(STEAM) Am I the only one?

[Thaedius]

What you did was stupid and you didn't think it through. Do you plan on suing Valve anytime soon?

No, but I also don't plan on giving them free reign to adopt even MORE abusive terms and being left with no recourse for it. All this pap about "Class action lawsuits only benefit the lawyers" misses one important point. They're not supposed to profit the victims, they're supposed to *punish badly behaving businesses.* Valve's new TOS basically tells me that they don't want the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head making them act properly.

Or maybe, like myself, they're sick and tired or people filing lawsuits over frivolous bullshit. I swear the worst think mankind ever did was invent the concept of the lawsuit.

EDIT: I personally think that all lawyers should be rounded up and dumped into a volcano.

You sir, are not the only one

On which part; the part about frivolous lawsuits, lawsuits being the worst thing humanity ever created, or lawyers being dumped into a volcano? ...or all of the above?

Well mainly the first, but doing the second would make sure

There were actually 3 options, but I'll revel in the gratification anyway.

Yes I realised after I posted, but couldn't be arsed to edit my post.

On topic, this is like every ELUA ever, they could write that they own everything you own, and you would mostly just click yes unless you really didnt want to buy/use it in the first place.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I know, I know. "You're never the only one." But this time, it actually feels like I'm the only schmuck out there who bit the bullet and cancelled my Steam account rather than agree to the onerous new TOS?

Not sure, as talk is cheap on teh interwebs. I know of a number of folks that lit up like flash paper and went total bonkers over the TOS changes. Thing is, it was more of a reflex, and from what little I cared to gather none of them actually read the thing or tried to understand it.

Here's the deal: If you like the games offered on Steam by Valve, you need to at least accept the fact that Valve must remain in business and able to do its thing, else Steam gets locked up or goes tits up whenever random folks pop up believing it to be the next best cash cow that could be legally punched into submission, raining milk and honey and loads of money (your money, my money, our money, Valve's money) on them. I think that's not the sort of thing that I want to sponsor. With laws being as crappy as they are and courts and judges being as gullible as they are, I really can't consider the new TOS to be anywhere near 'onerous', as, not too generally speaking, nothing changes for you, the customer. Absolutely no changes whatsoever happen, safe but for that one bit that (for the time being) allows Valve to pretty much continue business as usual without having to bother being afraid of being stopped dead in their tracks due to legal shenanigans. Also, it allows them to keep creativity up and censorship low, as that's another legal loophole the size of an average loading bay. It's not about you or me, it's not about gamers, it's about what the people not caring much about Valve or you or me could do to it if that TOS wasn't updated to reflect the somewhat shitty times we live in.

As the caption says: yadda yadda yadda, in short: quitting Steam over the new TOS is not a smart thing to do if you're not Richard Stallman levels of strict with yourself, the universe and everything.

 

[targren]

It's not about you or me, it's not about gamers, it's about what the people not caring much about Valve or you or me could do to it if that TOS wasn't updated to reflect the somewhat shitty times we live in.

Unlike you, it seems, I am not completely unconcerned about what VALVE could do now. They have done nothing to earn that level of trust from me. In fact, I resisted them as long as I did based on that distrust. It's ironic, I suppose, that when I finally decided to give them a chance to earn that trust, that they broke it.

You seem to have some knowledge that leads you to believe that Valve are still "The good guys" from the way you painted them as the "victims of shitty times" there, but the truth is that this move shows that they're as much a part of the cause of said shitty times as Sony, EA, AT&T, and Verizon.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

You seem to have some knowledge that leads you to believe that Valve are still "The good guys" from the way you painted them as the "victims of shitty times" there, but the truth is that this move shows that they're as much a part of the cause of said shitty times as Sony, EA, AT&T, and Verizon.

Not too much specific knowledge, just a bit of experience with how these things go. Enough for me to print out or just sit down and have a look at these walls of text before I do anything I would have to behead and gut myself for later to save my pride as a creature that lugs a big brain around.

