Starcraft 2: Crap....you will buy it anways.

[RadiusXd]

After participating in the Beta, comparing the old with the new, and checking out the new battle.net 2.0, a thought came to me.

This new Starcraft isn't made for me. It is made for the professionals, the ones who perfected build orders, who do APM in the 70 and 80s, who have timed out builds for the race they play.

Not that I hate it. I think it is a fine game and will probably do better than the original just because its Starcraft.

And therein lies the problem.
Starcraft 2 and with it battlenet 2.0 could both be absolutely terrible, and a bunch of people would still go after it. Which brings me to the darkest thought in all of this.

They probably don't care if it sucks. They don't care if you can't have LAN, don't care if you are not a professional and can't really do online, and don't care that they have effectively isolated each nation to its own server, meaning it is next to impossible to play with friends in other countries.

They will get paid for the game by a bunch of people, and that is all that they want.

The discussion here is simple. Do you think that possibly the popularity of Starcraft has possibly already ruined the sequals? And what do you think of the lack of LAN, the compartmentalization of servers, and hell, while we are at it, the game in general?

I'm curious to see what you people think. Perhaps I'm just being a pessimist about the whole deal, but I do wonder what other people think of this.

Blizzard usually treats its series like cherished children, if they were going to make a substandard game and just profit marginally of that, that wuld have done so years ago. you can play with friends, they will open up intercontinental online a couple months after release, and the custom map editor looks to be far more versatile then the originals.
Not to meantion the fact it will organise you by skill level and keep track of your progress, so you can have games that are both challenging and within reason, no matter the skill level.

 

[UnusualStranger]

No, because the gameplay is not crap, as everyone in this can attest to, taking away LAN is a large annoyance, but they said they were going to enable it as long as everyone had a internet connection, this is still really irritating, you're right LAN should'nt be extra, but taking it away does not make the game itself crap, and you know as well as I do the gameplay is not crap, I'm not amazingly good at it, but the Beta is tight and quite well made, any problems that arise you know Blizzard will fix it in due time, Blizzard have never made a bad game, so the assumption that it will be good is a well placed one.

Very true. The gameplay itself is not ruined. (as far as we know...), and it is overall a fine game.

It is just that they have taken away things,(LAN being one of them, see above links.) and are still claiming their service is absolutely amazing. Setting limits, word filters, and not really showing off what made the other games last so long(Use map settings, Custom Games, whatever), has me concerned. You can be very content with your assumptions, but I am not so easy to convince, especially when it comes to a business.

@Wolframe01:
Well, then I guess it all comes down to perspective then. I find a lot of the "Newer" things they are adding to not really be all that great for what they are removing.

But again, just different points of view. I can understand we agree to disagree.

 

[Cliffie]

Personally I think that StarCraft 2 is a ton of fun however I'm not that big of a fan of a lot of the stuff they implemented with BattleNet 2.0. First off, what's up with not being able to play with people all over the world!? That's just retarded. My second gripe is the lack of a chat, I can't see why not. Sure it's spammy, but if people don't want to use it they don't have to. Lastly, I think that playing with larger groups of people (say 10+, or so if you have a LAN) is a bith if you want to create tournaments or the like. Then there's the LAN thing, which obviously sucks. I do understand why they're doing it though: Piracy. However what this basically means is that, once again, legitimate customers have to take it from behind because some people refuse to pay.

To me, most of this stuff is really minor. I rarely play with more then 3 friends at the same time, I don't really have anyone outside of Europe I want to play with nor do I chat a lot... but I despise the fact that, if I wanted to, I can't do any of these things. I'll get the game, I think it's great... but it's not without flaws.

 

[TheBaron87]

lmfao!!!! Here I thought New Coke was an actual thing that I had to look up! Major d'uh on my part. Sorry about that! Meh, I'm just glad that they're not doing it, regardless of it being a possibly being a scheme or not.

