Student commits suicide after school refuses to do anything about bullying

[The Rogue Wolf]

Nothing's going to be done until the bullied kids stop killing themselves and start killing the bullies. End of. This country and all of its systems adore and support bullies as "assertive" and "go-getters", and put down bullied kids as "weak". It doesn't help things that many bullies are athletes, and we all know that this country worships sports.

So yeah. I don't condone or agitate for it, but the only way something will be done is if the bullies start dropping, because they are the only ones the system is interested in protecting.

 

[Saelune]

No, there are ways to deal with it. Its called punishing the bullies, and just the bullies. Its having the parents take responsibility for their kids. Its teaching kids to respect each other with basic dignity.

My US History teacher didn't just let kids be bullies, nor was he coy about it. But he was the teacher in charge of the Gay-Straight Alliance and the Football coach, and a great teacher and person, so ya know, a rarity.

Eventually my principal dealt with another atleast somewhat. Took me throwing a textbook at my bully and getting into a fight, but even just them being like "Hey, you were clearly being a bully, stop it" managed to get him off my back, even if I also had detention for a week.

I mean, there were still plenty of others, but the ones actually dealt with actually stopped, go figure.

I don't know ... see, I was a teacher for awhile ... and frankly parents often side with their kids. I flat out told parents their child was loud, disruptive, and abusive to their classmates and they straight up said to me; "Maybe you're just not connecting with them." There is literally no depths to which parents won't sink to put all responsibility on the teacher despite only having 45 minutes (at best) with their kid.

Perhaps, but atleast within school walls, students should be able to rely on teachers to help them. Maybe the bully will go home and be rewarded by their shit parents, but in class that shouldn't be how it is.

Plus there is no one simple answer to fix all the problems, not beyond the mere intent to fix it. But sitting on your asses saying "thems the breaks, that's how it is, theres nothing you can do" etc is actively not trying to solve the issue.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Perhaps, but atleast within school walls, students should be able to rely on teachers to help them. Maybe the bully will go home and be rewarded by their shit parents, but in class that shouldn't be how it is.

Plus there is no one simple answer to fix all the problems, not beyond the mere intent to fix it. But sitting on your asses saying "thems the breaks, that's how it is, theres nothing you can do" etc is actively not trying to solve the issue.

Teachers are not omniscient...

Sometimes it's hard enough just trying to maintain one's duty of care in protecting a student physically from their classmates ... much less psychologically. One class I had to fill in for, woodworking. They had apparently churned out hockey sticks and drove nails into turned balls of wood in a previous class, and started striking them at one student. Aiming to physically injure.

That was all before I even managed to get in and sit down, and take a headcount.

That's the kind of environment you're talking about.

 

[Saelune]

Perhaps, but atleast within school walls, students should be able to rely on teachers to help them. Maybe the bully will go home and be rewarded by their shit parents, but in class that shouldn't be how it is.

Plus there is no one simple answer to fix all the problems, not beyond the mere intent to fix it. But sitting on your asses saying "thems the breaks, that's how it is, theres nothing you can do" etc is actively not trying to solve the issue.

Teachers are not omniscient...

Sometimes it's hard enough just trying to maintain one's duty of care in protecting a student physically from their classmates ... much less psychologically. One class I had to fill in for, woodworking. They had apparently churned out hockey sticks and drove nails into turned balls of wood in a previous class, and started striking them at one student. Aiming to physically injure.

That was all before I even managed to get in and sit down, and take a headcount.

That's the kind of environment you're talking about.

I mean that if a student came to you directly for help, I hope you would have done something. I hope you would not just shrug your shoulders and say "I cant help you". Maybe you couldn't, but you could atleast try.

All I am asking is that people just put in the effort instead of just not even trying in the first place.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I mean that if a student came to you directly for help, I hope you would have done something. I hope you would not just shrug your shoulders and say "I cant help you". Maybe you couldn't, but you could atleast try.

All I am asking is that people just put in the effort instead of just not even trying in the first place.

I'm obliged to help. I'm obliged to report it. I'm obliged to refer the offenders to punishment.

I can't just be friends with a bullied student. I might beg a student counsellor to just casually talk to someone, whether they can make the time. I might try to look out for them during ground duty ... but I was never on ground duty all the time, nor could I be ... I had other stuff to do to prepare for other classes. At best you can moderate your immediate sphere of influence, which is practically fuck all for your standard classroom grunt in the meat grinder that was the public system.

