Stream lined vs. Dumbed Down

[Seracen]

With the way marketing is, "streamlined" has become the politically correct way of saying "dumbed down." In actuality, proper streamlining should require more work, as you are attempting to make inherent systems more intuitive.

Thing is, I can't think of any proper examples where "streamlining" WASN'T also dumbing down. I have to go all the way back to Tie Fighter (when compared to X-Wing).

EDIT: I can't think of any I'VE played, though there are probably some shooters and RPG's that have done so (as the Crysis example below).

For example, ME2 was BOTH streamlined AND dumbed down. ME3 was just the latter.

 

[LAGG]

Streamlining is making tasks that are boring, repetive and time consuming, to be automated and easier to access in orther to save time, reduce clicks and make menu navigation less of a hassle.

Dumbing down is making stuff easier.

For example, Crysis.

Crysis 2's suit controls are brilliant, mapping stealth, speed, strength and armour onto quick buttons and doing away with the power wheel. It makes the suit much faster and more intuitive to play than the power wheel from the original, which encouraged reliance on one power at a time rather than rapidly chaining abilities in combat.

That's streamlining, taking the existing features and repackage them to be more intuitive.

You can access any power by double hitting a key, including using them in different contexts.

Double tap Duck: activate/deactivate cloak
Double tap Back: activate/deactivate maximum armor
Double tap Sprint: start running with maximum speed
Double tap Melee: punch/throw something with maximum strength
Double tap Jump: do a super jump with maximum strength

 

[Mid Boss]

I just picked up a Space sim game called X3 Albion Prelude. The sequel, X: Rebirth, is coming out next month, it looks AMAZING, so I picked up the previous one in the series.

There is so much freedom and so much you can do that I really want to love and play this game!

Unfortunately, the menu system is about as intuitive as a tax form and the travel system will have you sitting there for 15+ minutes just going from warp gate to warp gate. I was freaking falling asleep playing this last night! That was after I spent half an hour trying to figure out how to switch ships until I gave up and went to look for a game faq. Then I went to buy missiles just to find out none of the missiles I bought could be used on my ship. There was no indication of that anywhere. It has a learning curve the height of Mount Everest.

I have never seen a game that so blatantly DESPERATLY needed to be stream lined. I'm hoping this X: Rebirth addresses these issues without removing the freedom.

 

[Saika Renegade]

XCOM Enemy Unknown is a streamlined XCOM UFO Defense. Same feel (it manages to be less campy and yet doesn't suffer from grimdark syndrome as the original setting was already fairly gritty), same context, but lets you focus on both ground combat and base functions without bogging you down in minutiae. Yes, I might feel that the functional removal of the Kamikaze Rookie is an unfortunate thing, but it keeps a somewhat more consistent tone (in that in real life, you don't go through the expense of training soldiers to simply to load them with bombs and have them run screaming Serious Sam style at the enemy).

Mechassault was a dumbed down Mechwarrior. While Mechwarrior is an action game (and closer to a simulator if you really want to be technical), Mechassault retains all of the shootiness and spectacle while reducing the depth. Armor preservation, locational damage, precision targeting, ammo conservation, customization, weapons grouping, bracket firing, and so on--all considerations in Mechwarrior, not so much in Mechassault. You can easily pick up and play Mechassault, but at the end of the day you're going to have almost the same experience each time; at some point you run through the gamut of Mechs and that's it.

Streamlining can be a good thing, it's basically boiling a game down to its core elements and making the gameplay support those core elements. Dumbing down isn't such a good thing, since it usually means you lose meaningful and engaging gameplay elements. This isn't necessarily a condemnation of games that could be described as either streamlined or dumbed down. In spite the points against Mechassault, I consider it fun while it lasts. For me it was just a shallower experience than a Mechwarrior release and left me wanting more to keep me invested in it--the real sign that there was just something missing.