I just don't understand what would be the benefit of them doing this if they did set it up this way on purpose. It's not going to bring them anymore fans, and it's apparent by your reaction that, even if it was set up to get more approval, there will still be some people who aren't going to let them off the hook that easily. So if anything, by stating it was a set-up, it didn't help them at all despite getting their name put in the news twice.

Well most people wouldn't think twice about what Blizz was up to, they'd just be grateful to have their old way back and think of Blizzard as a company that listens to fans. How many World of Warcraft subscribers do you think actually read any sort of intelligent debate or critical journalism about WoW? Anyway, I can't say for sure if this was all planned or a scheme or whatever, but the most compelling evidence for me is the fact Blizzard took it back so easily. You would think they would have been prepared for all the backlash. I refuse to believe they're so stupid they didn't see this coming. I can easily believe their playerbase is stupid enough not to see what's happening to them though, so assuming Blizzard is taking advantage of their customers is sort of the default. It is still an assumption, but it makes sense to me.

Lol there actually was a new Coke. Around the time Pepsi first debuted, Coke found that a lot of people preferred their taste. So they created a sweeter Coke which did incredibly well, better than Pepsi, in taste tests. Problem was, they were just that: taste tests. One to two sips.

When they released the new Coke in mass market, people hated it because nobody could handle drinking a whole can. It was too sweet for reasonable amounts of consumption. So many people hated it that they reverted back to the Coke we know today, which is why it's now called "Coca-Cola Classic." They've been competing comfortably with Pepsi ever since.

But yea, they didn't switch formulas to gain attention on purpose. They truly thought the new formula was better because it was outperforming Pepsi in taste tests.

I realize that whether the actual New Coke was really a scheme or not was never proven (and probably never will be), but this sort of marketing ploy has been equated to New Coke whenever I've seen it come up. Sort of like how American Indians weren't actually Indians but we kept calling them that after we found out because it stuck.

Anyhow, I don't want to derail the thread but there's too much here to read and there seem to be a few others with good heads, so we can end this side discussion now.

Then there's the LAN thing, which obviously sucks. I do understand why they're doing it though: Piracy.

The removal of LAN has NOTHING to do with piracy. Pirates will easily figure out how to add LAN back into the game. It's about control. Removing LAN forces legitimate tournament hosters to play on B.net, where Blizzard is completely within their rights to stop the tournament or force ads on them. If a tournament attempts to play on pirated LAN, Blizzard can shut them down for pirating. They know removing LAN won't stop pirates from adding it back in, they just want to monopolize e-sports and they know the average user is to stupid to realize what's going on or why it matters and therefore won't complain. Removing LAN lost Blizzard maybe a couple thousand customers out of millions, and got them control of the tournament scene. They win.

Blizzard have never made a bad game

Burning Crusade.

 

[snow]

-snip-

Well most people wouldn't think twice about what Blizz was up to, they'd just be grateful to have their old way back and think of Blizzard as a company that listens to fans. How many World of Warcraft subscribers do you think actually read any sort of intelligent debate or critical journalism about WoW? Anyway, I can't say for sure if this was all planned or a scheme or whatever, but the most compelling evidence for me is the fact Blizzard took it back so easily. You would think they would have been prepared for all the backlash. I refuse to believe they're so stupid they didn't see this coming. I can easily believe their playerbase is stupid enough not to see what's happening to them though, so assuming Blizzard is taking advantage of their customers is sort of the default. It is still an assumption, but it makes sense to me.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Blizzard in this matter, and I'm not saying that you're flat out wrong, because it could go either way in this scenario considering that we don't know what goes on inside Blizzard. I'm just rather confused as to why they would plan to do something like this. It just seems rather pointless in the long run.

Fans of Blizzard were planning on buying Blizzard products regardless, but now that they have done this, sure the majority will go yay and head straight to the stores opening day, but now there will be a small hinder in sales because of it.

Sure the amount of sales are still going to heavily outweigh the losses from this procedure, it's still money lost that Blizzard would have got if they didn't announce this idea.

So if it was a plan all along, it was an utterly stupid one. I just don't see how Blizzard could gain more fans this way. If anything, those that weren't fans of the company are probably even more skeptical about it than they were before.

