Someone can still be the best at something if everyone else is shit at it. First of all, to the best of my knowledge, no online games retailer currently offers refunds, nor would they be crazy enough to give away money they don't have to, given that currently online games retailers are not obligated to refund consumers. Second, their actual customer support is friendlier and better than any other company's support staff.
Absolutely wrong, on every level. The only digital distribution platforms that don't offer refunds are Uplay (which I didnt even know was a DD platform) and Steam. Origin has a fairly generous refund policy. GoG has a good refund policy. GmG has a refund policy. Amazon's digital platform has a amazin as fuck return policy even goin so far as to publicly announce they'd be giving refunds to games like Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3, both games that worked perfectly fine but people just didn't like for whatever reason.
So? It's still literally 3 clicks away from being disabled (or maybe 4 depending on how you count them). Also no - I think the focus actually was on misinformation - the complaint was not about that it could be disabled but it's on by default - no the complaint not only did omit the part about it being optional, it completely obfuscated it by being about "it's there all the time" which I would classify as a lie, given that it does not need to be there all the time unless you choose so. And if you choose so, it should not be a complaint. In its current form it's a strawman argument.
Jasper van Heycop said:
[DRM] doesn't achieve what it sets out to do, which is stopping piracy.
Some people don't like it simply because it's drm and Steam completely controls your games. DRM is like having a bouncer ask you everyday to see your ID and let you into your own house. No matter how nice the bouncer is, they can fuck right off and let me use my stuff.
I don't a have a problem using Steam though because they're so cheap and it's relatively quick to get games running and social features aren't half bad. But at the end of day, if had to choose between buying a game off GoG or for console for full price or a game off Steam at 75%, I'll take consoles and GoG. Plus I sometimes like supporting devs for good work rather than throw pennies at them
NuclearKangaroo said:
maybe im not so bothered over the idea of my games one day becoming unplayable because:
1) steam has already existed for 10 years
2) Gabe himself has said hed disable steam's DRM if valve ever went down
1) I have 3 copies of the game Soul Reaver that came out in 1997 just shy of 20 years ago. One original ps1 disk, a psn digital copy, and a Steam copy. Guess which ones work? I'll give you a hint, the 17 year old disk and the Sony version. Games can last pretty long for a lot of people. And I can probably rip most disk games and play them on pc emulators. And I didn't realize that a company existing for 10 instantly means they're immortal. Moreover, our lord and savior Gabe Newell won't be around forever. How do you know you'll even want to associate with Steam in the next 10 years? They could be the next EA for all you know
2) does Gabe Newell literally own the rights to every single game sold on Steam? No he doesn't. How can he just give away what he doesn't own? To quote one guys in charge of GoG, "Gabe Newell can't make your games magically drm free. If the servers shut down your games will be magically gone"
point taken, there isnt much i can argue agaisnt this, just saying what the great one said
i will said tough that my ps1 is busted and in the past i havent taken good care of my games, so steam works for me, not necessarily for everyone else, plus if it wasnt for steam i wouldnt "own" (for a lack of a better word) as many games as i do today
plus even when a drm-free version is avaliable i usually take the steam version of a game for the extra features i feel steam adds, for instance, on more than 1 ocassion ive gotten my money back, or most of it, when i sell the trading cards that come with the games i buy in the humble bundle
Out of curiosity, what was wrong with each game? Vampire is a universally acclaimed game and Sniper Ghost Warrior looks like ti got meh reviews, but nothing saying it was literally unplayable.
I never said either game was good or bad, how could I seeing as how both did not go further than a black screen. That's literally what happened. Ghost Warrior basically just did not work at all on my computer and no matter how many times I reinstalled and checked the files the game just refused to launch. Same thing for Vampire, I downloaded it, clicked the play button and it just went to a black screen for a few seconds before returning to the desktop. When I found out I had to download a mod to make it work I felt completely ripped off.
For those that have a few seconds update when starting a game or exiting, that is the Cloud service. This is for if you play the same game on your desktop and on your laptop so in sync's the saves. Lets say you last played on the desktop your last save is uploaded to the cloud service now you are someplace with your laptop and start the same game it downloads the last save you had from the desktop so you can continue where you left off. This is a service that is on by default and if you do not use it then you can shut it off.
Top of the steam window is Steam View and a couple others. Click the Steam and select Settings from the list. second from the bottom in the new window is Cloud. click that and you have 2 checkboxes, uncheck both and no more cloud updates.
