Student Protest

[Danzaivar]

Though I'm against the increase in fees, I'm also against the Student's Union, since they don't seem to have a FUCKING ALTERNATIVE.

Yes they do. They said a while ago, on paper, that they advocate the 1% extra tax for the rest of your life (or whatever the value was) in the place of extra fees. Seemed like a great idea to me, too. There's always the odd millionaire who can make up for all the other middle peeps.

Yes because I would just LOVE to pay for a loan that I can never clear, rather than one I can work back to paying. Higher fees is the best choice in a bad bunch.

1%? Really? You probably lose that much money down the back of the couch every year. Put your personal machinations to one side and think about the effect of increased educational costs on a primarily tertiary industry based society for a few hours.

I see your point about the indefinite thing, but I think the idea is that those who don't make enough money to pay back the loan end up paying less, and those who make tonnes can help pay for anyone else. Meanwhile, it's only those who benefit from having a degree (and studies show that almost everyone does) who have to pay for it, rather than everyone else.

It's 3% of everything over £6,250. Currently we have 9% of everything over £15,000. That means if you earn more, you pay more, and you will eventually be free of it (Even if you don't pay it all, the rest disappears after 20 years). 3% of your income for LIFE on the other hand will always be with you.

The graduate tax hurts poor people more, the loans hurt the rich more. Plus the whole 'forever' thing is a real psychological barrier. I know I wouldn't have gone to uni if that was in place.

 

[Canid117]

Wait... you guys have to pay the government to go to college? Here in the states we just pay the school.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

Spoiler: quotes

Hey everyone, to catch up none UK residents and people not watching the news....

I would like to register my support for the protesters although you might want to add that this is almost entirely "south of the border" in England/Wales just now.

Yet another reason I am glad to be Scottish first, British second.

Regarding the effectiveness violence gets attention, I'm not saying its right I'm saying it works (see also terrorism) Also "everyone is calling it a disgrace" makes me laugh. France dissolves into chaos at a threat of raising the retirement age but a bunch of students making a protest where some cause a bit of trouble is a disgrace?

Different people different lives I guess.

Well actually it does effect Scottish unis but not Scottish nationals, Anyone wanting to go to a Scottish uni who isnt from Scotland still has too pay the increased amount. (Lucky people from Scotland = P)

Ur definatly right about the Disgrace thing, i woudnt say this was a disgrace, as far as violent protests go this is the least violent iv seen

Yea I thought I had indicated that with "almost entirely" then again I know there is a big international student community so... Heh, whatever I accept the lack of clarity in what I said before.

 

[bruunwald]

As a lifelong resident of California, I can say without irony or hesitation that violent protests absolutely do not work, are not worth the trouble, and accomplish nothing but destruction and unhappiness.

Every ten minutes here, some group or another either erupts into violence over some jury verdict, or outright plans to erupt into violence, said violence to be scheduled for later in the day.

Stuff gets broken, shops get looted, people get hurt and go to jail. The public at large thinks to itself, "they use any excuse to rob people" which totally buries what the protest was about. The only people who thrive on it and gain are the media, who use any threat of a protest to scare the fuck out of you to get you to watch the news.

It's a joke. Your mom taught you (hopefully) that violence was not the answer to a bad situation, and she taught you that for a good reason. Because at its core, it simply is true. Violence creates bad feelings that obscure meaning and cause people not to like you, not to trust you, and not to want to see things your way or do you any favors.

Seriously. Must that be pointed out at all? Is this not the common sense given a common rodent?

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. NO.

I was present at that protest today, and it was not students who stormed the building and caused the damage. It was a rogue gang who took advantage of the demonstration, please make note of this.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Well this was a pretty shitty protest. I'm currently in my third year at uni myself and i got spammed with invites to the "march" from my uni for a good solid week. it ended up being people making retarded hipster signs (most of which didn't make sense) and ended up leaving their signs all over the place and everyone pretty much bumming around most of london without a real purpose. It was a half assed protest which ended in violence, which made the "cause" lose face overall. The government will now inevitably raise the fee's anyway (then again they always were...what was a protest going to do to stop the goverment raising the fee's when their cutting back and raising prices in ALL aspects of the economy anyway) just to spite us and show that they don't negotiate with delinquents that go around causing chaos in a supposed peaceful protest.