Simply put, Blizzard was dumb as hell to even think of Real ID, and if it was a plan all along? They were being severely brain damaged. There's not much you can do to make a loyal dog more loyal.

 

[TheBaron87]

snip

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Blizzard in this matter, and I'm not saying that you're flat out wrong, because it could go either way in this scenario considering that we don't know what goes on inside Blizzard. I'm just rather confused as to why they would plan to do something like this. It just seems rather pointless in the long run.

Fans of Blizzard were planning on buying Blizzard products regardless, but now that they have done this, sure the majority will go yay and head straight to the stores opening day, but now there will be a small hinder in sales because of it.

Sure the amount of sales are still going to heavily outweigh the losses from this procedure, it's still money lost that Blizzard would have got if they didn't announce this idea.

So if it was a plan all along, it was an utterly stupid one. I just don't see how Blizzard could gain more fans this way. If anything, those that weren't fans of the company are probably even more skeptical about it than they were before.

Simply put, Blizzard was dumb as hell to even think of Real ID, and if it was a plan all along? They were being severely brain damaged. There's not much you can do to make a loyal dog more loyal.

Well it's not about fans, think of all the sites that reported the RealID story as gaming news instead of specifically Starcraft 2 or Blizzard news. Imagine how many people that don't normally follow Blizzard news saw it, and then most likely saw all the same sites reporting that Blizzard took back their decision. At the very least it's getting Blizzard's name out there in a way that is relevant to people outside their fanbase. It's also reasserting the loyalty of the majority of their "fans," which will keep WoW subscriptions active.

Over 9 million people play WoW. How many heard about this whole fiasco? Now how many do you imagine read sites like The Escapist? People like us are drops in an ocean, the average player would put more thought into whether to roll on a green drop than this issue. The fact is people like that really DO need constant reinforcement to stay in the game. A very small minority is dedicated and will stick with a game years after it's dead, like the people still playing EQ or FF11, but probably more than 90% of WoW players could quit at any moment, and Blizzard needs to constantly appeal to them with new content and a constant dumbing down to keep them in the game.

And no, they're not dumb to think of Real ID. It's really very brilliant for them. It sucks for us, but that's business. How much can you get out of the customer without them realizing it or caring? Forcing real names to be posted would have given them a TON of control, and even if it didn't work they can always spin it so they look like they're on our side.

 

[Volafortis]

snip

The AI is simply predictable, which is one of the biggest issues with an AI, ever. The main thing is, I can only barely beat terran on VH because the unit composition comes too early because of the extra resources. The AI has a strong first push, but if you hold it off, the AI is a pushover.

 

[UnusualStranger]

The AI is simply predictable, which is one of the biggest issues with an AI, ever. The main thing is, I can only barely beat terran on VH because the unit composition comes too early because of the extra resources. The AI has a strong first push, but if you hold it off, the AI is a pushover.

Exactly the problem with all AIs.....Except the Modder designed ones. Have you ever seen some of the meanest AIs designed for Starcraft 1? They are.....neigh unbeatable. The really good ones anyway. They take advantage of all their resources, and are absolute terrors to behold.

 

[elvor0]

lmfao!!!! Here I thought New Coke was an actual thing that I had to look up! Major d'uh on my part. Sorry about that! Meh, I'm just glad that they're not doing it, regardless of it being a possibly being a scheme or not.

I just don't understand what would be the benefit of them doing this if they did set it up this way on purpose. It's not going to bring them anymore fans, and it's apparent by your reaction that, even if it was set up to get more approval, there will still be some people who aren't going to let them off the hook that easily. So if anything, by stating it was a set-up, it didn't help them at all despite getting their name put in the news twice.

Well most people wouldn't think twice about what Blizz was up to, they'd just be grateful to have their old way back and think of Blizzard as a company that listens to fans. How many World of Warcraft subscribers do you think actually read any sort of intelligent debate or critical journalism about WoW? Anyway, I can't say for sure if this was all planned or a scheme or whatever, but the most compelling evidence for me is the fact Blizzard took it back so easily. You would think they would have been prepared for all the backlash. I refuse to believe they're so stupid they didn't see this coming. I can easily believe their playerbase is stupid enough not to see what's happening to them though, so assuming Blizzard is taking advantage of their customers is sort of the default. It is still an assumption, but it makes sense to me.