As much as I was suckered into the romantic idea of; "Go where you're needed most. Go public education..." There is a reason why they sell that image, I quickly realised. It's because nothing changes and there's only so many times you can tell a student to not piss on another student from the second floor balcony of E-Block.

 

[Saelune]

I mean that if a student came to you directly for help, I hope you would have done something. I hope you would not just shrug your shoulders and say "I cant help you". Maybe you couldn't, but you could atleast try.

All I am asking is that people just put in the effort instead of just not even trying in the first place.

I'm obliged to help. I'm obliged to report it. I'm obliged to refer the offenders to punishment.

I can't just be friends with a bullied student. I might beg a student counsellor to just casually talk to someone, whether they can make the time. I might try to look out for them during ground duty ... but I was never on ground duty all the time, nor could I be ... I had other stuff to do to prepare for other classes. At best you can moderate your immediate sphere of influence, which is practically fuck all for your standard classroom grunt in the meat grinder that was the public system.

As much as I was suckered into the romantic idea of; "Go where you're needed most. Go public education..." There is a reason why they sell that image, I quickly realised. It's because nothing changes and there's only so many times you can tell a student to not piss on another student from the second floor balcony of E-Block.

I should warn you, my US History teacher has embedded an idealized version of what a teacher should be to me by being that amazing teacher. If he had taught at some shitty inner-city school, they would have probably made a movie about him.

Plus I was that bullied depressed kid at school who felt that most teachers didn't even care. That teacher was one who gave me confidence, who was an adult I felt actually cared and if I needed help, I could go to. Wish I knew him my first year instead of 3rd, maybe I would have taken advantage of that more often.

I'm not going to feel too bad for teachers, nor anyone in positions of power and responsibility, especially when its over people, even more so young people who are so easily swayed by their experiences at that time.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I should warn you, my US History teacher has embedded an idealized version of what a teacher should be to me by being that amazing teacher. If he had taught at some shitty inner-city school, they would have probably made a movie about him.

Plus I was that bullied depressed kid at school who felt that most teachers didn't even care. That teacher was one who gave me confidence, who was an adult I felt actually cared and if I needed help, I could go to. Wish I knew him my first year instead of 3rd, maybe I would have taken advantage of that more often.

I'm not going to feel too bad for teachers, nor anyone in positions of power and responsibility, especially when its over people, even more so young people who are so easily swayed by their experiences at that time.

Yeah, and that's kind of the problem isn't it? For starters, I did my job and I did it well. So much so I went from there to work in the Department. Secondly, I still keep in correspondence with one of my ex-students who went on to study history and museology. For which I'm pretty stoked given it was me who gave her some books on historiography and apparently she took what I said to heart. About what it means to witness and recreate an event in space and time. Extrapolate meaning from what is infinite in its retrospection and the different schools of thought that went into how one approaches such a daunting task.

I did good things with my time. But if you expect me to apologize for what is a Sisyphean task of proving my worth, save us both the trouble and kindly don't lecture me as to my work ethic. Most teachers out there deserve a movie about them. If I can say *one thing* about teachers, it's that the bad eggs are few and the good ones are truly decent, honourable, wonderful people. Many are better than me for certain, but that didn't stop me trying because of their example.

 

[Saelune]

I should warn you, my US History teacher has embedded an idealized version of what a teacher should be to me by being that amazing teacher. If he had taught at some shitty inner-city school, they would have probably made a movie about him.

Plus I was that bullied depressed kid at school who felt that most teachers didn't even care. That teacher was one who gave me confidence, who was an adult I felt actually cared and if I needed help, I could go to. Wish I knew him my first year instead of 3rd, maybe I would have taken advantage of that more often.

I'm not going to feel too bad for teachers, nor anyone in positions of power and responsibility, especially when its over people, even more so young people who are so easily swayed by their experiences at that time.

Yeah, and that's kind of the problem isn't it? For starters, I did my job and I did it well. So much so I went from there to work in the Department. Secondly, I still keep in correspondence with one of my ex-students who went on to study history and museology. For which I'm pretty stoked given it was me who gave her some books on historiography and apparently she took what I said to heart. About what it means to witness and recreate an event in space and time. Extrapolate meaning from what is infinite in its retrospection and the different schools of thought that went into how one approaches such a daunting task.

I did good things with my time. But if you expect me to apologize for what is a Sisyphean task of proving my worth, save us both the trouble and kindly don't lecture me as to my work ethic. Most teachers out there deserve a movie about them. If I can say *one thing* about teachers, it's that the bad eggs are few and the good ones are truly decent, honourable, wonderful people. Many are better than me for certain, but that didn't stop me trying because of their example.

