net2.0 offers so much less. Oh, sorry, it integrates Facebook into the game. How amazing. Something i always wanted. Sorry, but apart for looking pretty, it has no functionality whatsoever. It's clunky, cluttered, flashy, useless and not really intuitive. Simply put - bad design.
Why do we have to wait for functions that we did have previously?

There was plenty of constructive criticism on the official and unofficial forums, pushed back by 10 times more whining about non existent balance issues, because majority could not comprehend the basics of online gameplay. Problem is Blizzard avoided answering to such feedback, giving no indication that they care.

Original Starcraft gained it's momentum around BroodWars release, seems like with SC2 we will have to wait till Zerg expansion to see the similar result. As much as i do enjoy the core gameplay of the game, i am not impressed considering its been 12 years since first StarCraft.

 

[UnusualStranger]

You really haven't used BNET 2.0...

Feature lacking? Sure, a bit. Unusable? Far from it. Works just fine to get you into games. Less than user friendly for custom game support (But there are tons of custom games so it is hard to keep things unrestricted without it being cluttered).

It isn't completely unusable. I did not say that. But not being user friendly is a huge problem. And getting into the games isn't a problem, its that people who were doing fine just randomly disconnect. I'm not sure if it is them or what, but playing a few many player games, someone always seems to drop.

I've never once been disconnected or gotten over 100 ping from the beta, other than when the servers went down for maintenance. Perhaps it's your location or router/firewall settings.

The custom game filters they have planned changes for.

I agree, you shouldn't have to crack it, but I don't mind cracking it, either. It takes all of ten seconds and won't be hurting anyone since I'm buying the product legit anyway.

Again, their DRM and anti-piracy for this game consist of no LAN. That's it. They could be adding any number of restrictive DRM methods to the game, so I'm fine with this minimalistic measure.

But the thing is it won't. If someone can crack the game to get in LAN, it can certainly be cracked more. Piracy is not really a discussion I want to get into, because its a bad discussion. No LAN is taking away from everyone, and POSSIBLY delaying pirates.

However, there shouldn't be a filter to begin with. And perhaps it is something in my firewall and the like. I'll check it out in a bit, and see if it changes things.

Of course it's all hush hush. If they revealed every single detail about a game, there would be no surprises for us to have when the game comes out. If those surprises are good or bad, we will just have to wait and see.

Have others experienced the terrible connections and disconnections from 2.0? I just talked to a friend of mine who was playing beta and he said he had no problem with it. 0.o;

I'm not asking for all the details! I just want some information. I've heard lots of boasting that it will be "A completely new and Unique experience." but otherwise have heard very little. Claiming to be amazing, then turning out lackluster is something that happens a lot in....well, everything.

As for the connection problems, maybe its just crappy internet on my end or something. There is no way I can really test it.....but my brother has been dropped as well some of his team in a few matches, so I can only go off of that.

The reasons they removed lan are copyright and match logging reasons but it doesn't stop you playing with friends. You can invite them to matches just like a lan but it's done online. Not really unreasonable.

Furthermore they have Bronze, Copper, Silver, Gold and Platinum leages. Plat is pro only, bronze is for the people who don't know they're pylons from their medvacs. It takes a very long time to progress up through these levels and they 5 recruitment matches at the start decide which one you belong in by analysing your play apparnetly (not done this but it doesn't sound like an exact science so I forsee many noobs getting put in silver or gold and getting beaten down)

However, with LAN missing, you miss the point I noted earlier. If Blizzard servers hiccup, or go down, or need maintenence, and you want to play a game with a friend in the same room as you, guess what? You can't. Same thing with Local Tournaments. Your schedule can be royally screwed with because if blizzard has a problem online, you can't play with anyone else. Even if they are two feet away from you.

And I know about the leagues and recruitment matches, but as another person posted here, what if you do awesome on them? You get placed in a high league, but you really are not as good as the games judged you. I am in the lowest damned league, but then again, I had no idea how fast the game was.

I now can trounce the Hard AI on SC2 with no trouble, and can beat any race except Terran on Very Hard.

Well, truth be told, the AI in this game is actually quite.....terrible. Having played the original, and made some maps myself, I could set up some triggers which made the computer impossible. Also, there are designs of AI that are actually insane. And I mean insane. What is the point of an Insane difficultly if it really isn't?

 

[UnusualStranger]

I'm not reading every post here, as it's probably just a bunch of trolls and flamers.

Hey, this is a very valid, good natured discussion! Have a little faith!

My 2 cents on the OP, is that that's why there's leagues. This way if you're not good, you can still play people of your callibre and not worry about being bumfucked every game. Also, Use Map Settings games. These are for casual fun. Otherwise, you can still play single player and skirmishes vs the AI. There's plenty in the game for those who aren't necessarily skilled at the game. Yes, it's meant to be an e-sport since that's how the original became so hugely popular (particularily in Korea).