Lol there actually was a new Coke. Around the time Pepsi first debuted, Coke found that a lot of people preferred their taste. So they created a sweeter Coke which did incredibly well, better than Pepsi, in taste tests. Problem was, they were just that: taste tests. One to two sips.

When they released the new Coke in mass market, people hated it because nobody could handle drinking a whole can. It was too sweet for reasonable amounts of consumption. So many people hated it that they reverted back to the Coke we know today, which is why it's now called "Coca-Cola Classic." They've been competing comfortably with Pepsi ever since.

But yea, they didn't switch formulas to gain attention on purpose. They truly thought the new formula was better because it was outperforming Pepsi in taste tests.

I realize that whether the actual New Coke was really a scheme or not was never proven (and probably never will be), but this sort of marketing ploy has been equated to New Coke whenever I've seen it come up. Sort of like how American Indians weren't actually Indians but we kept calling them that after we found out because it stuck.

Anyhow, I don't want to derail the thread but there's too much here to read and there seem to be a few others with good heads, so we can end this side discussion now.

Then there's the LAN thing, which obviously sucks. I do understand why they're doing it though: Piracy.

The removal of LAN has NOTHING to do with piracy. Pirates will easily figure out how to add LAN back into the game. It's about control. Removing LAN forces legitimate tournament hosters to play on B.net, where Blizzard is completely within their rights to stop the tournament or force ads on them. If a tournament attempts to play on pirated LAN, Blizzard can shut them down for pirating. They know removing LAN won't stop pirates from adding it back in, they just want to monopolize e-sports and they know the average user is to stupid to realize what's going on or why it matters and therefore won't complain. Removing LAN lost Blizzard maybe a couple thousand customers out of millions, and got them control of the tournament scene. They win.

Blizzard have never made a bad game

Burning Crusade.

Oh come on Burning Crusade was great, sure Karazhan was a bit, okay VERY trash filled but the encounters were good, they were CHALLENGING but it wasn't bad by any stretch.

 

[Veleste]

The blizzard servers are very rarely down. Even world of warcraft has a 95% uptime and that supports 11 million players with a high volume of 24/7 traffic. The starcraft servers will not be as heavily taxed as the Warcraft ones so I imagine the up time will be closer to 99%, only coming down for maintenance and patches and to be fair, the benefits far outweight the cons.

Starcraft was heavily pirated, modded and cheated on cause of the lan capabilities last time around, also if you only play on lan and never connect to the net - which many did - bug fixing, exploit removing and balancing patches couldn't be applied.

If you want to play a game with the man next to you, play chess, this is the future and gaming is online now for many good reasons.

 

[TheBaron87]

Oh come on Burning Crusade was great, sure Karazhan was a bit, okay VERY trash filled but the encounters were good, they were CHALLENGING but it wasn't bad by any stretch.

All I know is I played from a month after launch up to level 60 and was in one of the top raiding guilds at the time (Violent Tendencies on Durotan Horde) doing regular MC and AQ raids and such. TBC came out, I bought it, paid for my first month, and quit before the month was over in disgust.

Having Blood Elves shoved onto us was bad enough, dropping greens better than epics within the first hour on preschooler quests was even worse, but no more 40-man raids? Screw Blizzard.

 

[snow]

Oh come on Burning Crusade was great, sure Karazhan was a bit, okay VERY trash filled but the encounters were good, they were CHALLENGING but it wasn't bad by any stretch.

All I know is I played from a month after launch up to level 60 and was in one of the top raiding guilds at the time (Violent Tendencies on Durotan Horde) doing regular MC and AQ raids and such. TBC came out, I bought it, paid for my first month, and quit before the month was over in disgust.