I'm not asking -you- to apologize. Infact, discussing this with you surprises me a bit, since from what Ive seen, you aren't the type to be lazy and not try to fight things just because its hard.

I don't know you as a teacher, so I cannot personally say, but maybe you were infact one of the good teachers, and shouldn't take my words personally cause maybe they aren't even directed at you, but Ive experienced far more bad teachers than good, and plenty who may not be bad, but certainly don't see it as much more than a job to deal with. Its them who I am directing this at.

Ofcourse it also should not be an "us vs them" scenario, since to fix most if not all of these issues requires co-operation to really be effective. Students, teachers, parents, and other school faculty working together to fix the issues even if they are hard, complicated, or costly, instead of sitting on their hands and saying "that's just how it is".

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I'm not asking -you- to apologize. Infact, discussing this with you surprises me a bit, since from what Ive seen, you aren't the type to be lazy and not try to fight things just because its hard.

I don't know you as a teacher, so I cannot personally say, but maybe you were infact one of the good teachers, and shouldn't take my words personally cause maybe they aren't even directed at you, but Ive experienced far more bad teachers than good, and plenty who may not be bad, but certainly don't see it as much more than a job to deal with. Its them who I am directing this at.

Ofcourse it also should not be an "us vs them" scenario, since to fix most if not all of these issues requires co-operation to really be effective. Students, teachers, parents, and other school faculty working together to fix the issues even if they are hard, complicated, or costly, instead of sitting on their hands and saying "that's just how it is".

The reason why it rubs me the wrong way is because more often than not, even a struggling teacher isn't struggling because of the hassles of the job but rather because they're fighting everything else that shouldn't be a problem, but is. I can honestly say thjat the grand majority of teacher complaints I heard when operating at the Department, were about hearing teachers struggling to teach their classroom because of the parents of one child. One report I read was where a parent tracked them down on a Sunday, kept ringing their apartment buzzer, and demanded that they forfeit personal contact details other than their email address, so they could be reached any hour of the day.

A parent literally stalked a teacher to their home, and demanded they be an unpaid personal tutor.

I can, without a shadow of a doubt, say that parents are more often than not the key cause of problems in a school. Whether it's because a parent chooses to ignore why their child was failed or reprimanded, and would rather complain or publicly harass. Or even going so far to harass teachers online and even circulate 'petitions' in the community that called for direct harm and vilification of teachers at a school. Imagine what that might be like in *any other industry*? Would such a thing be tolerated so widely if it was a local doctor who simply refused to prescribe painkillers to a patient becuse the patient is not reasonably presenting a need for them?

Parents can be narcissistic, egotistical, psychopathic, violent creatures for which will stoop to any depths to make sure their kid passes any assignment rather than assume responsibility or preventative strategies set by a teacher to them to help raise their grades, improve their attendance or mollify bad behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have little means to prevent bullying, if the parents of the bully will do nothing and would rather cause a shitstorm whenever punitive measures are taken ... such as suspension/expulsion from school.

As I gave in my example above ... if bullies will bully even when they expect a teacher to be coming shortly, they'll bully off school grounds without second thought. No single teacher can police the world, and moreover if the grand bulk of teachers tried to do more than what the current avenues allow ... chances are that will merely stoke the flames.

With this kid that killed themselves. I guarantee you the bullying most likely went to the internet, on the street, over standard telecoms, etc. Places where no teacher can feasiblyact ... and what can a teacher say if a kid is bullying another kid off school grounds? How do teachers broach that? You send a letter home or a phone call to the parents of the bullied kid, and those parents of the bully ... but they are either powerless to do anything about it, or don't want to, regardless ... and make demands on schools to somehow extend their magical barrier of omniscience and guaranteed emotional shielding. Which is ridiculous.

No matter how effective a strategy, no matter how diligent a teacher, bullying is going to occur somewhere on the school grounds. Unless we wish to transform schools into prisons, with 100% monitored grounds, security guards, metal detectors in halls, and 15 foot razor-wired fences, no school can achieve a 0% violence rating. And that's just the physical bullying ... ostracism, verbal abuse, mind games, etc ... some of the absolutely worstg bullies with the maximum casualty rates inflicted have been 15-16 year old girls. Who transform conventional; ideas of bullying and turn it into a art form for which isn't immediately noticeable from the forefront, and almost indescribable to many students even if they do seek help.