As for LAN, I don't care in the least. Plus, given the amount of bitching there's no way they won't eventually implement it. It's the best way for the game to be played competitively (tournament style) so of course they will add it.

Other than that, IMO the game is awesome and I can't wait to get it.

But as also has been discussed in this thread, Use Map Settings is not getting the love and care it deserves. I get the feeling that quite a few players are not going to be on Starcraft 2 for Ladder matches all the time. And you call this an E-Sport, but I think that is part of the problem. Starcraft 1 became an E-sport because it was good, not because it was made to be one. Trying to force it to be more Sportish is not what should be done to a game to appeal to a wider audience.

And implementation later? Why the hell don't they do it now? It would get quite a bit of hate off their back I'm sure, and remove one of the bigger concerns from the table. Its just stupid on their part to not do anything about it.

 

[Wolfram23]

But as also has been discussed in this thread, Use Map Settings is not getting the love and care it deserves. I get the feeling that quite a few players are not going to be on Starcraft 2 for Ladder matches all the time. And you call this an E-Sport, but I think that is part of the problem. Starcraft 1 became an E-sport because it was good, not because it was made to be one. Trying to force it to be more Sportish is not what should be done to a game to appeal to a wider audience.

And implementation later? Why the hell don't they do it now? It would get quite a bit of hate off their back I'm sure, and remove one of the bigger concerns from the table. Its just stupid on their part to not do anything about it.

Ok, but this info is also only based off a beta version. For one, UMS games take a while to catch on because, well, first people need to make the maps and then people need to play them and start making their own ums games with those maps to make them catch on and grow. In original SC I played a ton more UMS games (paintball, defence games, smash tv) than I did regular matches and I don't think I ever played a ladder game.

So far, I've played probably 20 or 30 games in SC2 all of which have been 1v1 or 2v2 and I've quite enjoyed it. But certainly when the retail game releases I'll give UMS more of a try, and probably even try my hand at making some levels (loved the SC editor).

As for LAN, maybe I'm just uninformed but not having it in the beta sort of makes sense, since I'm sure Blizz really wants to try and stress test Battle.net as much as possible. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if LAN is included in the retail release. If you know for certain it's not, I'd like to read about it.

 

[UnusualStranger]

[
Ok, but this info is also only based off a beta version. For one, UMS games take a while to catch on because, well, first people need to make the maps and then people need to play them and start making their own ums games with those maps to make them catch on and grow. In original SC I played a ton more UMS games (paintball, defence games, smash tv) than I did regular matches and I don't think I ever played a ladder game.

So far, I've played probably 20 or 30 games in SC2 all of which have been 1v1 or 2v2 and I've quite enjoyed it. But certainly when the retail game releases I'll give UMS more of a try, and probably even try my hand at making some levels (loved the SC editor).

As for LAN, maybe I'm just uninformed but not having it in the beta sort of makes sense, since I'm sure Blizz really wants to try and stress test Battle.net as much as possible. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if LAN is included in the retail release. If you know for certain it's not, I'd like to read about it.

Yes, I do keep in mind this is a Beta.

However, have you had a chance to look at the editor? It is very mean, very clunky, and downright complex. Also, Blizzard has word filters in place for maps. WORD FILTERS. Some Racist, and other innocent words are bing filtered out. Why the hell is that even there?

Also, there is right now an upload limit on maps, for both size and amount. This is worrisome in itself. A limit on how many custom games you can upload, and how much can be in them? Again, its just a Beta, but such limitations being prepared already is not a thing to be confident about, even in a beta.

I used the original Editor as well, but this new one is really really.....complex to me. It is not as simple as triggers and placing terrain. There is just....a mess right now. Hopefully it was just a quick test, and they will straighten everything out.

As for LAN....Blizzard announced its intent a while ago that it has no plans to include LAN.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92818-Fans-Petition-For-StarCraft-II-LAN-Blizzard-Responds

And also...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92748-Update-StarCraft-II-Will-Not-Support-LAN

They think their servers will never have problems. They think that everyone will always want to connect to the internet to play with friends. They also don't apparently care much for Gaming Cafe's either, cause what is the point of all those computers close if you just connect to the internet anyway?

 

[Wolfram23]

Yes, I do keep in mind this is a Beta.

However, have you had a chance to look at the editor? It is very mean, very clunky, and downright complex. Also, Blizzard has word filters in place for maps. WORD FILTERS. Some Racist, and other innocent words are bing filtered out. Why the hell is that even there?

Also, there is right now an upload limit on maps, for both size and amount. This is worrisome in itself. A limit on how many custom games you can upload, and how much can be in them? Again, its just a Beta, but such limitations being prepared already is not a thing to be confident about, even in a beta.

I used the original Editor as well, but this new one is really really.....complex to me. It is not as simple as triggers and placing terrain. There is just....a mess right now. Hopefully it was just a quick test, and they will straighten everything out.