 

[DrOswald]

Streamlining is the reduction of complexity or difficulty without the reduction of depth.
Dumbing down is the reduction of both complexity or difficulty resulting in a reduction of depth.

The problem is that people often confuse complexity, difficulty, and depth.

The ultimate example of a dumbed down concept is the change from Yoshi's island to Yoshi's Story. Taken on it's own merits Yoshi's Story is ok. But as a spiritual successor to Yoshi's island, one of the greatest platformers of all time, it was a massive disappointment. And that is largely to do with the dumbing down that occurred. The game was crippled in an attempt to appeal to little children. Yoshi's Island was more complex, more difficult and far deeper than Yoshi's story.

On the other hand, we have Super Metroid. Metroid was a good game, but Super Metroid took everything that made Metroid great, cut away the crap, and then expanded on what remained. Super Metroid is among the best games ever made and a lot of that can be attributed to the streamlining of the core concepts found in Metroid. Exploration is subtly directed but not limited and the difficulty is mitigated but only by reducing the gameplay failures of the first. In particular the exploration of Super Metroid is significantly less difficult and complex than Metroid but far deeper.

 

[kasperbbs]

I'm pretty sure that sometimes streamlining/dumbing down can be a good thing, i'm glad that they removed that mess of an inventory from mass effect 1, i just couldn't help but check if anyone from my crew didn't have the best weapon/mod/armor that is currently available and that was a massive pain in the ass, not to mention getting rid of all that crap. Being able to shoot straight right from the start was also a nice addition.

But what they did with DA2 was just too much, i couldn't believe that they wouldn't let me change my companions armors, any choices you make don't matter at all, the map.. And the whole game just looks ugly compared to the first one.

 

[Nazulu]

On Skyrim, I became used to the patterns of all of it really quickly and so became bored of it before I even finished the main quest and before I hit level 20. That's really sad. It really makes you miss certain features and it can't be ignored.

Heres a video that outlines it pretty well.


It killed depth, pretty much.

 

[loc978]

Depends on who you ask. Both "Streamlined" and "Dumbed down" are value judgments... very subjective. As far as I'm concerned, one man's streamlined is another's dumbed down (I usually fall on the side of the argument that accuses dumbing down. I actually enjoy full-on Star Wars D20, with all of its rules on vehicle movement, wound system, et cetera).

...I try to discuss these things with specifics, but I can't stand DoTA-style games (I firmly believe "last-hitting" is an abortion of a game mechanic... a negative quirk of simplistic programming bought as a feature. But again, subjective), so that's all I've got.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Streamlining is the reduction of complexity or difficulty without the reduction of depth.
Dumbing down is the reduction of both complexity or difficulty resulting in a reduction of depth.

This is a pretty accurate definition.

Splinter Cell Conviction is a perfect example of a dumbed down game. Blacklist, while shitty in it's own way, is more streamlined than dumbed down. Ubisoft managed to bring back most of the features that the fans wanted. And it can be argued that those features work better in Blacklist than they ever did in previous titles. For example, you can select lethal/non lethal takedowns before you even attack the enemy, leaving you with an additional button on the controller for when you're engaging the enemy. That's streamlined. In Conviction you could only kill enemies. That's dumbed down. Still, Blacklist is far from perfect. And they're yet to bring back enemy interrogations and other minigames like hacking and lockpicking.

 

[skywolfblue]

I'm a fan of streamlining in most of the cases.

Mass Effect 1 had mountains of useless "options" that didn't add to the game in any meaningful way, and the combat was absolutely terrible. Mass Effect 2 reduced it to a handful of options that meant a lot more in the long run, and the gameplay smoothed out to make it actually enjoyable to play. Mass Effect 3 took it just a hair farther and improved the combat a whole lot more.

Dragon Age: Origins often had like 3 dialogue lines that amounted to the same thing, and it's combat was absolutely abysmal on consoles. Dragon Age 2 (despite other, far larger problems) actually improved the combat by leaps and bounds, and improved the chat options somewhat.