There is no silver bullet for bullying. If there were we'd do it, so long as it didn't violate basic human rights.

Teachers do not have anywhere near the powers of amelioration or mediation that you assume they do. Kids know they're untouchable already ... basically the school grounds is the only barely moderated mess it is because there's a handful of teachers for *thousands* of students on playground duty. Moreover kids have gotten newer ways to bully than ever before.

Teachers are losing the war ... but the reasons why have nothing to do with them and are beyond their powers to mitigate. Simply telling them to; "Do more..." is highly unhelpful, and downright insulting.

 

[Saelune]

I'm not asking -you- to apologize. Infact, discussing this with you surprises me a bit, since from what Ive seen, you aren't the type to be lazy and not try to fight things just because its hard.

I don't know you as a teacher, so I cannot personally say, but maybe you were infact one of the good teachers, and shouldn't take my words personally cause maybe they aren't even directed at you, but Ive experienced far more bad teachers than good, and plenty who may not be bad, but certainly don't see it as much more than a job to deal with. Its them who I am directing this at.

Ofcourse it also should not be an "us vs them" scenario, since to fix most if not all of these issues requires co-operation to really be effective. Students, teachers, parents, and other school faculty working together to fix the issues even if they are hard, complicated, or costly, instead of sitting on their hands and saying "that's just how it is".

The reason why it rubs me the wrong way is because more often than not, even a struggling teacher isn't struggling because of the hassles of the job but rather because they're fighting everything else that shouldn't be a problem, but is. I can honestly say thjat the grand majority of teacher complaints I heard when operating at the Department, were about hearing teachers struggling to teach their classroom because of the parents of one child. One report I read was where a parent tracked them down on a Sunday, kept ringing their apartment buzzer, and demanded that they forfeit personal contact details other than their email address, so they could be reached any hour of the day.

A parent literally stalked a teacher to their home, and demanded they be an unpaid personal tutor.

I can, without a shadow of a doubt, say that parents are more often than not the key cause of problems in a school. Whether it's because a parent chooses to ignore why their child was failed or reprimanded, and would rather complain or publicly harass. Or even going so far to harass teachers online and even circulate 'petitions' in the community that called for direct harm and vilification of teachers at a school. Imagine what that might be like in *any other industry*? Would such a thing be tolerated so widely if it was a local doctor who simply refused to prescribe painkillers to a patient becuse the patient is not reasonably presenting a need for them?

Parents can be narcissistic, egotistical, psychopathic, violent creatures for which will stoop to any depths to make sure their kid passes any assignment rather than assume responsibility or preventative strategies set by a teacher to them to help raise their grades, improve their attendance or mollify bad behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have little means to prevent bullying, if the parents of the bully will do nothing and would rather cause a shitstorm whenever punitive measures are taken ... such as suspension/expulsion from school.

As I gave in my example above ... if bullies will bully even when they expect a teacher to be coming shortly, they'll bully off school grounds without second thought. No single teacher can police the world, and moreover if the grand bulk of teachers tried to do more than what the current avenues allow ... chances are that will merely stoke the flames.

With this kid that killed themselves. I guarantee you the bullying most likely went to the internet, on the street, over standard telecoms, etc. Places where no teacher can feasiblyact ... and what can a teacher say if a kid is bullying another kid off school grounds? How do teachers broach that? You send a letter home or a phone call to the parents of the bullied kid, and those parents of the bully ... but they are either powerless to do anything about it, or don't want to, regardless ... and make demands on schools to somehow extend their magical barrier of omniscience and guaranteed emotional shielding. Which is ridiculous.

No matter how effective a strategy, no matter how diligent a teacher, bullying is going to occur somewhere on the school grounds. Unless we wish to transform schools into prisons, with 100% monitored grounds, security guards, metal detectors in halls, and 15 foot razor-wired fences, no school can achieve a 0% violence rating. And that's just the physical bullying ... ostracism, verbal abuse, mind games, etc ... some of the absolutely worstg bullies with the maximum casualty rates inflicted have been 15-16 year old girls. Who transform conventional; ideas of bullying and turn it into a art form for which isn't immediately noticeable from the forefront, and almost indescribable to many students even if they do seek help.

There is no silver bullet for bullying. If there were we'd do it, so long as it didn't violate basic human rights.

Teachers do not have anywhere near the powers of amelioration or mediation that you assume they do. Kids know they're untouchable already ... basically the school grounds is the only barely moderated mess it is because there's a handful of teachers for *thousands* of students on playground duty. Moreover kids have gotten newer ways to bully than ever before.