Then again i had to pay £10K a year in this country anyway due to some shitty legal flaw, whilst i saw the same asshole professor park up his Bently in the parking lot. So either the uni is gonna fuck you (to make more money since, lets face it, their a business out to make money) or the goverment will. If anything its a good life lesson into the real world, get use to it.

Edit: Trying to avoid a political argument, but why the hell is Cameron in power? And more importantly, why isn't there a SINGLE party that doesn't sell out and go back on the promises they make during the elections? As i keep hearing, the government is there for the people and not vice versa. The current major parties are all equally full of shit so where does that leave the UK? :/

Well you clearly aren't even fully aware of what went on then.

Speaking as someone who took part in the protest, of around 50,000 people, I can assure you that not most of them were bumming around. And the protest did not end in violence. It was temporarily highjacked in order for some dickheads to cause violence, but it did not end or disrupt the protest.

 

[Chrono212]

Students stormed the Millbank tower and began protesting there. Windows were smashed and bonfires lit but no one was seriously hurt. The media is up in arms about it and everyone is calling it a disgrace. But is it?

It's a disgrace that our Headmaster, who is an open Conservative Party supporter, refused to allow any student in the Upper Sixth Form (Year 13) to leave school today to attend the protest.

Now, I'm over 18 and so legally an adult and I view that as firstly refusing me to exercise my democratic right to protest against the government's policies (peacefully, naturally) and secondly as a case of unlawful restriction of movement (I just made that up, but you get the gist).

Making a protest violent or wanting it to be violent from the outset is not a way to gain public support, which is mainly why you do an open demonstration, to attract support and interest in the issue that you are campaigning for.

 

[V TheSystem V]

I knew there was something I forgot to do today...

Same. I was thinking of going, but I went to see my friend in Cardiff instead as I had an inset day. He was a bit pissed off he forgot.

 

[acosn]

9000 pounds a year? at the current exchange rate between the USD and BPS that totals to $14,553.80 I pay the equivalent of 13,900.20 British pounds PER SEMESTER. And last i checked the consensus is that higher education in the UK is overall better than here in the US. Still think you guys are getting a raw deal?

Sounds easy on paper, doesn't it?
Have you compared the size of the economy of the US and the UK?
Have you compared the price of living in each country?
Have you compared the size of the actual employment market?
Have you compared the average & minimal pay in both countries?

Now you tell me why you guys are paying more than the people in UK.

It varies wildly in the US.

Naturally if you try to compare some diploma mill / community college to the UK system it won't stack up, but there's also a fair number of colleges, even public, with big budgets that bring in highly certified specialists in various fields.

As for the tax? It's a fact of life that taxes go up with inflation.

Having to triple the tax like that demonstrates a general stupidity surrounding it- just how badly does one need to drop the ball to need that kind of rate hike?

 

[hawkeye52]

i was there today and i managed to get out of the tory headquaters area before it turned vaguely violent but it was mostly peaceful. i was one of the peaceful protesters but one of the people i was with was on that roof and managed to found a room full of fruit

 

[Narwal]

My friends were there, just for the fun of it. Silly friends.

 

[Kirkby]

Students stormed the Millbank tower and began protesting there. Windows were smashed and bonfires lit but no one was seriously hurt. The media is up in arms about it and everyone is calling it a disgrace. But is it?

It's a disgrace that our Headmaster, who is an open Conservative Party supporter, refused to allow any student in the Upper Sixth Form (Year 13) to leave school today to attend the protest.

Now, I'm over 18 and so legally an adult and I view that as firstly refusing me to exercise my democratic right to protest against the government's policies (peacefully, naturally) and secondly as a case of unlawful restriction of movement (I just made that up, but you get the gist).