For Dead Space 3, people complained that the weapon crafting system dumbed the game down and ruined it. When I felt it was the complete opposite, the weapon crafting system added more complexity and weapon variety to the game.

Skyrim, for all it's numerous flaws, was mountains better then all the previous Elder Scrolls games.

That's contrary to what most of the people here will say, but I say: Viva la Streamlining.

About the only example of a "Dumbed Down" game I can think of would be World of Warcraft: Cataclysm. They just kinda took a wrecking ball to nearly everything that made classes interesting and unique, as well as all the lore and story that made the game memorable in the first place.

 

[Weaver]

Streamlining is simplifying a needlessly complex mechanic.
Dumbing down is removing it entirely.

Personally, if you're removing something just completely stupid or broken I see it as "fixing the game" more than anything else. Eg, removal of the auction house in Diablo 3 was not streamlining or dumbing down anything.

The obvious difficulty is "needlessly complex" is a matter of opinion depending on the person.

Disgaea D2, as a recent example, did a good deal of streamlining and I think it's one of the best games in the series.

 

[SKBPinkie]

The difference between the two is whether or not you like the game.

Seriously, I've read enough arguments about how people feel about different games to realize that this is the only common factor that effects their viewpoint. It's almost never objective, in my opinion.

 

[gamer_parent]

The question, like Jovian above me said, is about complexity vs. depth. Complexity is the amount of information you need to process to make a decision, while depth is a function of number of meaningful decisions you can make. "Meaningful" is the operative word here.

Complexity primarily rewards study and experience, while depth rewards both of those AND ability to think ahead. In other words, if a game requires a lot of study, but you can come up with an optimal play path eventually, where success is more or less guaranteed, the game is complex. If a game thrives on continuous study, but there is never really a single optimal path of play, and can endure some pretty amazing stress tests in terms of boundaries, the game is deep. (That is, the meta-game is ever evolving)

Now, in a real world context, all game designers want depth in their game if they can help it, but often getting depth requires a certain level of complexity to go with it. And with greater complexity, you turn off more players. Complexity, in this particular scenario, can basically be a stand in for casual vs. core spectrum. After all, becoming core is simply just a matter of learning the conventions and becoming comfortable with control schemes and so forth, but little to do with making deep decisions necessarily.

So back to DotA2 vs. LoL. Here's the truth as I see it: LoL is BOTH less complex AND less deep than DotA2. This, I believe, was an intentional decision. Think about it for a second, DOTA is NOT an easy game to play. I once heard that a newbie can play 100 games, and still feel like he knows NOTHING about the game. That is GREAT for people who love to lose themselves in study of a game, but TERRIBLE for the purpose of ramping up with new players.

 

[Fox12]

Ok its pretty much right there in the title. I came across an interesting conundrum the other day while talking to my friend. We were both playing League of Legends but he also plays DoTA 2. He insists that DoTA 2 is infinitely better and that even though he enjoys League he says its "dumb downed" after which I offered that it wasn't dumbed down but rather stream lined. Also while I have never played an Elder Scrolls game I understand that there was a similar argument that that Skyrim had a bunch of features removed that were in Oblivion thus making it more user friendly but apparently at the same time dumbing the game down.

When did we reach the point that these two terms have almost become synonymous. I offer that a game that is stream lined is a game that is made more accessible to new comers while still maintaining a good level of depth to be found by experienced players while dumbing down makes it more accessible but sacrifices depth in game play. So am I more or less asking if I am right or my friend is right? Yeah. Still, and this is especially for Elder Scrolls, LoL and DoTA players, I want your opinions on if these games are actually dumbed down versions or if they are as I call it stream lined. Also list some examples of games that might actually qualify as dumbed downed versions of previous iterations or stream lined versions of previous installments.