This is the internet. Specifically, the corner containing the Escapist Forum.
If a thing exists, and people like it, someone around here will hate it with every fiber of their being. It's just how it is.
As for me? I like Steam. It's become an extremely useful tool and service for my gaming habits. It's brought me both incredible games (at low prices, generally) and a wealth of friends; some of whom I've gotten to know in "real life".
However, Steam is not without it's faults. Not by a long shot. I have some grievances with this aspect or that. Some that have been addressed by Valve. Some that have not. But overall my experience has been very firmly in the positive over the years.
That said, what I dislike the most, when it comes to Steam, is this overwhelming need some around here seem to have to hate on the platform for anything and everything. They'll decree every single aspect of the the thing as the worst atrocity to hit gaming; often going from zero to Godwin in under a paragraph.
It accomplishes nothing and many of the genuine, legitimate issues with the platform get drowned out under a wave of hyperbole.
Signa said:
Some people don't like being forced into using things. I also prefer to buy my products as physical copies if I can.
Thankfully, DD has brought games to such an affordable price, I don't mind "renting" them for the pittance that I pay.
To be fair, some of the DD services out there (like Steam) have tools and feature sets built into the platform that allow you to store and backup any game you have onto a physical medium. It's the first thing I use the moment I buy a game off Steam or GoG. I immediately create a backup of the game files either onto one of my spare harddrives or onto a DVD. That way, if ever I need to reinstall a game, it can just plug in the drive or pop in the disc and it installs in no time.
You can literally turn that off in the settings and using small mode prevents you from ever having to see the store page at all. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to complain about Steam, but at least look through the options before you do. That readily solves a number of problems people have with it.
While I freely admit no accuracy to this statistic, I'd wager 75% of the complaints I hear most often in regards to Steam can be solved by simply getting the person to; what is often the first time; click on the Settings menu in the client window.
I mean....for fucks sake, people. At least check a programs settings before you lose your shit about it doing something you don't like.
This is the internet. Specifically, the corner containing the Escapist Forum.
If a thing exists, and people like it, someone around here will hate it with every fiber of their being. It's just how it is.
As for me? I like Steam. It's become an extremely useful tool and service for my gaming habits. It's brought me both incredible games (at low prices, generally) and a wealth of friends; some of whom I've gotten to know in "real life".
However, Steam is not without it's faults. Not by a long shot. I have some grievances with this aspect or that. Some that have been addressed by Valve. Some that have not. But overall my experience has been very firmly in the positive over the years.
That said, what I dislike the most, when it comes to Steam, is this overwhelming need some around here seem to have to hate on the platform for anything and everything. They'll decree every single aspect of the the thing as the worst atrocity to hit gaming; often going from zero to Godwin in under a paragraph.
It accomplishes nothing and many of the genuine, legitimate issues with the platform get drowned out under a wave of hyperbole.
indeed there are legitimate flaws in the service, as well as some subjective reasons of why one would dislike it
but some of the stuff people have brought up here is either outdated information or lies, i know im not the most objective observer when it comes to Valve, im *this* close to having a gabe newell altar, but some of this stuff legitimately sounds like hating for the sake of hating
For me, steam gets a lot right but I'm nervous about buying anything from them after I bought a game that didn't work (no refund, and a shitty experience trying to get one) and after oculus got bought I'm really concerned that a lot of my library is steam only (given most publishers/devs don't release no-steam exes.) The main thing for me that steam has right is that I don't have to use a credit card or something like paypal to buy my games. The other thing they got right was persuading devs/publishers that making PC games was a good thing.
I really dislike that steam needs to be running for very nearly every game I've bought, but when I looked into it I found that having the steam browser running to play games is not a requirement made by steam itself; it's usually publishers who demand it as DRM. As for the anti-consumer practices steam has I think that it's just typical of an American company. Chances are that steam will piss me off enough to ditch them like I have apple, microsoft, facebook, google, EA etc.
i agree with most of your stuff, like i said, 2 sides, but im not wrong with reviews, last time i checked train simulator is still full of negative reviews, i never said the forums werent modded to the devs discretion for better or worse (often worse)...
Train Simulator now has negative reviews because they got caught unjustifiably flagging reviews for removal and Steam's user base rightfully called them out on it. Just because it's not happening now with that particular example doesn't mean it never happened or never will happen someplace else.
Flagging allows devs and publishers to censor by proxy. It's as simple as that.