Making a protest violent or wanting it to be violent from the outset is not a way to gain public support, which is mainly why you do an open demonstration, to attract support and interest in the issue that you are campaigning for.

Thats bad, your legally an adult you shoudnt have to be there if u dont want to, never mind loose the right to protest

 

[RocksW]

They did that in ireland too, my dad works in the department of finance (not a very popular job ATM...) And there was a peaceful protest about the same issue but some dickheads took it too far and stormed the front of the building... The majority was peaceful, it was just a few wankers who took it too far. He had to be escorted in by police in riot gear.

Totally stupid. All they did was piss off the receptionist. Does she have ANYTHING to do with the fee increase? No.

 

[AcidLillies]

Something slightly off topic, yet still vaguely relevant.

I find it quite arbitary that these pricks (I dislike the word but, I feel that it's appropriate) thrust VAT up and damage the lower/lower-middle class immensely, and say society is fair and that EVERYOBODY IS FACING THE DIFFICULTY WE FACE. Are you fuck. Oh, dear, I can't afford to take my fifth holiday this year and can't afford to sustain my private villa on the med for another year. Shame, I'll have to be content that I can put all of my eton graduate kiddies through Oxford, and have them take up high ranking political and public sector jobs; earning more than I possibly ever did and let them consider the joys of conservative tory rule. Oh, dear.

Fuck you. Royally.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

 

[Danny Ocean]

It's 3% of everything over £6,250. Currently we have 9% of everything over £15,000. That means if you earn more, you pay more, and you will eventually be free of it (Even if you don't pay it all, the rest disappears after 20 years). 3% of your income for LIFE on the other hand will always be with you.

The graduate tax hurts poor people more, the loans hurt the rich more. Plus the whole 'forever' thing is a real psychological barrier. I know I wouldn't have gone to uni if that was in place.

Fair enough. I suppose that's why I support the graduate tax. Perhaps if they made it a sliding scale of, like, 0.1-1%, depending on how well you do.

That'd be horribly complicated, though. Bleh. I can't change things anyway.

 

[Lordedubs]

big deal I payed 30,000 for college here in the US, I of course am still assuming that the pound is still 3x the value of the American dollar. but as a post above said, I don't condone violence or destructive behavior it does undermine the purpose of a peaceful protest, I have attended my share of anti-war protests and the shit always hits the fan when someone starts breaking stuff. if you are passionate about your cause that's one thing but to start breaking stuff is different. It destroys what your working for by drawing the attention away from the cause and brings the focus to the destructive act and in the end it really accomplishes nothing, ie Malcolm X vs Martin Luther King Jr during the civil rights moment here in America, or looks at Gandhi's example as well. Peace may be slower than violent revolution but its fruits last exponentially longer.

 

[spartan231490]

Hey everyone, to catch up none UK residents and people not watching the news....

First of all in the UK the government is raising the annual fee of £3000 to £9000 for university students, this has caused a lot of anger and today a protest turned a little violent today.

Students stormed the Millbank tower and began protesting there. Windows were smashed and bonfires lit but no one was seriously hurt. The media is up in arms about it and everyone is calling it a disgrace. But is it?

I mean as far as i know no ones been hurt and the most violent thing i saw was window smashing and its gotten the nations attention, unlike every other "peaceful" protest so maybe something will now be done.

So topic for discussion.. If youv been following this on the news are you for or against this protest? If you dont live in the UK/dont know wtf is going on, do you think peaceful protests are effective? Or is it sometimes good to cause a stir to raise awareness for an important cause

p.s just to state its important to remember there have been no serious injuries, obviously very violent protests are always wrong

Peaceful protests can change things, but it takes a long time and usually a lot of protesters get hurt. Look at what happened to followers of ghandi and Martin Luther king. I have no problem with protests that commit violence in the form of vandalism, but a protest that causes bodily harm to anyone is probably wrong, then it's a riot.

 

[superbatranger]

Does this remind anyone of the protests in France a while back?