I agree. People complained that Skyrim had map markers that told you where to go to complete quests... seriously? Because my favorite part of any game is wandering around aimlessly for hours.

For me, a dumbed down game is one that is more shallow. For instance, Resident Evil five and six were dumbed down. They lost any gameplay depth the other games had. RE4 was more action oriented, but it still had horror elements, the pacing was fantastic, and the structure of the levels was excellent. None of this was true for the sequels. Arkham City also felt dumbed down. In the first game a gunshot could kill you easily, so you were encouraged to prioritize ambushes over combat. In the sequel you could easily beat gun carrying opponents, and the combat became the emphasis. This took the complexity out of the game, eliminated challenge, and hurt the tone of the game. It was dumbed down.

A streamlined game is one that eradicates unnecessary elements, and simplifies and improves other elements. Mass Effect 2 felt streamlined. I like exploration, but finding anything in Mass Effect 1 was a nightmare. It was easy to get lost in the massive Citadel streets. The sequel had creative, atmospheric environments, like Omega, but it was still easy to find where everything was. It felt expansive, but you didn't get lost. I found the layer easier to traverse, but immersive. This was streamlined.

 

[Souplex]

Streamlined is removing unnecessary elements to make things better across all levels of play. (Such as the removal of the broken stat system in Skyrim, or the removal of Dual Wielding which was impossible to balance in Halo: Reach)

Dumbed-Down is removing more complicated elements to make things more accessible to new/bad players. (Such as the removal of almost everything in Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon.)

 

[LetalisK]

About the only example of a "Dumbed Down" game I can think of would be World of Warcraft: Cataclysm. They just kinda took a wrecking ball to nearly everything that made classes interesting and unique, as well as all the lore and story that made the game memorable in the first place.

Actually, Cataclysm caught shit for the exact opposite reasons. The talent trees were bloated messes and they significantly increased the difficulty of dungeons making CC a cornerstone of running them(as opposed to WotLK which was an AoE fest). Some of the things they did certainly were "dumb", but not "down".

 

[Scars Unseen]

Streamlined: Adding comprehensible controls to Dwarf Fortress

Dumbed Down: Adding comprehensible physics to Dwarf Fortress

 

[Thedutchjelle]

I would say streamlined is when they make it easier to access all necessary information or cut needless complexity that adds nothing except tedium to the game or was complex for complexities sake.

Dumbed down is removing of features and complexity that did add something (significant) to the game.

I would back this definition wholeheartedly. It's spot in in defining the net result of both.

Streamlined is a thing I wish they would do to the Far Cry 3 menus, Witcher 2 inventories and so on. A tangled mess with multiple pages and layers that feels needlessly complex.

Dumbed down is what happened between Morrowind -> Oblivion -> Skyrim. Different weapon classes were removed in favour of broader categories. An entire class of armour was removed and the number of wearable pieces lowered. The number of spells and spell schools was also significantly reduced. Character creation was appearance only and all stats were removed as well. The major/minor skills and star sign were also removed. The net result of the dumbing down was that every character could be anything, change at any point and had little unique about it.

This.

Streamline doesn't mean dumbed down. It can also mean "more accesible" or "more intuitive to use". Starcraft 1's techincal limitations made it very hard to control large groups of units and queue up orders. In Starcraft 2, workers can be set to collect resources automatically and you can queue up orders/select more units much easier. It didn't dumb down any strategy, it simply made the GUI easier and more intuitive to use.
Far Cry 3's menus were fucking horrible and if they can make those more easy to use then I can't really call that dumbing down either.

If at any point it feels like I'm "fighting" the game's mechanics or interface instead of playing it, then the game designer has failed.

 

[Sean951]

Do I have less menus to navigate to find relevant information I want? Hurray, it's been streamlined!

Do I have less menus to navigate because the relevant information was entirely removed? Boo, it's been dumbed down...



There are exceptions to this, like information being removed because it's very existence was obtuse, but otherwise tthe above is how I see it.