NuclearKangaroo said:
...but im not agaisnt the flagging of tags, for 2 reasons
- a lot of people tried to use tags to critize the game, you dont have to play a game to tag it, unlike user reviews, so this could be easily abused, you have games like DmC, with more or less positive user reviews (is more like 50/50, positive reviews have 60% or so of approval ratings while negative ones 50%) and tags like "edgy", "donte", "fuck you", etc
- some people used tags simply to mess aroung, tags like "kawaii", "more desu", "gotta go fast", "diva dev" arent really helpful
I'm not too bothered by the fact that devs are allowed to flag tags. The tagging system was heavily abused by the user base from day one, as we all know. But I'd also like to point out that Valve are now removing negative tags too, no matter how accurate they are -- that kind of censorship just gives the impression that Valve aren't interested in a balanced tagging system. Tags are just another one of those "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" ideas from Valve, and it needs some obvious reworking.
NuclearKangaroo said:
also id like to inform you steam no longer locks your games away if you get banned, as far as i know
If you're referring to VAC bans, you're spot on. Account bans still lock you out of your entire account, and as far as I'm aware EULA/ToS bans still do that too.
Sarge034 said:
...to the best of my knowledge, no online games retailer currently offers refunds, nor would they be crazy enough to give away money they don't have to, given that currently online games retailers are not obligated to refund consumers.
For clarification, I'd like to point out that the majority of digital retailers offer refunds in one form or another-
Cash back refunds: EA, GOG, and Amazon
Credit refunds: Ubisoft, Green Man Gaming, GameStop, Gamers Gate, and virtually every other smaller DL retailer in the business
Steam does credit refunds too, but it's the only one I've ever dealt with that forces it customers to go through an intimidating, multi-step vetting process just to get acknowledgment that they indeed do offer refunds. Steam has, by far, the worst refund policy in the business.
Sarge034 said:
Second, their actual customer support is friendlier and better than any other company's support staff.
Maybe for you, but for virtually everyone else Steam is quite infamous for its terrible customer service and ignorant CS reps. The only other company I can think of that has a worse reputation in that area is Ubisoft.
Sarge034 said:
Their multiplayer monitoring system, Valve Anti-Cheat, is one of the best in the business, and has been shutting down wall-hackers and aim-botters consistently for many years now.
VAC only works right when it's implemented properly. In the case of third-party games, maintenance is entirely up to the developers and publishers of those games, and that's where VAC starts showing signs of weakness. For example, VAC is widely regarded as ineffective in the Call of Duty series, simply because Activision have zero interest in keeping cheaters out of their games. In another example, VAC is known to have contributed to the eventual dissolution of at least one multiplayer game (Homefront) due to the fact that Valve allegedly failed to provide the proper cheat information to the developer, thereby causing the game to be completely taken over by hackers within its first month.
i agree with most of your stuff, like i said, 2 sides, but im not wrong with reviews, last time i checked train simulator is still full of negative reviews, i never said the forums werent modded to the devs discretion for better or worse (often worse)...
Train Simulator now has negative reviews because they got caught unjustifiably flagging reviews for removal and Steam's user base rightfully called them out on it. Just because it's not happening now with that particular example doesn't mean it never happened or never will happen someplace else.
Flagging allows devs and publishers to censor by proxy. It's as simple as that.
see the flag icon in the lower right corner of the review? also this is an indirect recomendation of noitu love devolution 2
finally i believe the evidence strongly suggests Valve listens to more people than just the dev, bad games still have bad reviews with devs feeling bad about it as they should
KungFuJazzHands said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
...but im not agaisnt the flagging of tags, for 2 reasons
- a lot of people tried to use tags to critize the game, you dont have to play a game to tag it, unlike user reviews, so this could be easily abused, you have games like DmC, with more or less positive user reviews (is more like 50/50, positive reviews have 60% or so of approval ratings while negative ones 50%) and tags like "edgy", "donte", "fuck you", etc
- some people used tags simply to mess aroung, tags like "kawaii", "more desu", "gotta go fast", "diva dev" arent really helpful
I'm not too bothered by the fact that devs are allowed to flag tags. The tagging system was heavily abused by the user base from day one, as we all know. But I'd also like to point out that Valve are now removing negative tags too, no matter how accurate they are -- that kind of censorship just gives the impression that Valve aren't interested in a balanced tagging system. Tags are just another one of those "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" ideas from Valve, and it needs some obvious reworking.