Teachers are losing the war ... but the reasons why have nothing to do with them and are beyond their powers to mitigate. Simply telling them to; "Do more..." is highly unhelpful, and downright insulting.

Like I said, there is a lot of work to do. Parents should not be allowed to do that, though people in general are shitty, and its not just parents that can be horrible like that.

And I never said teachers have to be Super Heroes stopping bullies across the world. But in school they should. Outside of school it becomes a parent's responsibility to take care of their own kid. It was the sister, not the parents, who mentioned how the kid felt. I honestly have to wonder where his parents were in all this, because they likely are at fault too if they aren't caring for their kid.

And again, you're trying to make me feel bad for people who well, kids are killing themselves, and its their side I'm on. Id rather everyone come out of all this kind of stuff ok, but if I have to choose between the welfare of a bullied student, a bully, or a teacher, I'm putting the bullied kid's needs first. Its not teachers literally killing themselves over this. (I'm sure there are a few examples, but I cannot imagine it comes even close to bullied kids' suicide rates)

 

[9tailedflame]

It's rough. A big problem is that the teachers and faculty are really terrible at reacting even when they do, often either painting a target on the bullied kid's head and making it worse, or punishing everyone involved, including the victim, sometimes only the victim, because it's all they know how to do. And when it's happening outside school, that just makes things even harder to deal with.

A big part of the problem is that kids in elementary/middle school are naturally the worst people in the world, and they can't help it, and their parents don't do anything.

 

[RaikuFA]

I'm not asking -you- to apologize. Infact, discussing this with you surprises me a bit, since from what Ive seen, you aren't the type to be lazy and not try to fight things just because its hard.

I don't know you as a teacher, so I cannot personally say, but maybe you were infact one of the good teachers, and shouldn't take my words personally cause maybe they aren't even directed at you, but Ive experienced far more bad teachers than good, and plenty who may not be bad, but certainly don't see it as much more than a job to deal with. Its them who I am directing this at.

Ofcourse it also should not be an "us vs them" scenario, since to fix most if not all of these issues requires co-operation to really be effective. Students, teachers, parents, and other school faculty working together to fix the issues even if they are hard, complicated, or costly, instead of sitting on their hands and saying "that's just how it is".

The reason why it rubs me the wrong way is because more often than not, even a struggling teacher isn't struggling because of the hassles of the job but rather because they're fighting everything else that shouldn't be a problem, but is. I can honestly say thjat the grand majority of teacher complaints I heard when operating at the Department, were about hearing teachers struggling to teach their classroom because of the parents of one child. One report I read was where a parent tracked them down on a Sunday, kept ringing their apartment buzzer, and demanded that they forfeit personal contact details other than their email address, so they could be reached any hour of the day.

A parent literally stalked a teacher to their home, and demanded they be an unpaid personal tutor.

I can, without a shadow of a doubt, say that parents are more often than not the key cause of problems in a school. Whether it's because a parent chooses to ignore why their child was failed or reprimanded, and would rather complain or publicly harass. Or even going so far to harass teachers online and even circulate 'petitions' in the community that called for direct harm and vilification of teachers at a school. Imagine what that might be like in *any other industry*? Would such a thing be tolerated so widely if it was a local doctor who simply refused to prescribe painkillers to a patient becuse the patient is not reasonably presenting a need for them?

Parents can be narcissistic, egotistical, psychopathic, violent creatures for which will stoop to any depths to make sure their kid passes any assignment rather than assume responsibility or preventative strategies set by a teacher to them to help raise their grades, improve their attendance or mollify bad behaviour in the classroom. Teachers have little means to prevent bullying, if the parents of the bully will do nothing and would rather cause a shitstorm whenever punitive measures are taken ... such as suspension/expulsion from school.

As I gave in my example above ... if bullies will bully even when they expect a teacher to be coming shortly, they'll bully off school grounds without second thought. No single teacher can police the world, and moreover if the grand bulk of teachers tried to do more than what the current avenues allow ... chances are that will merely stoke the flames.

With this kid that killed themselves. I guarantee you the bullying most likely went to the internet, on the street, over standard telecoms, etc. Places where no teacher can feasiblyact ... and what can a teacher say if a kid is bullying another kid off school grounds? How do teachers broach that? You send a letter home or a phone call to the parents of the bullied kid, and those parents of the bully ... but they are either powerless to do anything about it, or don't want to, regardless ... and make demands on schools to somehow extend their magical barrier of omniscience and guaranteed emotional shielding. Which is ridiculous.