Having Blood Elves shoved onto us was bad enough, dropping greens better than epics within the first hour on preschooler quests was even worse, but no more 40-man raids? Screw Blizzard.

I have to agree with you on this one, I miss the good ol' days when WoW didn't have any expansions... *Sigh*

I have noticed something about this thread though. The thread is about Starcraft, and we have all talked about about the lack of LAN, and b.net 2.0 flaws, but besides one players distaste for the new units that SC2 has to offer, no one has really complained about the gameplay. Atleast not from recent memory anyway.

Well, I do recall some one saying they shouldn't make a game for tournament use, but I feels that falls into the whole casual vs hardcore argument. Which as I've stated before in several posts on this thread that Blizzard has taken several steps with matchmaking and the Beginners League to try to make this one more casual friendly than the previous. I believe that argument falls flat.

So if anything. What's everyone's thoughts on the actual gameplay? Anything they changed or added that stood out for you or didn't like?

 

[Ph33nix]

when sc:2 is down to $20 with its expansions i will for the campaign

 

[Pearwood]

Having played the beta for 10 or so games (I don't like doing multiplayer before single player) I have to say I was pretty impressed, it looks like the one zergling per egg thing will take a bit of getting used to but the new roaches and boomlings are awesome. I'd certainly recommend playing the first Starcraft until you're multi tasking on about the same speed as a foaming-at-the-mouth counter strike veteran but it wasn't that hard to get used to, I hadn't played the first Starcraft for over a year before I loaded up the beta and had no real problems.

 

[Evil Earlgrey]

Honestly i think Starcraft2 is fine the way it is. Starcraft became a huge success because it was the best e-sports title ever produced. No wonder Blizzard set that as a focus. If you like less competitive RTS then there are quite a few other titles on the market.
Starcraft is going to be a fun campaign for me and probably years of fun beating the cpu in skirmish. But for others it will be a whole new world of competition. Which is good. I LOVE watching starcraft matches. They are 100x more interesting than football. And they better keep it that way.. fast, hard and competitive.

 

[elvor0]

Oh come on Burning Crusade was great, sure Karazhan was a bit, okay VERY trash filled but the encounters were good, they were CHALLENGING but it wasn't bad by any stretch.

All I know is I played from a month after launch up to level 60 and was in one of the top raiding guilds at the time (Violent Tendencies on Durotan Horde) doing regular MC and AQ raids and such. TBC came out, I bought it, paid for my first month, and quit before the month was over in disgust.

Having Blood Elves shoved onto us was bad enough, dropping greens better than epics within the first hour on preschooler quests was even worse, but no more 40-man raids? Screw Blizzard.

Its called a gear reset so people are equal footing for the next expansion for raiding ¬¬
Blood elves are perfectly fine.
The raids themselves were great, if you'd actually gone to play them.

 

[Carnagath]

Having read most of the posts, here are some things that I feel I should point out:

1) The Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not for the hardcore, it's for everyone. No matter how good or bad you are, you will get matched with players of equal skill level to your own, which always makes for fun games. Yes, you probably will get pulverized in the first 5 placement matches, but after that it's pretty much smooth. Even if you get placed in a league that is somewhat below your capabilities, you will advance to the higher one in no time. It never hurts to watch a replay or youtube commentary every now and then though, since it gives you a feel for what kind of strategies are most viable and improves the way you play.

2) As for Bnet 2.0, it's good at matchmaking, but apart from that it's terrible, that's true.

3) Regarding the single player, I have every confidence in Blizzard's capabilities in making awesome campaigns. They have never disappointed there.

4) As for the gameplay in general, it's a better game than SC1. Yes, it is not yet perfectly balanced, but you are much better equipped to deal with the chaos of the battlefield than in the first game. The UI and controls have been VASTLY improved, the game feels really enjoyable and exhilarating, the gameplay is as fast as your skill level will allow you to go, and it eliminates much of the need for extreme multitasking that the first game had, since you can group up your production buildings and keep your bases producing while you are focusing on the combat.