If you're referring to VAC bans, you're spot on. Account bans still lock you out of your entire account, and as far as I'm aware EULA/ToS bans still do that too.
I never said either game was good or bad, how could I seeing as how both did not go further than a black screen. That's literally what happened. Ghost Warrior basically just did not work at all on my computer and no matter how many times I reinstalled and checked the files the game just refused to launch. Same thing for Vampire, I downloaded it, clicked the play button and it just went to a black screen for a few seconds before returning to the desktop. When I found out I had to download a mod to make it work I felt completely ripped off.
Did you ever actually work out why the games weren't working? Because with Vampire, the only time a mod is required to play that I could find, was relating to Win7. And since Win7 isnt listed as a compatible OS, then you wouldn't get a refund, so im assuming its not that.
The point is I ask if you found out what the issue is, because if you never found out why the games didnt work, I would of said you weren't entitled to a refund.
To be fair, some of the DD services out there (like Steam) have tools and feature sets built into the platform that allow you to store and backup any game you have onto a physical medium. It's the first thing I use the moment I buy a game off Steam or GoG. I immediately create a backup of the game files either onto one of my spare harddrives or onto a DVD. That way, if ever I need to reinstall a game, it can just plug in the drive or pop in the disc and it installs in no time.
I don't know about you, but I just don't feel like I own a game if it's on a burnt disk. I feel like I own a burnable disk. Digital will never replace that feeling of physical, not unless I buy a professional pressing machine.
I don't know about you, but I just don't feel like I own a game if it's on a burnt disk. I feel like I own a burnable disk. Digital will never replace that feeling of physical, not unless I buy a professional pressing machine.
Mmm, I don't know. For all intents and purposes, besides a missing label (which can be made pretty easily), storing a legitimately purchased piece of software on disc-based media is the same as just buying the disc pre-printed.
I can appreciate how you feel, though. But for me, I have no issue. As nice as it is to have physical cases, booklets, and whatnot I don't really need them. And even if I really want them I have the means to make them.
And besides, a lot of devs and publishers have gotten pretty lazy and uninspired when it comes to case and disc label designs. Even fewer include anything more than a quick-install card in the box. :/
Though, on the plus side, special and collector editions have gotten much better in recent years. Ludicrously more expensive, in some cases, but still better than they often were in the past.
Because for some reason people can be okay with being required to have a certain brand console but never a store but not for having a program to launch games.
Ohhh it's evil and digital, but offers insane discounts to compensate.
It monitors what games you play and what hardware you have, yes, so does MS and sony, that's how they learn what people are interested in, it's nothing new.
But it also requires you to be online! No, no it doesn't.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see the reason for the hate, it's just there, it does what it does and considering the problems that consoles have in the regards to digital vs steam it's scary.
DLC is being removed from the PSN and XBL store and isn't downloadable anymore if you don't get it now, same with a Virtual Console game, when that happens on steam the game is always accessible to you, there's just no means of buying it for others.
Despite paying for XBL on console, it advertizes to you, these are features others get for free and I have NO idea why one would pay for it. Cloud saving? Voice chat? Demos? Well, yeah that's free on steam, and you don't have to use it you can use any program you'd like really to chat.
I mean with consoles you're restricted hardware wise to what you can use and they use a variety of proprietary connectors just to rub salt into the wound. PC you can plug anything you want in, including the WiiU tablet apparently-also things like the Genesis controller, SNES, etc with adapters. Yes you can do that to a limited capacity on consoles as well, I'm aware. But good luck getting keyboard on CoD or whatever.
Remember that whole insane DRM that X1 was gonna implement and their reasoning was: "You can share games with family!" but you need to check in every 24 hours, always have your console online. Well steam has that now, as long as you are not playing a game, your friend or family member once registered can download, install and play the game easy peasy...but without the always online bit.
Steam is required to play some games, but at least if offers options, many games are on Uplay or Origin as well, hell you can register games you got on steam like Dead Space, Mass Effect, Dead Space 2 and register them on origin with the serial and now you have it on THAT platform. You don't need to buy games on steam/origin/uplay either, you can buy them off amazon, green man gaming and the like and apply them to said digital service. Closest you have with that on console is cross-buy which is limited.
But whatever, everyone has to hate something I guess. I prefer hating narrow minded bias against things when there's little logical reason to do so. But wait snot, you bashed the 360 and PS3, you're bias!
Am I?