No matter how effective a strategy, no matter how diligent a teacher, bullying is going to occur somewhere on the school grounds. Unless we wish to transform schools into prisons, with 100% monitored grounds, security guards, metal detectors in halls, and 15 foot razor-wired fences, no school can achieve a 0% violence rating. And that's just the physical bullying ... ostracism, verbal abuse, mind games, etc ... some of the absolutely worstg bullies with the maximum casualty rates inflicted have been 15-16 year old girls. Who transform conventional; ideas of bullying and turn it into a art form for which isn't immediately noticeable from the forefront, and almost indescribable to many students even if they do seek help.

There is no silver bullet for bullying. If there were we'd do it, so long as it didn't violate basic human rights.

Teachers do not have anywhere near the powers of amelioration or mediation that you assume they do. Kids know they're untouchable already ... basically the school grounds is the only barely moderated mess it is because there's a handful of teachers for *thousands* of students on playground duty. Moreover kids have gotten newer ways to bully than ever before.

Teachers are losing the war ... but the reasons why have nothing to do with them and are beyond their powers to mitigate. Simply telling them to; "Do more..." is highly unhelpful, and downright insulting.

Like I said, there is a lot of work to do. Parents should not be allowed to do that, though people in general are shitty, and its not just parents that can be horrible like that.

And I never said teachers have to be Super Heroes stopping bullies across the world. But in school they should. Outside of school it becomes a parent's responsibility to take care of their own kid. It was the sister, not the parents, who mentioned how the kid felt. I honestly have to wonder where his parents were in all this, because they likely are at fault too if they aren't caring for their kid.

And again, you're trying to make me feel bad for people who well, kids are killing themselves, and its their side I'm on. Id rather everyone come out of all this kind of stuff ok, but if I have to choose between the welfare of a bullied student, a bully, or a teacher, I'm putting the bullied kid's needs first. Its not teachers literally killing themselves over this. (I'm sure there are a few examples, but I cannot imagine it comes even close to bullied kids' suicide rates)

I think if a teacher took their own life over what they had to deal with a few shit parents it'd really pinpoint the problem.

Still would like to beat the crap out of a really bad teacher.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Like I said, there is a lot of work to do. Parents should not be allowed to do that, though people in general are shitty, and its not just parents that can be horrible like that.

And I never said teachers have to be Super Heroes stopping bullies across the world. But in school they should. Outside of school it becomes a parent's responsibility to take care of their own kid. It was the sister, not the parents, who mentioned how the kid felt. I honestly have to wonder where his parents were in all this, because they likely are at fault too if they aren't caring for their kid.

And again, you're trying to make me feel bad for people who well, kids are killing themselves, and its their side I'm on. Id rather everyone come out of all this kind of stuff ok, but if I have to choose between the welfare of a bullied student, a bully, or a teacher, I'm putting the bullied kid's needs first. Its not teachers literally killing themselves over this. (I'm sure there are a few examples, but I cannot imagine it comes even close to bullied kids' suicide rates)

No... you've got thise arse backwards. The focus shouldn't be on the bullied kid. Apart from counselling and informing parents you've done everything you can to that point. The focus should be on parents who do nothing about their kids. Parents who will either ignore a teacher or raise hell and start bullying the school or the teacher to the point where they can lose their jobs.

I was amongst the first in the department to be like; "Yes!" ... when they discussed classroom monitoring devices. I say the solution will only present itself only when teachers can legally defend themselves ... make it cost more to libel a teacher who simply told them that their child is a terror in the classroom. Hard evidence can be had, after all.

Until teachers can be given greater means to defrnd themselves ... you won't put an end to the bullies who likely come from pretty horrible parentage to begin with. Give teachers the means to point and say; "I'm not a bad teacher, you are bad parents and you've infected your child with the same cruel streak."

Name and shame. Turn pisspoor parents and children into media starlets for all the wrong reasons. They're not 'wayward angels'... they're thugs.

 

[Saelune]

Like I said, there is a lot of work to do. Parents should not be allowed to do that, though people in general are shitty, and its not just parents that can be horrible like that.

And I never said teachers have to be Super Heroes stopping bullies across the world. But in school they should. Outside of school it becomes a parent's responsibility to take care of their own kid. It was the sister, not the parents, who mentioned how the kid felt. I honestly have to wonder where his parents were in all this, because they likely are at fault too if they aren't caring for their kid.