I took part in three class-action lawsuits, because, back then, I thought it was the way to go. In the end, I got about $.99 out of it and I helped cost my providers/services (which I still rely on to this day and actually LIKE) boatloads of dollars in court, whereas the little things I really did want changed never warranted a bunch of lawyers to get rich with my consent while nullifying the amount of money customers put into the pockets of said providers/services. There's just so little good that can come out of any of these.

I think it's not just bad style, it's poor decision making and actually loathsome to bite the hand that feeds you, even if it's just games. Sure, in return, I think the provider/publisher that tries to feed us bs or cast earthbind upon me as I decide to fly, fly away to rain money on some other provider is just as guilty of being a prick. Thing is, the world is full of crap and stupid people, full of negativity and unsavoury characters. The moment I throw money at someone, as I did (and still intend to do) with Valve/Steam, I'll make certain to switch to hell-hath-no-fury mode and let my voice be heard should I feel in any way exploited or abused. Should I, right now, feel the need to burn all bridges and explode into the faces of everyone at or with Valve, I'd probably just try to discuss this with friends and family who also bought into the dream of a better GFWL/ORIGIN, or I'd at the very least pretend to be open minded enough to learn about what other folks from all over the world felt like. Welcome to the Escapist forums.

Mind you, Sony had to do the very same thing not too long ago, after they got hacked. The hack and downtime caused severe financial damages and it put dents the size you could fit planets in in their reputation. The last thing they needed at that point in time were class-action lawsuits to finance some lazy lawyers lease on life.

I hate EA with gusto, and I only keep my Origin account to let it rot... but I don't think you can compare any game publisher to phone-plan-peddling folks. It's like comparing car salesmen to drug dealers, really.

 

[MrTub]

I've got over 100 games on steam so it will take quite a lot for me to cancel it. And the act that the new tos didn't really change anything for me

 

[ToastiestZombie]

So I was on the internets and I see steam is not letting me sue them

And I'm like "Yeah maaan, you're taking away all mah rights! You can kill my child and the system will protect you!"

So I threw my Steam on the ground! Awesome sales to the ground! Gabe Newell to the ground!

Seriously man, giving up all your games on steam because of a highly unlikely possibility is just dumb. Steam aren't going to go to Nazi Hitler EA Pedophile Puppy Eater Satan anytime soon, they're just doing this so dumbasses and their lawyers don't drive them into the ground. You can still sue them, just not in the lawyer-focused crappy way known as class action.

 

[Tropicaz]

I love counter strike and football manager too much to ever cancel steam.

 

[targren]

I think it's not just bad style, it's poor decision making and actually loathsome to bite the hand that feeds you, even if it's just games. Sure, in return, I think the provider/publisher that tries to feed us bs or cast earthbind upon me as I decide to fly, fly away to rain money on some other provider is just as guilty of being a prick.

Ah, there lies the difference in philosophy then. I will never, EVER consider any company that doesn't actually pay me to be "the hand that feeds me." As their customer, *I* am one of the hands that feeds *them.* If Valve (or EA, or the entire video game industry for that matter) went out of business tomorrow, the difference that would make in my life would be marginal, at best. I don't know if you're older than I am, and can remember a time when companies actually valued and earned customer loyalty, or if you're younger and just haven't yet learned that they don't actually give a damn about you any further than where you keep your wallet.

I hate EA with gusto, and I only keep my Origin account to let it rot... but I don't think you can compare any game publisher to phone-plan-peddling folks. It's like comparing car salesmen to drug dealers, really.

Except it's a perfectly valid comparison, since it was the scumbags at the Cell Phone companies who hoisted this "mandatory arbitration" on us in the first place.

 

[targren]

[
It is just the new laws US corporations have after frivolous litigants took AT&T to court and lost.

You might want to stop parroting that lie. The fact is that AT&T is the one that lost, repeatedly, and THEY are the ones who appealed it all the way to SCOTUS.