5) If you are a new player, I suggest you try Protoss online first. They are the least fragile race of the 3, they can switch techs faster than anyone else and they are a blast to play with their warpgates and chrono boosts.

 

[Ascarus]

i played the first starcraft for about an hour. i suspect i will play this one even less.

 

[TheBaron87]

Oh come on Burning Crusade was great, sure Karazhan was a bit, okay VERY trash filled but the encounters were good, they were CHALLENGING but it wasn't bad by any stretch.

All I know is I played from a month after launch up to level 60 and was in one of the top raiding guilds at the time (Violent Tendencies on Durotan Horde) doing regular MC and AQ raids and such. TBC came out, I bought it, paid for my first month, and quit before the month was over in disgust.

Having Blood Elves shoved onto us was bad enough, dropping greens better than epics within the first hour on preschooler quests was even worse, but no more 40-man raids? Screw Blizzard.

I have to agree with you on this one, I miss the good ol' days when WoW didn't have any expansions... *Sigh*

I have noticed something about this thread though. The thread is about Starcraft, and we have all talked about about the lack of LAN, and b.net 2.0 flaws, but besides one players distaste for the new units that SC2 has to offer, no one has really complained about the gameplay. Atleast not from recent memory anyway.

Well, I do recall some one saying they shouldn't make a game for tournament use, but I feels that falls into the whole casual vs hardcore argument. Which as I've stated before in several posts on this thread that Blizzard has taken several steps with matchmaking and the Beginners League to try to make this one more casual friendly than the previous. I believe that argument falls flat.

So if anything. What's everyone's thoughts on the actual gameplay? Anything they changed or added that stood out for you or didn't like?

The gameplay is the only reason people are going to buy the game, and millions of people will buy it. The gameplay is so good I pre-ordered the $100 Collector's Edition DESPITE all the terrible, terrible decisions and "features" Blizz has been adding. The gameplay in the original was good enough to make it my #1 game of all time, when I've played thousands of games (no exaggeration, I'm a diehard gamer nerd with systems dating back to the Atari 2600), and this game improves on the original.

There is no game with better gameplay, period. Blizz knows it, and they're doing everything they can to squeeze as much out of every customer as they can get :\

Its called a gear reset so people are equal footing for the next expansion for raiding ¬¬
Blood elves are perfectly fine.
The raids themselves were great, if you'd actually gone to play them.

You're sounding awfully pink, pinkskin.

 

[The Madman]

All I know is I played from a month after launch up to level 60 and was in one of the top raiding guilds at the time (Violent Tendencies on Durotan Horde) doing regular MC and AQ raids and such. TBC came out, I bought it, paid for my first month, and quit before the month was over in disgust.

Having Blood Elves shoved onto us was bad enough, dropping greens better than epics within the first hour on preschooler quests was even worse, but no more 40-man raids? Screw Blizzard.

You missed out, TBC was easily the best time to raid in WOW. The encounters were insanely fun, the loot epic, plenty of diversity, good difficulty, and looked fantastic. Easily my favorite time playing WOW and the 'only' time I've ever really enjoyed Raiding either before or after.

Hell, TBC was an improvement over the original WOW in pretty much every way. The only things people were stiff over was the shift from 40 man raids to 25, and that all their gear became outdated with the new content. Like you did!

The fight with Kael for example was absolutely epic, a 6... or was it 7 phase fight that lasted over half-an-hour of pure non-stop combat and during which players were given artifact weapons (For the length of the fight) to try and even just stand a chance. Still took months before anyone could defeat him! Most of more hard-core buddies from when I played wow though said that Sunwell was the best raid, although I've never actually done it. I got up to mount Hyjal, and that was it! Archimonde was too tough for the guild I was in to beat, and I stopped playing shortly after.

The actual encounters were better designed, the layouts more diverse, and pretty much better in every way possible. If anything it made the last expansion, WOTLK look poor by comparison since BC had a shit-ton of content, whereas WOTLK focused more on new and mediocre 'vehicle' mechanic while giving relatively few actual Raid encounters.

So yeah, Blizzard have yet to have released a poor product!