And again, you're trying to make me feel bad for people who well, kids are killing themselves, and its their side I'm on. Id rather everyone come out of all this kind of stuff ok, but if I have to choose between the welfare of a bullied student, a bully, or a teacher, I'm putting the bullied kid's needs first. Its not teachers literally killing themselves over this. (I'm sure there are a few examples, but I cannot imagine it comes even close to bullied kids' suicide rates)

No... you've got thise arse backwards. The focus shouldn't be on the bullied kid. Apart from counselling and informing parents you've done everything you can to that point. The focus should be on parents who do nothing about their kids. Parents who will either ignore a teacher or raise hell and start bullying the school or the teacher to the point where they can lose their jobs.

I was amongst the first in the department to be like; "Yes!" ... when they discussed classroom monitoring devices. I say the solution will only present itself only when teachers can legally defend themselves ... make it cost more to libel a teacher who simply told them that their child is a terror in the classroom. Hard evidence can be had, after all.

Until teachers can be given greater means to defrnd themselves ... you won't put an end to the bullies who likely come from pretty horrible parentage to begin with. Give teachers the means to point and say; "I'm not a bad teacher, you are bad parents and you've infected your child with the same cruel streak."

What kind of monitoring devices?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

What kind of monitoring devices?

Whiteboard camera and audio devices ... this was just a suggestion thrown out there so that parents could see for themselves how their child acted up. It got struck down for privacy concerns and because it would be a PR nightmare.

 

[Saelune]

What kind of monitoring devices?

Whiteboard camera and audio devices ... this was just a suggestion thrown out there so that parents could see for themselves how their child acted up. It got struck down for privacy concerns and because it would be a PR nightmare.

I get the idea. Certainly physical proof would be useful, but I wouldn't, as a student, want to always be filmed. (or in general). Audio wouldn't be so bad, but it also would be far easier to contest.

Would help if schools didn't just buckle under a few noisy parents...for the wrong reasons. Also other parents are probably a good defense against terrible parents. I don't know the full workings of schools (not that you're gonna disagree with me there) I just hate the idea of "The customer is always right" which is certainly similar to how schools tend to deal with loud parents.

I certainly wish I had all the answers, I just don't want the victimized students to be the ones to lose, if someone has to "lose". That is where my concerns lie, even if that's not where the focus should be put to solve the problem. I certainly don't disagree that bad parents are well, the cause of a lot of issues, not just in schools.

I'm just more ok with a teacher losing a job than a kid losing a life.

 

[votemarvel]

I was bullied in school and did everything I was supposed to. Told my parents, told my teachers, told his parents, told the headmaster.

The bullying didn't stop until I flipped the one day and delivered him a beating. I wish it wasn't the case but sometimes violence is the answer, sometimes it is the only language that the bully understands.

Problem is that teachers, and it is truer today than when I was a kid, have no power to do anything but tell the person what they are doing is wrong. It would take something newspaper worthy for schools to do anything about bullying because they don't want to damage their school reputation by excluding people.

A friend of mine who is a teacher told me about how all they are allowed to do to stop a fight is to bearhug one of those involved, yet the Union he is a member off said not to do even that simply because all it would take is one of those students to say "Mr. So and So touched me" and that would be it for his teaching career.

We can't stop bullying because we've taken away the power of people to be able to stop it.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I was bullied in school and did everything I was supposed to. Told my parents, told my teachers, told his parents, told the headmaster.

The bullying didn't stop until I flipped the one day and delivered him a beating. I wish it wasn't the case but sometimes violence is the answer, sometimes it is the only language that the bully understands.

Problem is that teachers, and it is truer today than when I was a kid, have no power to do anything but tell the person what they are doing is wrong. It would take something newspaper worthy for schools to do anything about bullying because they don't want to damage their school reputation by excluding people.

A friend of mine who is a teacher told me about how all they are allowed to do to stop a fight is to bearhug one of those involved, yet the Union he is a member off said not to do even that simply because all it would take is one of those students to say "Mr. So and So touched me" and that would be it for his teaching career.

We can't stop bullying because we've taken away the power of people to be able to stop it.

Amen ... this is the problem, certainly. There's a specific martial art they were talking about mass instructing to teachers back when I first went to university. I forget what it's called, but it certainly puts the 'ridiculously defensive' into self-defence. Bear hugs, common shielding techniques, even as a student wails on you or other students with a chair. I was in the army, I learnt what self-defence looks like, at least. What they wanted to teach is effectively the; "Please stop..." of martial arts. Like it's a fucking request.