[http://s546.photobucket.com/user/snotnarok/media/IMG_1906.jpg.html]
Of course not, I just don't use the bits of the consoles I find stupid. I got a PSP, 3DS and PSVita as well and have enjoyed them a bunch. But there's no denying that they are infinitely more restrictive. I find Sony to have far better digital policies than the likes of Nintendo who make you buy each game on a different platform and it's hardware locked vs buy FFVII on PS3, play it on PSP, PSV, PS3, at the same time if you're really mental.
I'm sorry but you're just throwing around the word "DRM" like you don't know what it means. Digital Rights Management software. What it does at its most basic form is prevent you from using software. It is never for the consumer. Imagine if you will, drm is like getting kicked in balls. Valve's drm places a nice fluffy pillow on your crotch while they kick you, then they give you some cake or something. The bottom line, I would liked to skip the cake and not get kicked in the balls. GoG gives a nice piece of cake by letting you download your games whenver you want for good prices and not include drm in their installers thus skipping the balls kicking
Nah dude, I understand perfectly what DRM means. You said it yourself. Digital Rights Managment.
DRM used to be a key code and a license agreement stating that you, the end user had purchased the right to install and use a piece of software on a single machine. If you installed it too many times your code would no longer work. Along came CD Key gens and No CD patches.
It's been a war ever since to the point that publishers started using more and more draconian DRM till you get to that awesome pile of shit that it sim city. A single player game that is always online but doesn't work like it should and has features stripped out so that the DRM can stay.
You get no arguments from me on that aspect of DRM
But there is more than one side to anything. Steam is still a mechanism for DRM but it is DRM that puts some weight towards the consumers rights as well. Steam says this person bought this product, they have the right to use it on any machine they see fit as long as they are only using one copy at a time. That is reasonable to me. I can go to a friends house, log into my Steam account and download any game onto said friends computer and we can play as long as we like until I go home and log back in on my machine. He no longer has access to my game. I dont see this as any different to the days of taking a game cartridge around to a friends place to play for the day and then taking it back home with me when we were done.
You say DRM is never for the consumer but the above scenario proves that statement false. That is me doing as I please with whoever I please with software that I have paid for. I don't believe that buying a piece of software gives me the right to make endless copies of it to distribute at will. But I do believe that I have the right to share content I have paid for with family and friends. Steam fulfills that need and thus creates a reasonable middle ground where the rights of both devs/publishers and consumers can be catered to.
GoG goes all the way in the consumers favour. It is still a form af DRM but it's DRM that is a polar opposite of the shit that pubs like EA and formerly Ubi ( I wont say Ubi is the shining light but they have eased up somewhat of late) would to ram into every one of our holes they can find. Once you have bought it you can do with it as you please and they wont stop you. If you somehow manage to lose it you can log back in to their DRM service and download it again, no charge, giving YOU complete control in the Management of your Digital Rights. How is that NOT DRM for the consumer?
DRM is generally seen as a dirty word/kick in the nuts because thats the way publishers have used it and generally the way it is always reported on. It doesn't need to be. DRM can benefit both sides of the equation. Steam does that fairly well I think
My first encounter with steam was with HL2 and it's true if you have to open steam for 1 game it sucks.
Though now I don't view it as DRM but more as my game library.
As someone with a 300 game library I like steam and how it manages my games and keeps them up to date.
Biggest downsides:
Yes it is DRM, but nothing like the shit Origin does.
No refunds, they really need to work on this.
It works best with a fast internet connection.
Things it does well:
Keeps the games up to date.
Quick access to the games.
Sales Sales Sales.
Convinced a lot of people to stop pirating. (Including myself)
MODS! (Workshop and Skyrim all that needs to be said.)
Though it would be nice if they would be a easy as GOG with DRM I think both are perfect opposites.
There is a Steam hate thread on NeoGaf too right now. Awesome! Never really thought the Steam love affair was healthy for gaming.
Steam is ugly and it's slow. Maybe my memory is flawed but it used to start up silently but now we get a "checking for updates" every time.
The store is full of shovelware and the daily deals are only good if you like that shovelware, mostly indie shit. You know what, I didn't buy a nice video card to play 8 bit platformers, I have an NES for that. Anyway, I stopped letting it boot with Windows since I no longer check the shop every day at noon. I only boot it up when I want to play a game on Steam.
Did I mention how ugly the UI is? I get it, dark is edgy and all that but I'll take lighter colors anyday.
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