 

[Stormz]

You know, I was starting to dislike Steam less and then they reverse my opinion completely. If I was a pirate I wouldn't even be effected by this because my games would be DRM free always.

oh well.

 

[octafish]

[
It is just the new laws US corporations have after frivolous litigants took AT&T to court and lost.

You might want to stop parroting that lie. The fact is that AT&T is the one that lost, repeatedly, and THEY are the ones who appealed it all the way to SCOTUS.

Shit, I had gotten turned around on this by others peddling the lie. I'm happy to be corrected.

I got taken to task a couple of times for blaming AT&T and the Supreme Court. Rather than depending on hearsay like I did, I've now checked. My initial response is correct. AT&T and the SCOTUS are to blame fair and square.

 

[Bostur]

I tip my hat to you, in recognition of your commitment to your principles. Personally I took the lazy way out and did what I always do, assumed that it has no practical relevance. I don't think I have seen a TOS or EULA for a long time that I could agree with. Around here laws are made by politicians and even fancy international companies need to abide by them.

 

[TimeLord]

What's the big deal with the new ToS? And even if they are stupidly restrictive, I've spent way too much money to give up my Steam account.

I've ony ever had one problem with Steam, and they sorted out my problem in a day. I have no beef with them

 

[Vivi22]

1. For customers in the US the arbiter is a member of the American Arbitration Association and not someone working for Valve thus ensuring they are a neutral third party.

Actually, there is usually some question of just how neutral an arbiter actually is. They're typically selected by the company, and while in this case their fees are paid by both parties, the fact that Valve will reimburse you for them means that they're basically paying the fees entirely which is often the case anyway. Now if you're opponent is selecting the arbiter (which many companies do) and is being paid by them, do you bite the hand that feeds you? There have been some arbiters that have been black balled by corporations because they sided against them a little too often. Arbitration is not inherently neutral, nor does one have any recourse if the arbiter decides against them, as they would if their case went to court. And the proceedings are never public as they are in a court of law.

Now I'm not saying that Valve would be actively involved in the shadier aspects of arbitration which some companies do actively engage in. In fact, I genuinely think that they would not only not involve themselves in it, but be actively opposed to it. But arbitration in place of litigation is neutral in neither fact nor appearance more often than not, and is absolutely an erosion of people's rights.

That said, I agreed to the terms in this case, in large part because I'm Canadian and I simply don't know if the arbitration clauses have been tested here. And regardless, the absolute worst thing Valve could do is shut down my account. So I lose quite a few games that I paid good money for over the years if that happens. It's not the end of the world and doesn't leave me out of pocket for anything right now since the only Steam games I play on a regular basis are Valve games.

Realistically, the amount the actual person would lose in such a situation isn't worth suing over since it will cost more than it would ever recover. The only time litigation would be useful would be if Valve simultaneously screwed over thousands of people at the same time in the same way, and I find that so unlikely that it's laughable.

 

[veloper]

Actually, the TS just might aswell BE "the only one" who would kill an entire Steam library of games.

I can understand when gamers take their future business elsewhere, but you still click accept.

 

[getoffmycloud]

I didn't cancel my account but I am not going to be buying from the service anymore

 

[MammothBlade]

It seems rather stupid to shut down your steam account just because you don't like the new ToS. You can't transfer your games, it's not like a bank account where they have to give you your money. Just stop buying games on steam if it bothers you that much, and make use of the ones you have. Their service, their rules. It's hardly slave labour you're agreeing to. They can't force you to buy anything.

I understand some people may be stubborn, but people don't leave that much personal info on steam. You can remove your credit card details. All that will be left if you choose to gut your account is records of your achievements, playtime, and games.

 

[Darkmantle]

You do realize that TOS and EULAs and whatnot are completely toothless, right?

A lot of people don't realize this. You cannot sign away your rights. At least not where I live, so the ToS usually ends up being useless.