While I was teaching, they started telling us we couldn't even snatch mobile phones out of people's hands, kick the backs of their chairs when they swing on them, or 'single them out' ... in any way. We have to 'ask' to be given over an electronic device. We have to ask for a student's opinion. We have to ask a student to pass on a note to their parents. It's like; "Okay, so what tools DO teachers have to make demands?" It's insane.

One of the things I used to do is hang at the back of the class showing a piece of video media or a slideshow. Watch which students were paying attention ... and at the end tailor my questions to 'punish' those who weren't paying attention at key times. Because it works when you turn the tables on students and you get their natural tendencies to jostle with their egos and redirect those energies into self-shepherding themselves. Nope, not anymore ... a student might feel 'upset' that they were 'picked on' because they weren't paying attention.

After all ... as a teacher I'm more worried about the student that isn't observant, insightful or focussed to study than I am the one who can answer every question I ask or effectively show ratiuonal or experiential conception of evolved ideas based on the materials given to them. It's not about being a tyrant. It's about sorting out issues before they become problems. Raising even underperforming students up and showing them the value of discipline and focus. School is not about proving merit ... it's about inculcating a respect for academia.

Even if they don't go to university ... inculcate in as many students as possible a desire to pursue truth and the agency to birth the conception of higher thought and critical thinking. That is what being a teacher is all about.

Oh, I'm sorry ... here's me thinking the students that weren't paying attention needed a quick lesson in why they should pay attention. Unless they want to look like idiots. You know, like you will do in any job ever if you don't pay attention. You'd think parents would be grateful for maximising their child's information retention, and making the most of their time in my classroom. No ... apparently I have to consider the feelings a student might have when asked to answer a question they can't because they weren't paying attention.

Teachers are not meant to be mediators, they're meant to be authority figures. Because children are too stupid to take care of themselves and act like adults. If you're not going to pay teachers more, or you're going to make unreasonable demands on them, at least thank them for their efforts and listen when they tell you what is needed. But instead we entrust that decision to parents and politicians. And look where it's gotten us.

If you don't give teachers the means to enforce their judgment, for as long as you get kids and parents making demands on teachers, you'll get bullies. Either in children or their parents. All you do is inculcate a belief that kids are special, angels ... all of them ... for which the system can't even touch, no matter how shitty they are as people. And all those bullied kids who should actually benefit from a realm of discipline and academia due to their means to best become the civil people you want in positions of power and further education will continue to be treated like shit in a system which makes all the wrong types of people untouchable.

Give teachers the means to lift a troublesome student by the scruff of the neck and not have to face thew wrath of overly butthurt, shitty parents who will do nothing about their own spawn ... then you can start seeing changes. Either that or put troublesome youths in some precursor armed national service, and see how hard real life is when someone is putting a 24 eyelet boot up their arse. Which is it, parents?

Burgess nailed it with A Clockwork Orange. Kids as untouchable bring that mentality into their careers after school, and perpetuate it with their own children. While not all parents of bad kids are bad people, the majority are because they do nothing about it. They hide behind excuses like; "It's only school... they'll drop out and do something else." If they get away with being shitty kids ... they'll bring that sentiment to everything afterwards. Break the cycle early and it ceases being a cycle.

 

[Strazdas]

Well yeah. Shouldnt have happened but it did. Not sure whats discussion value here. Were pretty much in agreement that bullying is bad.

Nothing's going to be done until the bullied kids stop killing themselves and start killing the bullies. End of. This country and all of its systems adore and support bullies as "assertive" and "go-getters", and put down bullied kids as "weak". It doesn't help things that many bullies are athletes, and we all know that this country worships sports.

So yeah. I don't condone or agitate for it, but the only way something will be done is if the bullies start dropping, because they are the only ones the system is interested in protecting.

Well we have started doing that. What was it called, ah yes, Columbine i believe. Didnt work out that well.

snip

I have nothing to contribute but i just wanted to say i fully enjoyed reading your rants in this thread.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I have nothing to contribute but i just wanted to say i fully enjoyed reading your rants in this thread.

Glad to entertain. I fully enjoy your lack of meaningful contribution either. Bullies bully because they get away with it. Pretty timeless, teachers being unnecessarily hamstrung by bureaucracy only means the bullying continues. People can say they're on the side of bullied kids but that rarely seems to correlate to schools and teachers having more powers to stop it. Merely pick up the pieces.

Less ranty for you?