As for LAN....Blizzard announced its intent a while ago that it has no plans to include LAN.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92818-Fans-Petition-For-StarCraft-II-LAN-Blizzard-Responds

And also...
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92748-Update-StarCraft-II-Will-Not-Support-LAN

They think their servers will never have problems. They think that everyone will always want to connect to the internet to play with friends. They also don't apparently care much for Gaming Cafe's either, cause what is the point of all those computers close if you just connect to the internet anyway?

Hmm ok, well I can see where the issue is with LAN. For me it's a non issue but yeah that's something that you would expect to see.

I haven't had a chance to use the new editor yet, it's unfortunate to hear it's complex. Word filtering the map names isn't a big issue, but that is very odd about the limits of size and how many. That's actually really shitty.

However, the topic at hand - or at least the original topic - is as to if the game is crap and if we'll buy it. On that regards, I firmly believe the game is very very good and will certainly buy it. It's a bit unfortunate to not have all these EXTRA features, but we'll still get a wicked awesome core game.

 

[UnusualStranger]

Hmm ok, well I can see where the issue is with LAN. For me it's a non issue but yeah that's something that you would expect to see.

I haven't had a chance to use the new editor yet, it's unfortunate to hear it's complex. Word filtering the map names isn't a big issue, but that is very odd about the limits of size and how many. That's actually really shitty.

However, the topic at hand - or at least the original topic - is as to if the game is crap and if we'll buy it. On that regards, I firmly believe the game is very very good and will certainly buy it. It's a bit unfortunate to not have all these EXTRA features, but we'll still get a wicked awesome core game.

Word filtering is annoying as hell. What do you mean that I can't use this map because I used the word, Hell?

And you bring up the exact point I am making. These are NOT extra features. Chat function is NOT an extra. LAN is NOT an extra. I do NOT want to be able to connect my Facebook. They are taking things that were there away, and still selling it as if it is better.

That is why I made the title what it is. They are taking away things, and turning it into crap, but people will get it because its Starcraft 2, and its going to be awesome, because its Blizzard. That is a lot of assumptions, and I don't like doing that. It often leads to a lot of disappointment.

 

[elvor0]

Hmm ok, well I can see where the issue is with LAN. For me it's a non issue but yeah that's something that you would expect to see.

I haven't had a chance to use the new editor yet, it's unfortunate to hear it's complex. Word filtering the map names isn't a big issue, but that is very odd about the limits of size and how many. That's actually really shitty.

However, the topic at hand - or at least the original topic - is as to if the game is crap and if we'll buy it. On that regards, I firmly believe the game is very very good and will certainly buy it. It's a bit unfortunate to not have all these EXTRA features, but we'll still get a wicked awesome core game.

Word filtering is annoying as hell. What do you mean that I can't use this map because I used the word, Hell?

And you bring up the exact point I am making. These are NOT extra features. Chat function is NOT an extra. LAN is NOT an extra. I do NOT want to be able to connect my Facebook. They are taking things that were there away, and still selling it as if it is better.

That is why I made the title what it is. They are taking away things, and turning it into crap, but people will get it because its Starcraft 2, and its going to be awesome, because its Blizzard. That is a lot of assumptions, and I don't like doing that. It often leads to a lot of disappointment.

No, because the gameplay is not crap, as everyone in this can attest to, taking away LAN is a large annoyance, but they said they were going to enable it as long as everyone had a internet connection, this is still really irritating, you're right LAN should'nt be extra, but taking it away does not make the game itself crap, and you know as well as I do the gameplay is not crap, I'm not amazingly good at it, but the Beta is tight and quite well made, any problems that arise you know Blizzard will fix it in due time, Blizzard have never made a bad game, so the assumption that it will be good is a well placed one.

 

[Wolfram23]

Well, Unusual Stranger, I certainly see where you're coming from.

But for me, these features are extra. I play the game for the gameplay. Chat is no big deal. You can chat once you're in a party, and in SC1 the only time I chatted was when my friends and I specifically got into our own chat room, which is basically the same as just getting into a party. LAN I also never used. I've been to 1 LAN party in my entire life and that was 8 of us playing Unreal Tournament 2003. Not sure about the Facebook thing, first I've heard of that. I won't use it but yeah, hm. PS3 added FB support for trophies which I did use for a bit, but that got annoying fast. So sounds like a very big MEH feature. Obviously I'd rather LAN just for the sake of having it over FB support.

Just comes down to expectations. You expected the game to be just like the first... only better. I had no expectations and am therefore pleased with the current implementation, that I've seen and used. You have raised good and fair points, and in particular for me the editor is of concern. I'll have to open it up tonight and see what you mean. But still, I'm going to play the game for the campaign, and to play with friends online. The rest, to me, is just gravy.